tv receivers have puny sound

[Charles]

This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
thought that I'd try here. I was labeled a kook and a troll and ... Boy,
does that group have bunched up underwear!

I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin. I know about
amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that. Please don't
recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post is about.

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting, and
other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
sound. Any ideas?

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into
these skinny TV receivers?

Probably. But...

1. It will add to the size and cost of the set...
2. ...which is a turnoff for people who want compactness, and are going to
connect the set to their audio system, anyway.

Ergo, and QED, I don't think there /is/ much of a market for sets with
really good sound.

My 60" KURO came with two large speakers intended to hang on the sides, but
I didn't even listen to them. Instead, I attached two shoebox-sized KLH
Audio 900B speakers from Best Buy, which I got for $15 the pair (due to a
pricing screwup). They sound fine even on music. Unfortunately, KLH Audio is
out of business.

 

[Charles]

"Meat Plow" wrote in message newsan.2010.12.11.22.43.48@lmao.lol.lol...

On Sat, 11 Dec 2010 17:24:38 -0500, Charles wrote:

This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
thought that I'd try here. I was labeled a kook and a troll and ...
Boy, does that group have bunched up underwear!

I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin. I know
about amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that.
Please don't recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post
is about.

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting,
and other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
sound. Any ideas?

Well certainly the technology exists. My TV has decent sound especially
the spatial. But I get some sympathetic vibration from the plastic chassis
when I turn up the volume. Makes one wonder if more importance is given
to the picture quality because of competition and because the trend is to
mate these TVs up with external surround sound systems.

Perhaps the technology exists, but doubt that it is applied in most tvs. It
is now all about the picture these days, and the home theater mentality
dictates that serious sound can be achieved via add on devices. Not what I
want to do (add surround sound speakers, amps, sub-woofers, etc.). I want
to buy a tv with decent BUILT-IN sound.

 

[Charles]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
news:ie0vum$5bi$1@news.eternal-september.org...

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into
these skinny TV receivers?

Probably. But...

1. It will add to the size and cost of the set...
2. ...which is a turnoff for people who want compactness, and are going to
connect the set to their audio system, anyway.


1/ A marginal amount, is my guess.
2/ No turnoff if it is a marginal increase. In fact, it could be a selling
point for many consumers.
3/ Many of us into later technology misjudge the basic market ... there are
many out there who want a basic tv with decent sound, out of the box.

 

[Meat Plow]

On Sat, 11 Dec 2010 17:24:38 -0500, Charles wrote:

This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
thought that I'd try here. I was labeled a kook and a troll and ...
Boy, does that group have bunched up underwear!

I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin. I know
about amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that.
Please don't recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post
is about.

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting,
and other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
sound. Any ideas?

Well certainly the technology exists. My TV has decent sound especially
the spatial. But I get some sympathetic vibration from the plastic chassis
when I turn up the volume. Makes one wonder if more importance is given
to the picture quality because of competition and because the trend is to
mate these TVs up with external surround sound systems.



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

 

[William Sommerwerck]

When you say "puny sound", what you really mean is a lack of loud,
exaggerated bass. You can't get lots of bass at a high volume level cheaply.

Don't take this personally, but I really don't care. I have a decent pair of
inexpensive speakers connected to the set, which provide much better sound
than they have any right to. (I'm sometimes surprised at just how good it
is.) And when I want to listen seriously, I have a sophisticated six-channel
(plus cheap subwoofer) audiophile system. Really good sound /from the TV
itself/, out of the box, is exactly what I /don't/ want, and don't want to
pay for.

 

[Meat Plow]

On Sat, 11 Dec 2010 18:08:46 -0500, Charles wrote:

Perhaps the technology exists, but doubt that it is applied in most tvs.
It is now all about the picture these days, and the home theater
mentality dictates that serious sound can be achieved via add on
devices. Not what I want to do (add surround sound speakers, amps,
sub-woofers, etc.). I want to buy a tv with decent BUILT-IN sound.

Well good luck. If you have the resources you may wish to do a little
footworks and visit some retailers and listen to the sound quality of
the sets on display. I run everything via optical digital from my DVR and
RF digital from my DVD to a 3.2.1 surround system. I've done this for 11
years even though my first large screen was a 51" rear projector with
very good built in sound.



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

 

[D Yuniskis]

Hi Charles,

Charles wrote:

This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
thought that I'd try here. I was labeled a kook and a troll and ...
Boy, does that group have bunched up underwear!

