Update on: High gain current amplifier has excess noise

[alan]

I'm building a high gain current amplifier with a LT1793 and a 10GOhm
resistor. It has the following problems:

I measured the frequency response by blasting in white noise thru
another large resistor. The frequency response is relatively flat up to
about 100 Hz, has a very slight rise, and then falls off at a corner
freq ~200Hz with a rolloff that looks a little bit faster than 1 pole.
I tried that "RCR trick", but all that did was make the freq response
fall off more slowly, more like 1 pole. (This "trick" is supposed to
cancel out the parallel capacitance of the feedback resistor) It also
makes the noise of the amp fairly flat (with freq) so that at higher
frequencies, the S/N gets worse. I have tested this amp with and
without an additional 80pF worth of input capacitance (to simulate the
system this will be measuring) and the results are about the same.

So I don't know why the frequency response of this amp drops off while
the noise does not. Is there some parasitic capacitance elsewhere, or
is it because this amp is running high gain, and I need to use some kind
of composite amp config to improve the freq response?

Thanks

 

[NightsoilDalits@RyugyongH]

"alan" <no-longer-valid@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ddtsn2$vc$1@news.Stanford.EDU...

I'm building a high gain current amplifier with a LT1793 and a 10GOhm
resistor. It has the following problems:

I measured the frequency response by blasting in white noise thru
another large resistor. The frequency response is relatively flat up to
about 100 Hz, has a very slight rise, and then falls off at a corner
freq ~200Hz with a rolloff that looks a little bit faster than 1 pole.
I tried that "RCR trick", but all that did was make the freq response
fall off more slowly, more like 1 pole. (This "trick" is supposed to
cancel out the parallel capacitance of the feedback resistor) It also
makes the noise of the amp fairly flat (with freq) so that at higher
frequencies, the S/N gets worse. I have tested this amp with and
without an additional 80pF worth of input capacitance (to simulate the
system this will be measuring) and the results are about the same.

So I don't know why the frequency response of this amp drops off while
the noise does not. Is there some parasitic capacitance elsewhere, or
is it because this amp is running high gain, and I need to use some kind
of composite amp config to improve the freq response?

Thanks

Isn't that a voltage amplifier with a 10GOhm feedback resistor?
That is almost a wide open amp, no wonder noise is high.
What is your required bandwidth of your design?
Put a filter on it to cut the bandwidth down, noise is proportional to BW.
What is the noise spec of your amp?
Get a better amp.

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:26:25 -0700, alan <no-longer-valid@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I'm building a high gain current amplifier with a LT1793 and a 10GOhm
resistor. It has the following problems:

I measured the frequency response by blasting in white noise thru
another large resistor. The frequency response is relatively flat up to
about 100 Hz, has a very slight rise, and then falls off at a corner
freq ~200Hz with a rolloff that looks a little bit faster than 1 pole.
I tried that "RCR trick", but all that did was make the freq response
fall off more slowly, more like 1 pole. (This "trick" is supposed to
cancel out the parallel capacitance of the feedback resistor) It also
makes the noise of the amp fairly flat (with freq) so that at higher
frequencies, the S/N gets worse. I have tested this amp with and
without an additional 80pF worth of input capacitance (to simulate the
system this will be measuring) and the results are about the same.

So I don't know why the frequency response of this amp drops off while
the noise does not. Is there some parasitic capacitance elsewhere, or
is it because this amp is running high gain, and I need to use some kind
of composite amp config to improve the freq response?

Thanks

Well, two or more cascaded opamps have a lot more gain-bandwidth than
one.

John

 

[Winfield Hill]

alan wrote...

I'm building a high gain current amplifier with a LT1793 and a 10GOhm
resistor. It has the following problems:

I measured the frequency response by blasting in white noise thru
another large resistor. The frequency response is relatively flat up
to about 100 Hz, has a very slight rise, and then falls off at a corner
freq ~200Hz with a rolloff that looks a little bit faster than 1 pole.

Be careful doing that, Alan, what was the parasitic capacitance of
your "another large resistor"? For example, a 10G resistor with
0.1pF of self capacitance just looks like a capacitor above 160Hz.

I tried that "RCR trick", but all that did was make the freq response
fall off more slowly, more like 1 pole. (This "trick" is supposed to
cancel out the parallel capacitance of the feedback resistor) It also
makes the noise of the amp fairly flat (with freq) so that at higher
frequencies, the S/N gets worse. I have tested this amp with and
without an additional 80pF worth of input capacitance (to simulate the
system this will be measuring) and the results are about the same.

Have you remembered to include the effects of e_n-Cin noise? With
8nV and 80pF this noise swamps the Johnson noise of a 10G resistor
above f = sqrt(4kT/R) / 2pi en Cin = 315Hz. You can improve this
by changing to an opamp with lower e_n, such as an AD743, assuming
you don't mind 150pA rather than 3pA of bias current. Or you can
make a discrete JFET input stage. For example, I'm using Toshiba's
2sk170, which has under 1nV of noise, 8x better than your LT1793.
Its gate leakage is less than 1pA for drain voltages under 8V.

So I don't know why the frequency response of this amp drops off while
the noise does not. Is there some parasitic capacitance elsewhere,

Keep in mind that the e_n-Cin noise density increases as f, which
means it looks flat above a single-pole rolloff (this compares to
white noise, which only increases as sqrt f). With a 10G resistor
your e-n-Cin noise dominates above 300Hz, and 0.1pF of uncorrected
parasitic capacitance means your 10G would rolloff above 160Hz, so
your signal would go down but your noise would be flat above 300Hz
until the opamp's 4MHz bandwidth limit hits at 900Hz (see below).

or is it because this amp is running high gain, and I need to use
some kind of composite amp config to improve the freq response?

