US kitchen blenders on 230V - modification w/o using trans

K

kristian

Guest
Have bought a nice collection of vintage waring blenders (mainly
one-speed, a few multi speed ones, roughly 400w power on all of them).
They are currently sitting in my sisters small flat in Miami (poor
girl!) but the intention is to have them transported to Norway
somehow. Blenders only became popular in norway in the second half of
the nineties maybe... so these still working antiques would be super
exotic over here.

But as in most (all?) of europe the electric supply here is 230V/50Hz.
The blenders are rated 115V, 3A, 25-60cycles (the ones from the
1940s-50s).

I have looked into power transformers and cheap converters like this
one:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005NN91/102-1583979-0272936?v=glance

The one above is small neat and affordable but i have read that these
may not be so great for motorised appliances. The alternative is then
a bulky and relatively expensive transformers which will not look very
at home on the kitchen bench. If only the blender itself could be
modified that would be just so much more elegant!

During my web searches i have understood that the blender motors are
probably of the universal type (AC/DC) with carbon brushes. And in one
article i came across a link to a product page:
http://www.gselectric.com/products/bpak.asp
The B-pak motor is here listed as voltage 100-255 VAC. Could it be
that such motors in general are suitable to run on very different
voltages and that the blenders may work straight from the net by only
changing the plug or some internal widget? Guess not....

BUT: Taking the one-speed toggle switch blender of the 1940s as an
example. What modifications are likely to be necessary in order to
have it run on 220v? Would it be more tricky to convert the multispeed
blenders?

I immediately imagine that such a conversion involves reducing the
number of windings on the rotor? But would that do the trick or are
there other things that need sorting out in order to acchieve proper
operation?
If replacing the windings is the way to go a formula for calculating
number of windings and wire cross section would be deeply appreciated.
Any things i should know about such operations (changing windings)? I
am quite a handyman but unfortunately have no great knowledge about
electrics....

Hope anyone can help out with this!

thanks!

kristian
 
I would not consider changing the motor, or messing in that area. You need
a real transformer to run a motor, because it is a reactive device. Also,
running the motor on 50 Hz is going to make it run hotter and a little
slower. The motor was designed for 60 Hz if it is from North America.

The low cost solid state voltage reducers use a Thyristor and drive circuit
device to chop the AC supply to the load, by shifting its phase. This phase
shift causes an equivalent duty cycle reduction in the AC supply to the
load. When reactive devices, such as transformers or motors are run with
this type of supply, then tend to not last very long.

--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"kristian" <kfet@broadpark.no> wrote in message
news:c23c7ab9.0312040702.4ed9ec25@posting.google.com...
Have bought a nice collection of vintage waring blenders (mainly
one-speed, a few multi speed ones, roughly 400w power on all of them).
They are currently sitting in my sisters small flat in Miami (poor
girl!) but the intention is to have them transported to Norway
somehow. Blenders only became popular in norway in the second half of
the nineties maybe... so these still working antiques would be super
exotic over here.

But as in most (all?) of europe the electric supply here is 230V/50Hz.
The blenders are rated 115V, 3A, 25-60cycles (the ones from the
1940s-50s).

I have looked into power transformers and cheap converters like this
one:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005NN91/102-1583979-0272936?v=glance

The one above is small neat and affordable but i have read that these
may not be so great for motorised appliances. The alternative is then
a bulky and relatively expensive transformers which will not look very
at home on the kitchen bench. If only the blender itself could be
modified that would be just so much more elegant!

During my web searches i have understood that the blender motors are
probably of the universal type (AC/DC) with carbon brushes. And in one
article i came across a link to a product page:
http://www.gselectric.com/products/bpak.asp
The B-pak motor is here listed as voltage 100-255 VAC. Could it be
that such motors in general are suitable to run on very different
voltages and that the blenders may work straight from the net by only
changing the plug or some internal widget? Guess not....

BUT: Taking the one-speed toggle switch blender of the 1940s as an
example. What modifications are likely to be necessary in order to
have it run on 220v? Would it be more tricky to convert the multispeed
blenders?

