Using electric field to thin fuel

[The Doctor]

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

 

[the_dawggie]

On Nov 1, 6:29 am, The Doctor <doc...@nospam.com> wrote:

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

Hasn't this (similar) been done to death before?

--
Kipland.

 

[Dan----]

"The Doctor" <doctor@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9B4937EE2C43AdocwhoATbigpondDOTne@61.9.191.5...

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

A bottle of snake oil ?

---
Regards
Dan.

 

[George W Frost]

"the_dawggie" <the_dawggie@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0ed884c9-6902-4d63-88d9-2af5c77a712e@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 1, 6:29 am, The Doctor <doc...@nospam.com> wrote:

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

Hasn't this (similar) been done to death before?

--
Kipland.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


A design was made years ago for this, although it wasn't an electric charged
type
Think they used magnets to re-arrange the molecular structure of the fuel.

Something like Peter Brocks magic box

 

[TPr]

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

Because its bullshit?

 

[TT]

"The Doctor" <doctor@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9B4937EE2C43AdocwhoATbigpondDOTne@61.9.191.5...

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

It has been done before and will be done again. It is all bullshit.

Here is a basic test to apply to any device like this that you see
advertised. "If a simple device like this could deliver even a 5% increase
in fuel economy don't you think GM, Ford, Toyota etc would snap it up and
put it on their vehicles?" These guys spend Billions on more fuel
efficient vehicles and you really think some nut case in a back room can do
a better job? Or wouldn't you at least to expect to see it in F1 racing?

Cheers TT

 

[Mr.T]

"TT" <TTencerNoSpAm@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:Y6-dnQrarefCK5bUnZ2dnUVZ8q_inZ2d@westnet.com.au...

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!
http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

It has been done before and will be done again.

As long as there are gullible people with money anyway. You can more easily
"thin the fuel" by simply routing the fuel line closer to the exhaust
manifold anyway (not that it will improve economy though, unless possibly
the car was running too rich to start with, only if modern electronic fuel
injection and EG sensors are not in use)
However the fire risk may increase though

Here is a basic test to apply to any device like this that you see
advertised. "If a simple device like this could deliver even a 5% increase
in fuel economy don't you think GM, Ford, Toyota etc would snap it up and
put it on their vehicles?"

Hell a 1% *genuine* increase in fuel economy would be enough. But they have
proper test benches to accurately measure fuel consumption at all load
levels, something the snake oilers never bother with.

Or wouldn't you at least to expect to see it in F1 racing?

Peter Brock used it on his car didn't he

MrT.

 

[John_H]

The Doctor wrote:

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

It would seem that academia will resort to anything for the sake of
publicity these days!... You'd also have to wonder what effect money
might have on their "principles".

Perhaps John McCain will fix it! ;-)

--
John H

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:29:55 GMT, The Doctor <doctor@nospam.com> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

The following article refers to two sets of tests, one by the
researchers, the other by an Italian diesel engine manufacturer:

"Electrorheology Leads to Efficient Combustion"

R. Tao,* K. Huang, H. Tang, and D. Bell
Department of Physics, Temple University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
19122

http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/sample.cgi/enfuem/asap/html/ef8004898.html

This is a more technical article on rheology by the same researchers.
It is aimed at reducing the viscosity of crude oil for transportation
via pipelines:

"Reducing the Viscosity of Crude Oil by Pulsed Electric or Magnetic
Field"
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/sample.cgi/enfuem/2006/20/i05/html/ef060072x.html

This is a Wikipedia article on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrorheological_fluid

I notice that Tao's group has used a diesel Mercedes-Benz as their
test subject. Why not a petrol engined Chevrolet sedan? It seems to me
that the planet-saving potential of his magic device would be
maximised in the consumer car market.

The news article states that ...

"Temple [University] has applied for a patent on this technology,
which has been licensed to California-based Save The World Air Inc.,
an environmentally conscientious enterprise focused on the design,
development, and commercialization of revolutionary technologies
targeted at reducing emissions from internal combustion engines."

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:52:24 +0900, "TT" <TTencerNoSpAm@westnet.com.au>
put finger to keyboard and composed:

"The Doctor" <doctor@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9B4937EE2C43AdocwhoATbigpondDOTne@61.9.191.5...
Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

It has been done before and will be done again. It is all bullshit.

That was my first impression, and I'm still very skeptical, but the
researchers appear to have some independent test results that support
their claims, at least in respect of diesel engines.

Here is a basic test to apply to any device like this that you see
advertised. "If a simple device like this could deliver even a 5% increase
in fuel economy don't you think GM, Ford, Toyota etc would snap it up and
put it on their vehicles?"

