Guest
Would a transmitter or receiver based on vacuum tubes survive and work after a nuclear EMP without a Faraday cage?
Thanks,
Michael
Thanks,
Michael
Guest
I'd say they have a hell of alot better chance.
Worked on a guy's amp and cassette deck that was not even turned on when lightning struck VERY close to the house.
The speaker realy would not engage, at first I changed the relay driver transistor but that was no good. Then I took and flat out shorted the coil to ground and the damn thing would not kick in even though there was a solid 12 volts on the other end of the coil.
From the same house - same customer an autoreverse cassette deck. When you went to reverse it would not play side B, but side A in reverse. This was the type that had the head with four heads in it, rather than flipping one head. They were switched by a relay and like the relay in the amp, this thing just would not kick in.
So, while they have a much better chance, I wouldn't count on it. You're liable to have shorted turns in the coils, which is obviously what happened to the units I described. Surprisingly there was about no damage to the transistors. Also the power transformers for example. Probably because they try to contain the flux in them and then even with the EMP the filters take it up. In fact in case nobody knew, if you got like Godzilla monoblock amplifiers with like 47,000 uF filtering in them, leave them on and they will serve as a surge suppressor for the rest of your audio system.
However it is is only for what gets induced on the AC line. The magnetic field of an EMP does not need the power lines to wreck your stuff. If the flux of any coil or transformer is not shielded the lightning is a one turn primary with a million amps going through it and the primary of your power transformer is how many turns ? And those relays that are practically microphones for magnetic field but that doesn't matter in normal operation. And plenty of RF coils like that as well.
You might be able to minimize the risk with careful design but the bottom line is that nothing is immune. And if you put everything in a metal box (Faraday cage) it won't work, at least as far as a radio or whatever. To commmunicate with the world, something must be exposed and thus exposed to a possible EMP.
And as lightning sometimes demonstrates, you do not need a nuclear bomb. In fact an EMPG is not a nuclear bomb. In fact they are alot cheaper and I bet the parts to make one are on a federal watch list. If not, maybe they are not feigning all of their stupidity. See, they want to look stupid so they can get away with shit. But with the PATRIOT ACT and all this bullshit, if they aren't watching for Muslims or American Patriots with EMPGs, they are either stupid or they want something to happen so they can pass more draconian laws. In other words, in 9/11 they were either complicit or incompetent. A half a fucking trillion bucks a year for defense and this shit happens ? And there are "college students" on a rooftop down the street getting video of it ? These punks knew about it but the whole of US intel did not ? Gimme a break. but then really, they could be that incompetent. I say execute them either way. Useless or malevolent, you want them around ? And the fucking guy who owned the buildings got extra insurance on them a couple days before. He knew but US intel didn't ? I ws born in the morning but not this morning. Fucking US intel knows when Putin takes a shit. And they had no clue, even tho90ugh they trained a couple of the hijackers. And only 3,000 dead. ALOT LOT more people than that worked there. How did they know to take the day off ? What, everyone knows about this except the people who are supposed to know about this ?
Heard of suitcase nukes ? Well I read that a pretty strong EMPG can be built small enough to be carried. Have any idea how much stuff doesn't work after you set one of those off ? You can disable most of the government's high tech weapons and they would be left with regular guns like the rest of us. Their tanks won't roll, their drones and planes won't fly and they have no communication.
you have brought up a serious government security issue that I don't see being addressed. I did not say national security because there is no national security. They couldn't care less about us, all they care is keeping their own ass clean when they piss people off enough to do shit. But this is one thing they may have overlooked, and it might be a good thing. If we can make a bunch of EMPGs somehow and take technology completely away from the government maybe we can fix things in this country.
But we do not have the solidarity to do that. They don't put front porches on houses anymore. Don't want people talking to each other. They got DUI laws to the point you can't go to the bar. And the media airtime has been bid up by big biz to the point where the Little Man will never get a word in edgewise.
Problem is EMPGs are extremely expensive. And really, it is easier to find plans for a nuclear bomb. Try it. But an EMPG is a viable option because it doesn't hurt people. (although those who have alot of hardware, like nose rings n shit might get a little tingle lol) Well it could hurt some, like those with pacemakers or other implants like those automatic insulin pumps.
Anyway, who fucked this country the worst ? Banks. Now everything is electronic, but they got all the money. Wipe out their memory and they will just keep your money this time.
Cool huh ? No bailout needed.
Worked on a guy's amp and cassette deck that was not even turned on when lightning struck VERY close to the house.
The speaker realy would not engage, at first I changed the relay driver transistor but that was no good. Then I took and flat out shorted the coil to ground and the damn thing would not kick in even though there was a solid 12 volts on the other end of the coil.