I immediately imagine that such a conversion involves reducing the
number of windings on the rotor? But would that do the trick or are
there other things that need sorting out in order to acchieve proper
operation?
If replacing the windings is the way to go a formula for calculating
number of windings and wire cross section would be deeply appreciated.
Any things i should know about such operations (changing windings)? I
am quite a handyman but unfortunately have no great knowledge about
electrics....

Hope anyone can help out with this!

thanks!

kristian
 
"Jerry G." <jerryg50@hotmail.com> writes:

I would not consider changing the motor, or messing in that area. You need
a real transformer to run a motor, because it is a reactive device. Also,
running the motor on 50 Hz is going to make it run hotter and a little
slower. The motor was designed for 60 Hz if it is from North America.

The low cost solid state voltage reducers use a Thyristor and drive circuit
device to chop the AC supply to the load, by shifting its phase. This phase
shift causes an equivalent duty cycle reduction in the AC supply to the
load. When reactive devices, such as transformers or motors are run with
this type of supply, then tend to not last very long.
Click to expand...
I agree that a real transformer is best.

Realistically, you're not going to rewind the motor. It would cost
way more than a dozen new blenders. Not something you can really do
at home either.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the Feedback Form at repairfaq.org. Thanks.
 
Jerry, Sam, Kristian:
Agreed ...... the real transformer will be the best solution for the
voltage problem but then, as Jerry G suggested, we are still left with the
issue of slower speed, less power and motor over-heating due to the lower
line frequency of 50Hz. My advice is to leave the blenders in the US and
Canada (you can sell them on EBay) and buy the proper appliances in Norway
that are designed to work with their power system.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Sam Goldwasser" <sam@saul.cis.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:6wd6b4zcah.fsf@saul.cis.upenn.edu...
"Jerry G." <jerryg50@hotmail.com> writes:

I would not consider changing the motor, or messing in that area. You
need
a real transformer to run a motor, because it is a reactive device.
Also,
running the motor on 50 Hz is going to make it run hotter and a little
slower. The motor was designed for 60 Hz if it is from North America.

The low cost solid state voltage reducers use a Thyristor and drive
circuit
device to chop the AC supply to the load, by shifting its phase. This
phase
shift causes an equivalent duty cycle reduction in the AC supply to the
load. When reactive devices, such as transformers or motors are run with
this type of supply, then tend to not last very long.

I agree that a real transformer is best.

Realistically, you're not going to rewind the motor. It would cost
way more than a dozen new blenders. Not something you can really do
at home either.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work.
To
contact me, please use the Feedback Form at repairfaq.org. Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
"Sofie" <sofie@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:vsv8rii97t5m44@corp.supernews.com...
Jerry, Sam, Kristian:
Agreed ...... the real transformer will be the best solution for the
voltage problem but then, as Jerry G suggested, we are still left with the
issue of slower speed, less power and motor over-heating due to the lower
line frequency of 50Hz. My advice is to leave the blenders in the US and
Canada (you can sell them on EBay) and buy the proper appliances in Norway
that are designed to work with their power system.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Click to expand...
But these are universal motors, the frequency shouldn't matter, they run
just fine on DC. I would try one of those cheap voltage converters that uses
diodes to drop it, should work just fine for one of those motors.
 
Sofie wrote:

Jerry, Sam, Kristian:
Agreed ...... the real transformer will be the best solution for the
voltage problem but then, as Jerry G suggested, we are still left with the
issue of slower speed, less power and motor over-heating due to the lower
line frequency of 50Hz.
Click to expand...
If performance is acceptable, he can derate the duty cycle to avoid
overheating the motor.

My advice is to leave the blenders in the US and
Canada (you can sell them on EBay) and buy the proper appliances in Norway
that are designed to work with their power system.
Click to expand...
But he's particularly attached to *these* blenders. Why shouldn't he use
his handyman skills to make an attractive transformer housing, maybe
shaped so the blender can sit on top of it.
 