The researchers claim that one Italian diesel engine manufacturer has
tested the device and obtained a 5% improvement on the dyno.

These guys spend Billions on more fuel
efficient vehicles and you really think some nut case in a back room can do
a better job?

The researchers are physicists based at a university.

Or wouldn't you at least to expect to see it in F1 racing?

It couldn't even be tested without serious modification. The
researchers found that at 1900 RPM the optimum electric field was
1kV/mm, and the minimum time required for the fluid to be subjected to
the field was 5 seconds. The fuel flow under racing conditions would
be an order of magnitude greater, which would mean that the device
would need to be much longer. Of course you could have one small
device per cylinder ...

Cheers TT

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"The Doctor" <doctor@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9B4937EE2C43AdocwhoATbigpondDOTne@61.9.191.5...

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

**In very cold conditions, decreasing the viscosity of Diesel makes sense.
It has been done before. These guys:

http://www.tycothermal.com/australia/english/specialty_heating/

Have some excellent products. Formerly Raychem.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[terryc]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:20:48 +1100, Franc Zabkar wrote:

On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:52:24 +0900, "TT" <TTencerNoSpAm@westnet.com.au> put
finger to keyboard and composed:


"The Doctor" <doctor@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9B4937EE2C43AdocwhoATbigpondDOTne@61.9.191.5...
Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

It has been done before and will be done again. It is all bullshit.

That was my first impression, and I'm still very skeptical, but the
researchers appear to have some independent test results that support
their claims, at least in respect of diesel engines.

Yep, I've got an engineer mate who served as a ships engineer and he tells
the story of getting some thin (compared to the tar they had) russian
diesel fuel for the ship and "the old girl practically flew all the way
home"

Here is a basic test to apply to any device like this that you see
advertised. "If a simple device like this could deliver even a 5%
increase in fuel economy don't you think GM, Ford, Toyota etc would snap
it up and put it on their vehicles?"

The researchers claim that one Italian diesel engine manufacturer has
tested the device and obtained a 5% improvement on the dyno.

All the scamsters say that same sort of stuff.
Did they list the reference and did it check out?
Or is this "trust me, would I lie to you" all over again?

 

[TT]

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:vmnpg49rkv2vluvoic803ocnnv37gd8n8e@4ax.com...

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:29:55 GMT, The Doctor <doctor@nospam.com> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

The following article refers to two sets of tests, one by the
researchers, the other by an Italian diesel engine manufacturer:

"Electrorheology Leads to Efficient Combustion"

R. Tao,* K. Huang, H. Tang, and D. Bell
Department of Physics, Temple University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
19122

http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/sample.cgi/enfuem/asap/html/ef8004898.html

This is a more technical article on rheology by the same researchers.
It is aimed at reducing the viscosity of crude oil for transportation
via pipelines:

"Reducing the Viscosity of Crude Oil by Pulsed Electric or Magnetic
Field"
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/sample.cgi/enfuem/2006/20/i05/html/ef060072x.html

Heating it up will achieve the same result ;-)

This is a Wikipedia article on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrorheological_fluid

I notice that Tao's group has used a diesel Mercedes-Benz as their
test subject. Why not a petrol engined Chevrolet sedan? It seems to me
that the planet-saving potential of his magic device would be
maximised in the consumer car market.

Because it doesn't work! Listen, it is quite simple. In a modern petrol

engine meeting stringent emission standards the fuel system is calibrated by
mass and not volume. Unless you are claiming this device changes the mass
of the fuel molecules then it cannot work. We also have oxygen sensors in
the exhaust system to finely calibrate the whole process. Diesel engines are
just about there as well.

The news article states that ...

"Temple [University] has applied for a patent on this technology,
which has been licensed to California-based Save The World Air Inc.,
an environmentally conscientious enterprise focused on the design,
development, and commercialization of revolutionary technologies
targeted at reducing emissions from internal combustion engines."

Applying for a patent does not necessarily mean the thing works.

Regardless of the viscosity of petrol it is optimally at 14.7:1 by mass.
Some manufacturers run leaner but it tops out at approximately 16:1. So if
anyone can convince me that changing viscosity of fuel in a modern engine
achieves something then please go ahead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio for some light reading

- Franc Zabkar

BTW I was involved (many years ago) looking at testing procedures with water
injection on petrol engines. Some very good results were gained but only
after very un-ordinary testing on a dyno. e.g humidity levels at near zero
and the engine running at extreme temperatures. When tested under normal
conditions it actually made things worse! So horses (horespowers) for
courses ;-) So in this testing where they achieved these results I would
have liked to have seen it for myself because *IF* they actually achieved it
then I would like to have seen how they cooked the results ;-)


Cheers TT forever sceptical ;-)

 

[TT]

"terryc" <newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
newsan.2008.11.02.01.45.27.717227@woa.com.au...

