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U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/playing-fire-ukraine
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 10:00:12 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/playing-fire-ukraine
Ukraine is Ground Zero for the new Cold War - regardless of how important or unimportant Ukraine is the U.S. this is a seminal moment in history.
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 10:00:12 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/playing-fire-ukraine
Ukraine is Ground Zero for the new Cold War - regardless of how important or unimportant Ukraine is the U.S. this is a seminal moment in history.
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 1:41:29 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 10:00:12 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/playing-fire-ukraine
Ukraine is Ground Zero for the new Cold War - regardless of how important or unimportant Ukraine is the U.S. this is a seminal moment in history.
It\'s most likely the point where Putin\'s incompetence has became obvious enough to get him thrown out.
It may be a while before this happens. If he did try to start a nuclear exchange he\'d most likely get slung out immediately.
Gnatguy exhibits incompetence, but doesn\'t comprehend it.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Exactly same story on the Russian side. The war is just going to drag on for a long time.On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:41:29 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 10:00:12 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/playing-fire-ukraine
Ukraine is Ground Zero for the new Cold War - regardless of how important or unimportant Ukraine is the U.S. this is a seminal moment in history.
It\'s not going to last that long. The Ukrainian army is getting slaughtered, supplies of everything, including people, are depleted, morale is low and the Ukrainian people are not behind them.
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone
if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west,
and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 11:05:56 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:41:29 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 10:00:12 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/playing-fire-ukraine
Ukraine is Ground Zero for the new Cold War - regardless of how important or unimportant Ukraine is the U.S. this is a seminal moment in history..
It\'s not going to last that long. The Ukrainian army is getting slaughtered, supplies of everything, including people, are depleted, morale is low and the Ukrainian people are not behind them.
Exactly same story on the Russian side. The war is just going to drag on for a long time.
On 8/17/2022 10:00 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone
if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west,
and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
Exactly *what* would be worth the cost of a nuclear war -- so I\'m
ready when that situation arises?
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 2:49:44 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 11:05:56 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:41:29 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 10:00:12 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/playing-fire-ukraine
Ukraine is Ground Zero for the new Cold War - regardless of how important or unimportant Ukraine is the U.S. this is a seminal moment in history.
It\'s not going to last that long. The Ukrainian army is getting slaughtered, supplies of everything, including people, are depleted, morale is low and the Ukrainian people are not behind them.
Exactly same story on the Russian side. The war is just going to drag on for a long time.
The population of Ukraine is 44M, and the Russian Federation is 144M. Russia has the capacity to crush Ukraine,
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/17/2022 10:00 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone
if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west,
and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
Exactly *what* would be worth the cost of a nuclear war -- so I\'m
ready when that situation arises?
Putin doesn\'t like the idea of the western powers setting up a border state with a lot of military armament and surveillance capability that could threaten their autonomy. He\'s very willing to nuke Europe and possibly the U.S. over it.
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 11:45:34 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/17/2022 10:00 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone
if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west,
and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
Exactly *what* would be worth the cost of a nuclear war -- so I\'m
ready when that situation arises?
Putin doesn\'t like the idea of the western powers setting up a border state with a lot of military armament and surveillance capability that could threaten their autonomy. He\'s very willing to nuke Europe and possibly the U.S. over it.
So he\'s a suicidal lunatic, prepared to see his country bombed back to the stone age rather than see his \"autonomy\" threatened?
It seems unlikely, and even if it were true his support staff would probably figure that it was less risky to have him put into a lunatic asylum rather than to let him start a nuclear war.
It\'s not what we think that\'s important, it\'s what they think.
But you are telling us what you think they think, which probably hasn\'t got much to do with what they actually think.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/17/2022 10:00 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise
anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value
to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
Exactly *what* would be worth the cost of a nuclear war -- so I\'m ready
when that situation arises?
Putin doesn\'t like the idea of the western powers setting up a border state
with a lot of military armament and surveillance capability that could
threaten their autonomy. He\'s very willing to nuke Europe and possibly the
U.S. over it. It\'s not what we think that\'s important, it\'s what they
think.
On 8/19/2022 6:45 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/17/2022 10:00 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise
anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value
to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
Exactly *what* would be worth the cost of a nuclear war -- so I\'m ready
when that situation arises?
Putin doesn\'t like the idea of the western powers setting up a border state
with a lot of military armament and surveillance capability that could
threaten their autonomy. He\'s very willing to nuke Europe and possibly the
U.S. over it. It\'s not what we think that\'s important, it\'s what they
think.