On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:01:43 GMT, "James Sweet"
<jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Sofie" <sofie@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:vsv8rii97t5m44@corp.supernews.com...
Jerry, Sam, Kristian:
Agreed ...... the real transformer will be the best solution for the
voltage problem but then, as Jerry G suggested, we are still left with the
issue of slower speed, less power and motor over-heating due to the lower
line frequency of 50Hz. My advice is to leave the blenders in the US and
Canada (you can sell them on EBay) and buy the proper appliances in Norway
that are designed to work with their power system.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

But these are universal motors, the frequency shouldn't matter, they run
just fine on DC. I would try one of those cheap voltage converters that uses
diodes to drop it, should work just fine for one of those motors.
Click to expand...

In that case, wouldn't a simple diode in the line work?
 
<chris@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:6j60tvopka94rsrqv2muojka83p78dvj8u@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:01:43 GMT, "James Sweet"
jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote:


"Sofie" <sofie@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:vsv8rii97t5m44@corp.supernews.com...
Jerry, Sam, Kristian:
Agreed ...... the real transformer will be the best solution for the
voltage problem but then, as Jerry G suggested, we are still left with
the
issue of slower speed, less power and motor over-heating due to the
lower
line frequency of 50Hz. My advice is to leave the blenders in the US
and
Canada (you can sell them on EBay) and buy the proper appliances in
Norway
that are designed to work with their power system.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

But these are universal motors, the frequency shouldn't matter, they run
just fine on DC. I would try one of those cheap voltage converters that
uses
diodes to drop it, should work just fine for one of those motors.


In that case, wouldn't a simple diode in the line work?
Click to expand...
That's pretty much exactly what I just said.
 
Hint for Europeans trying to run US small appliances (120V-60HZ). Buy an
inverter, made for use in the US (ebay), 600 watts or larger, hook it up to
a 12 volt auto battery, and blend away. Advantages? Will run any
appliance, TV, electronics within its power rating, totally portable, no
changes whatsoever need be made to the appliance. You'll get square wave 60
HZ, but havent found a modern appliance (including TV, stereo) that couldnt
deal with it.
It may not be the prettiest solution, but it works, and you dont have to
change anything. Also comes in handy for emergency lighting if the mains
fail.
Dennis



"kristian" <kfet@broadpark.no> wrote in message
news:c23c7ab9.0312040702.4ed9ec25@posting.google.com...
Have bought a nice collection of vintage waring blenders (mainly
one-speed, a few multi speed ones, roughly 400w power on all of them).
They are currently sitting in my sisters small flat in Miami (poor
girl!) but the intention is to have them transported to Norway
somehow. Blenders only became popular in norway in the second half of
the nineties maybe... so these still working antiques would be super
exotic over here.

But as in most (all?) of europe the electric supply here is 230V/50Hz.
The blenders are rated 115V, 3A, 25-60cycles (the ones from the
1940s-50s).

I have looked into power transformers and cheap converters like this
one:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005NN91/102-1583979-0272936
Click to expand...
?v=glance
The one above is small neat and affordable but i have read that these
may not be so great for motorised appliances. The alternative is then
a bulky and relatively expensive transformers which will not look very
at home on the kitchen bench. If only the blender itself could be
modified that would be just so much more elegant!

During my web searches i have understood that the blender motors are
probably of the universal type (AC/DC) with carbon brushes. And in one
article i came across a link to a product page:
http://www.gselectric.com/products/bpak.asp
The B-pak motor is here listed as voltage 100-255 VAC. Could it be
that such motors in general are suitable to run on very different
voltages and that the blenders may work straight from the net by only
changing the plug or some internal widget? Guess not....

BUT: Taking the one-speed toggle switch blender of the 1940s as an
example. What modifications are likely to be necessary in order to
have it run on 220v? Would it be more tricky to convert the multispeed
blenders?