From the same house - same customer an autoreverse cassette deck. When you went to reverse it would not play side B, but side A in reverse. This was the type that had the head with four heads in it, rather than flipping one head. They were switched by a relay and like the relay in the amp, this thing just would not kick in.
So, while they have a much better chance, I wouldn't count on it. You're liable to have shorted turns in the coils, which is obviously what happened to the units I described. Surprisingly there was about no damage to the transistors. Also the power transformers for example. Probably because they try to contain the flux in them and then even with the EMP the filters take it up. In fact in case nobody knew, if you got like Godzilla monoblock amplifiers with like 47,000 uF filtering in them, leave them on and they will serve as a surge suppressor for the rest of your audio system.
However it is is only for what gets induced on the AC line. The magnetic field of an EMP does not need the power lines to wreck your stuff. If the flux of any coil or transformer is not shielded the lightning is a one turn primary with a million amps going through it and the primary of your power transformer is how many turns ? And those relays that are practically microphones for magnetic field but that doesn't matter in normal operation. And plenty of RF coils like that as well.
You might be able to minimize the risk with careful design but the bottom line is that nothing is immune. And if you put everything in a metal box (Faraday cage) it won't work, at least as far as a radio or whatever. To commmunicate with the world, something must be exposed and thus exposed to a possible EMP.
And as lightning sometimes demonstrates, you do not need a nuclear bomb. In fact an EMPG is not a nuclear bomb. In fact they are alot cheaper and I bet the parts to make one are on a federal watch list. If not, maybe they are not feigning all of their stupidity. See, they want to look stupid so they can get away with shit. But with the PATRIOT ACT and all this bullshit, if they aren't watching for Muslims or American Patriots with EMPGs, they are either stupid or they want something to happen so they can pass more draconian laws. In other words, in 9/11 they were either complicit or incompetent. A half a fucking trillion bucks a year for defense and this shit happens ? And there are "college students" on a rooftop down the street getting video of it ? These punks knew about it but the whole of US intel did not ? Gimme a break. but then really, they could be that incompetent. I say execute them either way. Useless or malevolent, you want them around ? And the fucking guy who owned the buildings got extra insurance on them a couple days before. He knew but US intel didn't ? I ws born in the morning but not this morning. Fucking US intel knows when Putin takes a shit. And they had no clue, even tho90ugh they trained a couple of the hijackers. And only 3,000 dead. ALOT LOT more people than that worked there. How did they know to take the day off ? What, everyone knows about this except the people who are supposed to know about this ?
Heard of suitcase nukes ? Well I read that a pretty strong EMPG can be built small enough to be carried. Have any idea how much stuff doesn't work after you set one of those off ? You can disable most of the government's high tech weapons and they would be left with regular guns like the rest of us. Their tanks won't roll, their drones and planes won't fly and they have no communication.
you have brought up a serious government security issue that I don't see being addressed. I did not say national security because there is no national security. They couldn't care less about us, all they care is keeping their own ass clean when they piss people off enough to do shit. But this is one thing they may have overlooked, and it might be a good thing. If we can make a bunch of EMPGs somehow and take technology completely away from the government maybe we can fix things in this country.
But we do not have the solidarity to do that. They don't put front porches on houses anymore. Don't want people talking to each other. They got DUI laws to the point you can't go to the bar. And the media airtime has been bid up by big biz to the point where the Little Man will never get a word in edgewise.
Problem is EMPGs are extremely expensive. And really, it is easier to find plans for a nuclear bomb. Try it. But an EMPG is a viable option because it doesn't hurt people. (although those who have alot of hardware, like nose rings n shit might get a little tingle lol) Well it could hurt some, like those with pacemakers or other implants like those automatic insulin pumps.
Anyway, who fucked this country the worst ? Banks. Now everything is electronic, but they got all the money. Wipe out their memory and they will just keep your money this time.
Cool huh ? No bailout needed.
P
Phil Allison
Guest
mrda...@gmail.com wrote:
** If by Faraday cage you mean a metal enclosure the answer is no.
EMP pulses can be up to 30kV per metre and that is lethal to electronics with any sort of cabling or antenna.
.... Phil
** If by Faraday cage you mean a metal enclosure the answer is no.
EMP pulses can be up to 30kV per metre and that is lethal to electronics with any sort of cabling or antenna.
.... Phil
J
Jim Thompson
Guest
On Sun, 20 Mar 2016 16:46:31 -0700 (PDT), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:
Probably... provided the circuit structure itself limits current flow
to non-destructive levels.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice
480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
The touchstone of liberalism is intolerance
Probably... provided the circuit structure itself limits current flow
to non-destructive levels.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice
480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat || E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
The touchstone of liberalism is intolerance
T
Tim Wescott
Guest
On Sun, 20 Mar 2016 16:46:31 -0700, mrdarrett wrote:
It's more resistant to EMP than semiconductor stuff, but a big enough
event would still kill it.