On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:20:48 +1100, Franc Zabkar wrote:

Or is this "trust me, would I lie to you" all over again?

"Trust me, I used to be a used car salesman before I started flogging this

shit" ) That is the usual scenario.

Cheers TT

 

[Mr.T]

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:vmnpg49rkv2vluvoic803ocnnv37gd8n8e@4ax.com...

This is a more technical article on rheology by the same researchers.
It is aimed at reducing the viscosity of crude oil for transportation
via pipelines:

Reducing the Viscosity of Crude Oil by Pulsed Electric or Magnetic
Field"
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/sample.cgi/enfuem/2006/20/i05/html/ef060072x.ht
ml

Which is obviously a more appropriate use, since there is no evidence
tendered that reducing the viscosity of the fuel actually leads to increased
efficiency when used in a properly tuned car engine in the first place.

MrT.

 

[Mr.T]

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:v9opg4hg0nb8lpuv6nhnoema2tgict4g7s@4ax.com...

Or wouldn't you at least to expect to see it in F1 racing?

It couldn't even be tested without serious modification. The
researchers found that at 1900 RPM the optimum electric field was
1kV/mm, and the minimum time required for the fluid to be subjected to
the field was 5 seconds. The fuel flow under racing conditions would
be an order of magnitude greater, which would mean that the device
would need to be much longer. Of course you could have one small
device per cylinder ...

Actually they say the effect lasts for a couple of hours, so could obviously
be done in the fueling rig before it even goes into the racing car. Therfore
no weight penalty, or other problems.

MrT.

 

[Mr.T]

"the_dawggie" <the_dawggie@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:624bab18-2db7-4ac5-a2fd-6eed802fc146@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...

Well 'lux turbo diesel made it to North Pole.

I'll bet they used a fuel additive though!
(Commonly added to diesel in all extremely cold climates.)

MrT.

 

[the_dawggie]

On Nov 2, 10:22 am, "Trevor Wilson"
<trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

"The Doctor" <doc...@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:Xns9B4937EE2C43AdocwhoATbigpondDOTne@61.9.191.5...

Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

**In very cold conditions, decreasing the viscosity of Diesel makes sense..
It has been done before. These guys:

http://www.tycothermal.com/australia/english/specialty_heating/

Have some excellent products. Formerly Raychem.

--
Trevor Wilsonwww.rageaudio.com.au

Well 'lux turbo diesel made it to North Pole.

--
Kipland.

 

[Bernd Felsche]

"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:

"the_dawggie" <the_dawggie@hotmail.com> wrote:

Well 'lux turbo diesel made it to North Pole.

I'll bet they used a fuel additive though!
(Commonly added to diesel in all extremely cold climates.)

That'd be called "petrol".
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | Science is the belief in
X against HTML mail | the ignorance of the experts.
/ \ and postings | -- Richard Feynman

 

[TT]

"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:490d12e1$0$18424$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:vmnpg49rkv2vluvoic803ocnnv37gd8n8e@4ax.com...
This is a more technical article on rheology by the same researchers.
It is aimed at reducing the viscosity of crude oil for transportation
via pipelines:

Reducing the Viscosity of Crude Oil by Pulsed Electric or Magnetic
Field"
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/sample.cgi/enfuem/2006/20/i05/html/ef060072x.ht
ml


Which is obviously a more appropriate use, since there is no evidence
tendered that reducing the viscosity of the fuel actually leads to
increased
efficiency when used in a properly tuned car engine in the first place.

MrT.

Tsk! Tsk! You can't see the relevance between the Trans Siberian Oil

Pipeline, transporting near frozen crude oil and a modern petrol engine?!
)

BTW I do hope you (and others) read my comments on modern fuel injection
systems work on the mass of the fuel and not the volume. Even modern common
rail diesel engines are now computer controlled and even take into account
the fuel temp before injection.

What most here are losing sight of is that in this day and age with
stringent emission standards (diesel and petrol) fuel economy is the bonus.
Too lean a mixture and CO, NOx emissions go up, too rich and hydrocarbons
are flung out the exhaust. So therefore perfect combustion at optimum fuel
ratio is not only desirable but a must.

I don't care what this device claims to do for IC engines it just can't
happen at the percentages they claim!

Cheers TT