I immediately imagine that such a conversion involves reducing the
number of windings on the rotor? But would that do the trick or are
there other things that need sorting out in order to acchieve proper
operation?
If replacing the windings is the way to go a formula for calculating
number of windings and wire cross section would be deeply appreciated.
Any things i should know about such operations (changing windings)? I
am quite a handyman but unfortunately have no great knowledge about
electrics....

Hope anyone can help out with this!

thanks!

kristian
Click to expand...
 
"James Sweet" <jamessweet@hotmail.com> writes:

In that case, wouldn't a simple diode in the line work?

That's pretty much exactly what I just said.
Click to expand...
If it looks like a resistive load, a diode in the 230 VAC line gives you 4X the
power 0.5X the time. In other words, double the power. Not what you want.

Also, would need to check the motor specs. They may be universal motors
and are certainly physically constructed like universal motors but may
not be happy on pulsed 230 V!

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the Feedback Form at repairfaq.org. Thanks.
 
<chris@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:6j60tvopka94rsrqv2muojka83p78dvj8u@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:01:43 GMT, "James Sweet"
jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote:


"Sofie" <sofie@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:vsv8rii97t5m44@corp.supernews.com...
Jerry, Sam, Kristian:
Agreed ...... the real transformer will be the best solution for the
voltage problem but then, as Jerry G suggested, we are still left with
the
issue of slower speed, less power and motor over-heating due to the
lower
line frequency of 50Hz. My advice is to leave the blenders in the US
and
Canada (you can sell them on EBay) and buy the proper appliances in
Norway
that are designed to work with their power system.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

But these are universal motors, the frequency shouldn't matter, they run
just fine on DC. I would try one of those cheap voltage converters that
uses
diodes to drop it, should work just fine for one of those motors.


In that case, wouldn't a simple diode in the line work?
Click to expand...

No, that halves the power, not the voltage. ie .07 x 125 volts. Gives
you voltage equal to about 80 volts RMS.

Peter
 
"Sofie" <sofie@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:vsv8rii97t5m44@corp.supernews.com...
Jerry, Sam, Kristian:
Agreed ...... the real transformer will be the best solution for the
voltage problem but then, as Jerry G suggested, we are still left with the
issue of slower speed, less power and motor over-heating due to the lower
line frequency of 50Hz. My advice is to leave the blenders in the US and
Canada (you can sell them on EBay) and buy the proper appliances in Norway
that are designed to work with their power system.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Click to expand...
The original post stated:

"The blenders are rated 115V, 3A, 25-60cycles (the ones from the
1940s-50s)."

So, what is wrong with 50 Hz?

Pete
 
" Uncle Peter" <radioconnectionNO@cox.netSPAM> schreef in bericht
news:DP5Hb.11985$WQ3.8708@lakeread05...
"Sofie" <sofie@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:vsv8rii97t5m44@corp.supernews.com...
Jerry, Sam, Kristian:
Agreed ...... the real transformer will be the best solution for the
voltage problem but then, as Jerry G suggested, we are still left with
the
issue of slower speed, less power and motor over-heating due to the
lower
line frequency of 50Hz. My advice is to leave the blenders in the US
and
Canada (you can sell them on EBay) and buy the proper appliances in
Norway
that are designed to work with their power system.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The original post stated:

"The blenders are rated 115V, 3A, 25-60cycles (the ones from the
1940s-50s)."

So, what is wrong with 50 Hz?

Pete
Click to expand...
I missed the original post so my comment may be superfluous. As the blenders
specs. show there's nothing wrong running them on 50Hz. But you have to
provide the correct voltage as well. A diode will *not* divide the voltage
by two. It will half the time. It will half the power as well but this power
was *four* times too high without the diode. So it is still doubled and you
will toast your motor. Besides, a motor will not run very smooth when it's
only powered half the time. But a transformer will do perfectly. You may
find motor speed controlers (used for drills for instance) that can do the
job as well. You'd better use no common dimmers as they usually fail in
driving a inductive load. I consider a transformer to be the most safe
solution.

petrus


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