<grin> They'd much rather rant about politics...

I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin. I know
about amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that.
Please don't recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post
is about.

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting,
and other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
sound. Any ideas?

Flat panel TVs hype their smallness/thinness. Sound typically
requires "volume" (as in length x width x height -- not "loudness").
Note that the sound from LCD *monitors* is almost adequate.

BUT, you sit 18 inches away from a monitor; across the room
from a TV!

You will note that most higher end flat screen TVs *do* have
external speakers -- simply because good sound "requires" it.

"Yes, we have no bananas."

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ie0tn5$9sp$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
Charles <charlesschuler@comcast.net> wrote:

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting,
and other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

No. Decent speakers need space. And need to point at the listener. The
market seems to want the set to be all screen.

--
*Money isn‘t everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ie1362$i5q$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

Don't take this personally, but I really don't care. I have a decent
pair of inexpensive speakers connected to the set, which provide much
better sound than they have any right to. (I'm sometimes surprised at
just how good it is.) And when I want to listen seriously, I have a
sophisticated six-channel (plus cheap subwoofer) audiophile system.
Really good sound /from the TV itself/, out of the box, is exactly what
I /don't/ want, and don't want to pay for.

Indeed. Also set mounted speakers are too close together for a decent
sound stage. They are also one of these things developments in electronics
haven't made cheaper. Unlike TV sets in general.

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <ie0tn5$9sp$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
Charles <charlesschuler@comcast.net> wrote:

This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
thought that I'd try here. I was labeled a kook and a troll and ... Boy,
does that group have bunched up underwear!

I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin.

The audio drivers in those TVs probably cost all of $1 each in
quantity, and they were probably selected for "it fits" much more than
for their sound quality.

I know about
amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that. Please don't
recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post is about.

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting, and
other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

There are some fairly fundamental problems. As a rule of thumb, if
you want to have loudspeakers with small total volume, decent
low-frequency response, and decent efficiency... well, too bad... you
can pick any two of these, but you won't get all three in a single
device.

Most commercial TV-speaker designs choose small volume and good
efficiency... and lose out on the low frequency response.

If you want to keep the small volume, and get better low frequency
response... well, you lose out on efficiency (need a much bigger
amplifier for a given SPL). You also have problems due to the small
physical size of the driver... it simply can't displace enough air,
when moving back and forth, to create an acceptable SPL at low
frequencies, before it hits its mechanical excursion limits and begins
to distort badly. Also, its voice coil is too small to dissipate much
heat... push more than a very few watts into the driver to overcome
the low efficiency and you'll burn up the voice coil.

There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
sound. Any ideas?

One possibility might be to widen the panel by a few inches, and
install multiple small drivers in a vertical line arrangement on each
side... you might get enough driver area to allow for halfway-decent
low frequency response. A similar widened-panel arrangement might be
used with a single flat-panel driver on either side... something
perhaps akin to one of Magnepan's "magneplanar" drivers.

A third possibility might be to conceal some sort of larger driver
behind the panel, with a ported feed out to the side... perhaps
something like a transmission-line loading or porting arrangement.
This might not work for flat-on-the-wall mounting arrangements, but
for articulated mounts there's probably enough space.

Quite simply, to get good low-frequency response at halfway decent
efficiency and distortion levels, you need drivers with a good deal of
frontal area... and you need some back space for them to work in (as a
sealed enclosure, some sort of ported/vented enclosure, or enough
back-wave space for a dipole-radiation arrangement that the low
frequencies don't cancel out).

There are plenty of acoustic tricks one can play, to make a speaker
system sound (subjectively) as if it has more low-bass response than
it does (objectively), and many speaker systems do use these. A
modest boost in the upper-bass "warmth" range can present an illusion
of deep bass, for example.

You might find that your existing flat-panel TV systems can be made to
sound halfway decent, within their physical limitations, by some careful
re-equalization of the audio. You probably can't boost the low bass
very far before the speakers begin to distort, but you could probably
level out the frequency response and "warm it up" a bit, as long as
you're willing to listen at modest volume levels.

It's even possible that some simple physical "tweaking" to the existing
speaker drivers and their (miserable excuse for a real) enclosure,
would clean up the sound somewhat. Sticking some damping materials on
the inside of the plastic case of the TV to damp out resonances in the
case, and maybe adding some wool or polyester batting to tame
resonances within the enclosures, might tame the "peaky" sound a bit.