--
www.wescottdesign.com
It's more resistant to EMP than semiconductor stuff, but a big enough
event would still kill it.
--
www.wescottdesign.com
S
Sjouke Burry
Guest
On 21.03.16 0:46, mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:
During the cold war a lot of Russian planes used
tube based electronics, to withstand EMP shock.
Yep.
During the cold war a lot of Russian planes used
tube based electronics, to withstand EMP shock.
R
Ron M.
Guest
On Sunday, March 20, 2016 at 7:46:13 PM UTC-5, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
Even the best lightning protection won't stop a direct hit. Doesn't even guarantee reduced damage. Worked a site (20 Ch. trunking) near Baltimore that took direct hit on the transmit antenna (600 ft. guyed tower). Was to Mot. R-5600 standard. Vaporized the antenna, melted 600 feet of 2 inch hard line, site controller $$ (biggie back then) 3 stations, power co. ground lead, etc. Even blew the phone off the wall. What a mess. Approx $500,000 to fix..
Even the best lightning protection won't stop a direct hit. Doesn't even guarantee reduced damage. Worked a site (20 Ch. trunking) near Baltimore that took direct hit on the transmit antenna (600 ft. guyed tower). Was to Mot. R-5600 standard. Vaporized the antenna, melted 600 feet of 2 inch hard line, site controller $$ (biggie back then) 3 stations, power co. ground lead, etc. Even blew the phone off the wall. What a mess. Approx $500,000 to fix..
W
whit3rd
Guest
On Saturday, March 26, 2016 at 10:47:10 PM UTC-7, Ron M. wrote:
> Even the best lightning protection won't stop a direct hit. Doesn't even guarantee reduced damage.
When you have a lightning protect design at groundbreaking time, it can work quite well. All
the world's high-tech telescopes suffer lightning frequently, and have some
very effective hardening. The astronomers have to instruct the architects, though: such
protection as is mentioned in building codes isn't up to keeping electronics from
damage.
Boeing has been known to test airframes with a 200 kV spark generator...
> Even the best lightning protection won't stop a direct hit. Doesn't even guarantee reduced damage.
When you have a lightning protect design at groundbreaking time, it can work quite well. All
the world's high-tech telescopes suffer lightning frequently, and have some
very effective hardening. The astronomers have to instruct the architects, though: such
protection as is mentioned in building codes isn't up to keeping electronics from
damage.
Boeing has been known to test airframes with a 200 kV spark generator...
R
Ron M.
Guest
On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 11:38:54 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
This isn't a puny 200kv we're talking about here. Basic lightning bolt is millions of volts and 10,000's of amps. Probably a couple orders of magnitude difference between them power wise. Mind you this site was properly setup to Motorola R5600 standards which at the time were quite stringent and effective, usually. And they are specifically designed to minimize equipment damage. The site was newly built with all grounding, halo, spark gaps, static diffusers, etc. Just wasn't enough to deter nor defend the site on this occasion. Not an ordinary occurrence but still quite a mess to walk in to and have to repair. Have seen many where they caught a near miss or side spike and gaps and protection did their jobs while sacrificing themselves in the process. Have seen circulators totally blown apart on the inside. Not made to protect a transmitter in that way but they did anyway.
This isn't a puny 200kv we're talking about here. Basic lightning bolt is millions of volts and 10,000's of amps. Probably a couple orders of magnitude difference between them power wise. Mind you this site was properly setup to Motorola R5600 standards which at the time were quite stringent and effective, usually. And they are specifically designed to minimize equipment damage. The site was newly built with all grounding, halo, spark gaps, static diffusers, etc. Just wasn't enough to deter nor defend the site on this occasion. Not an ordinary occurrence but still quite a mess to walk in to and have to repair. Have seen many where they caught a near miss or side spike and gaps and protection did their jobs while sacrificing themselves in the process. Have seen circulators totally blown apart on the inside. Not made to protect a transmitter in that way but they did anyway.
W
whit3rd
Guest
On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 7:06:08 PM UTC-7, Ron M. wrote:
Oh, sure; Boeing didn't need to zap the plane from a mile away, they just put the spark
generator next to it. Peak current maybe 200kA, same as 'natural' lightning, though.
Same field stress, volts/meter, too. That's how you test for lightning, and planes DO
pass the test and remain flightworthy.
Oh, sure; Boeing didn't need to zap the plane from a mile away, they just put the spark
generator next to it. Peak current maybe 200kA, same as 'natural' lightning, though.
Same field stress, volts/meter, too. That's how you test for lightning, and planes DO
pass the test and remain flightworthy.