You didn\'t answer my question.
You\'ve just told me what you think he wants us to think.
Maybe we should beat our chest as well -- send military transports
into UKRAINIAN airspace and tell Putin, \"You\'d better not interfere
with them as we\'ve got the bomber fleet on full alert -- and have
notified our NATO allies of our readiness to counterattack
with overwhelming force...\"
Then, see who blinks.
I\'m sure he\'d realize that any archives of his country that survive
likely wouldn\'t remember him as a \"hero\" but, rather, the person who
was responsible for their apocalyptic living conditions.
[Unless, of course, he thinks he can defeat all of NATO with his
current record of \"progress\" against Ukraine?]
One thing we know for sure, now, is Putin is Xi\'s lap dog and
likely to remain so till his death -- going to China, hat-in-hand
for foodstuffs, military supplies, etc.
Gotta wonder when China decides his credit isn\'t any good and opts
for something more tangible -- like RUSSIAN REAL ESTATE - to pay his dues..
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 1:04:53 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/19/2022 6:45 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/17/2022 10:00 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t
surprise anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is
of no value to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a
nuclear war.
Exactly *what* would be worth the cost of a nuclear war -- so I\'m
ready when that situation arises?
Putin doesn\'t like the idea of the western powers setting up a border
state with a lot of military armament and surveillance capability that
could threaten their autonomy. He\'s very willing to nuke Europe and
possibly the U.S. over it. It\'s not what we think that\'s important, it\'s
what they think.
You didn\'t answer my question.
You\'ve just told me what you think he wants us to think.
Of course that\'s what he wants to think, that\'s why he said it.
Maybe we should beat our chest as well -- send military transports into
UKRAINIAN airspace and tell Putin, \"You\'d better not interfere with them
as we\'ve got the bomber fleet on full alert -- and have notified our NATO
allies of our readiness to counterattack with overwhelming force...\"
That\'s tantamount to waging war against Russia, and a surefire way to find
out who\'s bluffing.
Then, see who blinks.
I\'m sure he\'d realize that any archives of his country that survive likely
wouldn\'t remember him as a \"hero\" but, rather, the person who was
responsible for their apocalyptic living conditions.
I\'m pretty sure Putin is not a big fan of popular opinion...
[Unless, of course, he thinks he can defeat all of NATO with his current
record of \"progress\" against Ukraine?]
One thing we know for sure, now, is Putin is Xi\'s lap dog and likely to
remain so till his death -- going to China, hat-in-hand for foodstuffs,
military supplies, etc.
Gotta wonder when China decides his credit isn\'t any good and opts for
something more tangible -- like RUSSIAN REAL ESTATE - to pay his dues.
Okay- China right now is in the position of not being able to feed itself.
They\'re importing food, not exporting it. And all of that was caused by
extreme weather catastrophes.
Military supplies from China? You can\'t be serious. Iran and maybe the
Houthis buy from them but I doubt Russia does- dunno for sure. Russia sells
missile components to N. Korea, who knows what else and to whom.
Don\'t believe the western press and their bs about China being a military
powerhouse- they\'re not. There\'s a LOT more to military capability than
sheer numbers. A recent modern example is ww2 Germany, which in many cases
was greatly outmanned and even outgunned, but their tactics and their
execution of those tactics were so excellent, they sliced their opponents to
shreds.
On 8/19/2022 10:22 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 1:04:53 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/19/2022 6:45 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/17/2022 10:00 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t
surprise anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is
of no value to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a
nuclear war.
Exactly *what* would be worth the cost of a nuclear war -- so I\'m
ready when that situation arises?
Putin doesn\'t like the idea of the western powers setting up a border
state with a lot of military armament and surveillance capability that
could threaten their autonomy. He\'s very willing to nuke Europe and
possibly the U.S. over it. It\'s not what we think that\'s important, it\'s
what they think.
You didn\'t answer my question.
You\'ve just told me what you think he wants us to think.
Of course that\'s what he wants to think, that\'s why he said it.
And you STILL haven\'t answered my question.
I.e., under what circumstances do you \"call an implied nuclear bluff\"?
Maybe we should beat our chest as well -- send military transports into
UKRAINIAN airspace and tell Putin, \"You\'d better not interfere with them
as we\'ve got the bomber fleet on full alert -- and have notified our NATO
allies of our readiness to counterattack with overwhelming force...\"
That\'s tantamount to waging war against Russia, and a surefire way to find
out who\'s bluffing.
If we flew a military transport into Lithuanian airspace, or Poland,
would THAT be a declaration of war?