Your modest f_T = 4MHz opamp has enough gain-bandwidth to extend the
frequency response of an 80pF input node with 10G feedback resistor
to about f = sqrt(f_T / 2pi Cin Rf) = 892Hz, assuming you can keep
the 10G resistor's parasitic capacitance to under 0.018 pF, that is.
Hah! Or you can use the R-C-R trick.

Alan, did you tell us your bandwidth and current-noise specs?
What are you working on?


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[alan]

Winfield Hill wrote:

alan wrote...

I'm building a high gain current amplifier with a LT1793 and a 10GOhm
resistor. It has the following problems:

I measured the frequency response by blasting in white noise thru
another large resistor. The frequency response is relatively flat up
to about 100 Hz, has a very slight rise, and then falls off at a corner
freq ~200Hz with a rolloff that looks a little bit faster than 1 pole.


Be careful doing that, Alan, what was the parasitic capacitance of
your "another large resistor"? For example, a 10G resistor with
0.1pF of self capacitance just looks like a capacitor above 160Hz.

I used a 100Meg, and tested it against a Keithley 427 to make sure the
freq response was flat.

I tried that "RCR trick", but all that did was make the freq response
fall off more slowly, more like 1 pole. (This "trick" is supposed to
cancel out the parallel capacitance of the feedback resistor) It also
makes the noise of the amp fairly flat (with freq) so that at higher
frequencies, the S/N gets worse. I have tested this amp with and
without an additional 80pF worth of input capacitance (to simulate the
system this will be measuring) and the results are about the same.


Have you remembered to include the effects of e_n-Cin noise? With
8nV and 80pF this noise swamps the Johnson noise of a 10G resistor
above f = sqrt(4kT/R) / 2pi en Cin = 315Hz. You can improve this
by changing to an opamp with lower e_n, such as an AD743, assuming
you don't mind 150pA rather than 3pA of bias current.

Yes. And I also found out that for 10G, the LT1793 gave the lowest
overall noise in the hundreds of Hz range.


Or you can

make a discrete JFET input stage. For example, I'm using Toshiba's
2sk170, which has under 1nV of noise, 8x better than your LT1793.
Its gate leakage is less than 1pA for drain voltages under 8V.

How does one make such a stage?

So I don't know why the frequency response of this amp drops off while
the noise does not. Is there some parasitic capacitance elsewhere,


Keep in mind that the e_n-Cin noise density increases as f, which
means it looks flat above a single-pole rolloff (this compares to
white noise, which only increases as sqrt f). With a 10G resistor
your e-n-Cin noise dominates above 300Hz, and 0.1pF of uncorrected
parasitic capacitance means your 10G would rolloff above 160Hz, so
your signal would go down but your noise would be flat above 300Hz
until the opamp's 4MHz bandwidth limit hits at 900Hz (see below).

While testing the noise only, I didn't add any input capacitance, so the
e_nCin noise wouldn't rise above the Johnson noise until at much higher
frequencies. Therefore the noise was flat, but the freq response was
still dropping with 1 pole, even with the RCR trick.

or is it because this amp is running high gain, and I need to use
some kind of composite amp config to improve the freq response?


Your modest f_T = 4MHz opamp has enough gain-bandwidth to extend the
frequency response of an 80pF input node with 10G feedback resistor
to about f = sqrt(f_T / 2pi Cin Rf) = 892Hz, assuming you can keep
the 10G resistor's parasitic capacitance to under 0.018 pF, that is.
Hah! Or you can use the R-C-R trick.

I tried and failed. See above. The freq response still falls off with
1 pole at ~300ish Hz. Where did you come up with the f=sqrt formula? I
guess my system rolls off only half an order of magnitude below that, so
can I just build a composite amp by adding a 10x non-inverting amp
inside the feedback loop? OR do I limit the Lt1793's gain inside the
feedback loop and and another high gain amp? I guess I just have to
look at the product of the open loop gains and make sure it is stable?
I saw one of your composite amps in your response to "so what is the
RCR trick", but it has both amps with switched input terminals (to
un-invert each other?) and the second op-amp doesn't look like it has
any DC gain.

Alan, did you tell us your bandwidth and current-noise specs?
What are you working on?

892 Hz is fine for bandwidth. Current noise should be as low as
possible at a few hundred Hz.

STM amp.

 

[alan]

alan wrote:

I tried and failed. See above. The freq response still falls off with
1 pole at ~300ish Hz. Where did you come up with the f=sqrt formula? I
guess my system rolls off only half an order of magnitude below that, so
can I just build a composite amp by adding a 10x non-inverting amp
inside the feedback loop? OR do I limit the Lt1793's gain inside the
feedback loop and and another high gain amp? I guess I just have to
look at the product of the open loop gains and make sure it is stable?
I saw one of your composite amps in your response to "so what is the
RCR trick", but it has both amps with switched input terminals (to
un-invert each other?) and the second op-amp doesn't look like it has
any DC gain.

Never mind, I botched up my understanding of the composite amp. What
resistor and cap values are you supposed to use inside the composite amp
anyway?

 

[alan]

BTW, I built a simple composite amp by inserting a 10x stage inside the
feedback loop. It didn't prevent the roll-off, so I don't think the
problem was with f_T