It might even be worth replacing the drivers with less-awful ones, if
you can find some which fit the enclosure and mounting... probably
won't help the bass much if any but they might be more pleasant to
listen to.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 11 Dec 2010 17:24:38 -0500, "Charles"
<charlesschuler@comcast.net> wrote:

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers?

No. I used to design marine radios. The problems are similar.
The challenges (or more properly, the problems or nightmares):

1. Thin sound means no bass. To get decent bass, you need a big air
space behind the speaker (bass reflex). Without the air space, you
get a nasty resonance at some point in the speaker. If you like lots
of boom, rattle, and buzz at some low frequency, that's fine. However,
it does get irritating rather quickly. Look at the Bose folded
labyrinth pretzel horn design as an example of how it can be done:
<http://books.google.com/books?id=pAAAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86>

2. Good bass can be had with a single speaker. No need for two as
the lower frequencies are not very directional. High frequency
tweeters are very different. If you just aim two tweeters straight
ahead, perpendicular to the LCD screen, you get great sound in front
of the TV, and nothing to the sides. With perhaps a 120 degree
viewing angle for the TV, it's difficult to get the same audio
dispersion without using a big ugly horn or acoustic lens for the
highs. Without one, you'll have wide variations in sound quality at
different sitting positions. If you look inside the speakers in a
typical LCD TV, you'll find that they're angled away from the
perpendicular in order to cover the viewers to the sides.

3. Good speakers require a rather solidly built enclosure. If you're
going to pump perhaps 15 watts RMS per speaker into the enclosure, it
has to handle the power without falling apart, breaking solvent welds,
rattling screws loose, breaking component wire bonds, or otherwise
shaking the TV into premature failure. One radio I designed many
years ago had only a 3 watt RMS audio amp and a single 4x6" oval
speaker. In locations where the radio volume was run at full blast to
overcome a high ambient noise level, there were plenty of strange
mechanically induced failures. It was fascinating watching the PCB's
flex at various acoustic resonances under a strobe light.

4. For LCD TV's, vendors are discovering that bigger isn't always
better. You can sell the TV on the basis of a larger screen, but when
the customer takes it home and finds that it doesn't fit in his
entertainment center or whatever, there are problems. The smaller
TV's may have speakers in the "ears" of the screen (on each side), but
the larger TV's often opt for a less space greedy minimalist approach.

5. Plenty more, but I'm tired and want to give up for the evening.

One idea I had was to place the folder speaker horn behind the TV in a
separate enclosure that is the same height and width as the TV. That
leaves plenty of room for the labyrinth. By building the speaker into
a separate enclosure, it can be mechanically isolated from the TV. At
the top or sides of the enclosure are the exit points, which are
directed at the listener with various bizarre shaped reflectors. I
don't know if this will actually work, but it might be a tolerable way
to solve the audio quality problem without resorting to a component
system.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

 

[N_Cook]

Charles <charlesschuler@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ie0tn5$9sp$1@news.eternal-september.org...

This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
thought that I'd try here. I was labeled a kook and a troll and ... Boy,
does that group have bunched up underwear!

I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin. I know about
amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that. Please
don't
recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post is about.

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting,
and
other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
sound. Any ideas?

Anything to do with not using excessively elliptical speakers these days. ?
Used to be something like 10 or 12 inches major axis and 1.5 inches or so
minor axis

 

On Dec 11, 2:24 pm, "Charles" <charlesschu...@comcast.net> wrote:

This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
thought that I'd try here.  I was labeled a kook and a troll and ...  Boy,
does that group have bunched up underwear!

I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin.  I know about
amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that.  Please don't
recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post is about.

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers?  The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting, and
other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
sound.  Any ideas?

I read your other thread. Apparently you just want to whine about it.
I agree the sound on most TVs sucks though what comes into them can be
very good. I told you how I added a very simple stereo system onto the
TV to make it decent and totally transparent to operate. That's the
best I can do as I don't design TV sets.

Happy Holidays
G˛

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Don't take this personally, but I really don't care. I have a decent
pair of inexpensive speakers connected to the set, which provide
much better sound than they have any right to. (I'm sometimes
surprised at just how good it is.) And when I want to listen seriously,
I have a sophisticated six-channel (plus cheap subwoofer) audiophile
system. Really good sound /from the TV itself/, out of the box, is
exactly what I /don't/ want, and don't want to pay for.

Indeed. Also set mounted speakers are too close together for a
decent sound stage. They are also one of these things developments
in electronics haven't made cheaper. Unlike TV sets in general.