What if we flew one into BRAZILIAN airspace?
Or, a Cape Town overflight? What are th elimits we should be willing to
accept on his IMPLIED ultimatums? Why does ONLY HE get to issue them?
What value military force if not as a potential aggressive deterrent?
Then, see who blinks.
I\'m sure he\'d realize that any archives of his country that survive likely
wouldn\'t remember him as a \"hero\" but, rather, the person who was
responsible for their apocalyptic living conditions.
I\'m pretty sure Putin is not a big fan of popular opinion...
But he supposedly loves his country and is ashamed at its
loss of standing. Do you think he\'d engage (or RISK engaging)
in a behavior that DEFINITELY would lower its standing
(even if the entire world burns, one thing for sure is Russia would
be the first in flames)
[Unless, of course, he thinks he can defeat all of NATO with his current
record of \"progress\" against Ukraine?]
One thing we know for sure, now, is Putin is Xi\'s lap dog and likely to
remain so till his death -- going to China, hat-in-hand for foodstuffs,
military supplies, etc.
Gotta wonder when China decides his credit isn\'t any good and opts for
something more tangible -- like RUSSIAN REAL ESTATE - to pay his dues.
Okay- China right now is in the position of not being able to feed itself.
They\'re importing food, not exporting it. And all of that was caused by
extreme weather catastrophes.
Military supplies from China? You can\'t be serious. Iran and maybe the
Houthis buy from them but I doubt Russia does- dunno for sure. Russia sells
missile components to N. Korea, who knows what else and to whom.
Don\'t believe the western press and their bs about China being a military
powerhouse- they\'re not. There\'s a LOT more to military capability than
sheer numbers. A recent modern example is ww2 Germany, which in many cases
was greatly outmanned and even outgunned, but their tactics and their
execution of those tactics were so excellent, they sliced their opponents to
shreds.
Russia is burning through men and material. How do you think he\'s
going to replenish those? Where is he going to spend his coin?
He\'s presently emulating North Korea in terms of access to world
markets. Kim is just as vulnerable -- there will be a time when
his bluff will be called and he\'ll have to suffer the consequences
(or lose face on the world stage and lose the power of that bluff)
As for \"tactics\", maybe Russia is hiding its strength? Willingly
losing men and material in the hope of lulling the rest of the
world into thinking it\'s NOT a superpower?? How does that jibe with
his obsessing over Russia\'s loss of stature?
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 1:44:11 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/19/2022 10:22 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 1:04:53 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/19/2022 6:45 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/17/2022 10:00 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t
surprise anyone if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is
of no value to the west, and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a
nuclear war.
Exactly *what* would be worth the cost of a nuclear war -- so I\'m
ready when that situation arises?
Putin doesn\'t like the idea of the western powers setting up a border
state with a lot of military armament and surveillance capability that
could threaten their autonomy. He\'s very willing to nuke Europe and
possibly the U.S. over it. It\'s not what we think that\'s important, it\'s
what they think.
You didn\'t answer my question.
You\'ve just told me what you think he wants us to think.
Of course that\'s what he wants to think, that\'s why he said it.
And you STILL haven\'t answered my question.
I.e., under what circumstances do you \"call an implied nuclear bluff\"?
I have no idea since that circumstance is as remote as being able to sprout wings and fly...
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 10:58:18 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
...
That\'s how Russia fights wars. They don\'t care about losses. They lost about as many people just taking Grozny as they have in Ukraine so far.
Unlikely, perhaps 1/10 of what they suffer in Ukraine.
\"Military casualties are unknown, but are estimated to run into the thousands of killed and wounded on both sides. The officially released figures on the Russian losses were 1,376 killed in action and 408 missing in action, yet the actual figure could be higher.\"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1994%E2%80%931995)
n Friday, August 19, 2022 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 11:45:34 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/17/2022 10:00 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
U.S. already has a solid track record of defeat, so it won\'t surprise anyone
if they bow out. The cold facts are that Ukraine is of no value to the west,
and it\'s certainly not worth the cost of a nuclear war.
Exactly *what* would be worth the cost of a nuclear war -- so I\'m
ready when that situation arises?
Putin doesn\'t like the idea of the western powers setting up a border state with a lot of military armament and surveillance capability that could threaten their autonomy. He\'s very willing to nuke Europe and possibly the U.S. over it.
So he\'s a suicidal lunatic, prepared to see his country bombed back to the stone age rather than see his \"autonomy\" threatened?
Russia is already in the stone age...