There are laws of physics any speaker designer has to confront. The
relationship among sensitivity, maximum output, and bass extension seems
essentially unbreakable. * The smaller the cabinet, the greater the
compromise required in any one of these to improve the other two. **

It is true that /drivers/ have drastically improved over the last 20 years.
The muffled, boxy sound that used to come out of TVs is gone.


* There's a recent design that claims to have fudged these factors, but
based on what's been published, it seems to be unduly complex for the
limited improvement it provides.

** One way to get around the cabinet-size problem is to stuff bags of sulfur
hexafluoride in the cabinet. Only Dayton-Wright ever did this, but it really
worked.

 

[Wild_Bill]

You could have just done a Goog search, but apparently you wouldn't, so many
folks would generally assume that it's a troll post.

No high quality sound will be coming from cheap, tiny "speakers" in a
flimsy, light weight, vented plastic enclosure. Silicon doesn't make quality
sound, so magic ICs (technology) won't do it.

Headphones.

Bose TV.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/206518/a_bose_tv_sounds_good_literally.html

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2010/09/28/pricey-bose-tv-promises-theater-sound-no-external-speakers/

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Charles" <charlesschuler@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ie0tn5$9sp$1@news.eternal-september.org...

This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
thought that I'd try here. I was labeled a kook and a troll and ... Boy,
does that group have bunched up underwear!

I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin. I know about
amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that. Please
don't recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post is about.

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting,
and other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
sound. Any ideas?

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Charles wrote:

This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
thought that I'd try here. I was labeled a kook and a troll and ... Boy,
does that group have bunched up underwear!

I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin. I know about
amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that. Please don't
recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post is about.

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting, and
other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
sound. Any ideas?

Yes. You don't have a clue about designing electronics. The last
thing you want in a TV is a lot of bass to vibrate the electronics.
There are already enough problems with cracked solder joints, and the
sound you want would make things worse. The cases would vibrate and
rattle at high volume, as well since the cases are large and thin. From
an engineering standpoint it is a good way to put yourself out of
business. You would need a very thick and heavy case design with
damping to prevent problems. the case would be a lot larger and
heavier, and could add several hundred dollars to the retail price just
to please a very small percentage of customers. Go find a working '70s
color console made when the cabinets were measured in cubic feet instead
of today's that are measured in cubic inches. One of those eight foot
wide Zenith monsters with a one inch thick slate top would do. Of
course, Zenith warned you that you needed six people to move one of
them.


--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

 

On Sat, 11 Dec 2010 17:24:38 -0500, "Charles"
<charlesschuler@comcast.net> wrote:

This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
thought that I'd try here. I was labeled a kook and a troll and ... Boy,
does that group have bunched up underwear!

I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin. I know about
amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that. Please don't
recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post is about.

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting, and
other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
sound. Any ideas?
This is true of the cheap LCD TVs you buy, but it doesn't have to be

the case. There is no way to get good sound at appreciable volume out
of an ultra-thin set. The solution is simple - larger speakers.
Several Philips plasma sets took advantage of the relatively deeper
chassis to incorporate sizeable speakers appropriately space to give
decent sound. Sharp and other manufacturers incorporated a sound bar
under the set. Obviously this adds to the cost, so it's not a
solution found in the bottom of the line sets favored by some.

PlainBill

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 11 Dec 2010 15:03:02 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

Unfortunately, KLH Audio is
out of business.

The original KLH was sold to Kyocera, which bailed out of the audio
biz about 10 years ago. What's left was sold several times and is now
in California at:
<http://www.klhaudio.com>
Doesn't look like any of the simple Henry Kloss designs, which have
been cloned by others:
<http://www.tivoliaudio.com>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Klaatu]

"Charles" <charlesschuler@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ie0tn5$9sp$1@news.eternal-september.org...

This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
thought that I'd try here. I was labeled a kook and a troll and ... Boy,
does that group have bunched up underwear!

I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin. I know about
amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that. Please
don't recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post is about.

Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting,
and other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.

There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
sound. Any ideas?

Most brands who market lcd TVs also sell external audio systems, for an
additional cost of course. Already have a good stereo? To bad, no analog
out on most lcd panels, optical out only. If you're REAL lucky, it might
have a mini headphone jack.
Don't hold your breath for better sound on lcd TVs, although LG does offer
some audio enhancements called clear voice. All it does is boost the mid
frequencies.