Tube vs. Transistor Sound Equipment

[WbSearch]

Is there any credability to the belief that tube sound equipment produces much
better quality sound/music than transistor type? I have heard many arguements
to support either belief and wondered if anyone has knowledge of any measured
data vs. opinion?

 

[Sofie]

WbSearch:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Many purists prefer the "softer" sound of tubes versus the "harder" sound of
solid state. The argument also extends to analog (tapes & vinyl) versus
digital (CD).
Further out on a limb are those that argue that the big, stiff, pure, double
insulated, oxygen free, helical wound, copper speaker wire and audio
connection wire with gold connectors greatly IMPROVES the definition,
clarity, and quality of the sound over the cheap zip cord and tin connector
cords that most of us use.
Many times in the past there were technical tests done relating to all of
the above..... detailed in magazines like Stereo Review and others.....
and the laboratory instruments could not conclusively prove anything......
neither could the ears of most of the test engineers.
Usually the only ones who are most eager to state the benefits of all of
this are the ones who shelled out the big bucks to buy the esoteric stuff
like speaker wire @ $10 per foot, tube preamps @ $1200, phono cartridges and
stylus @ $400, etc, etc..
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"WbSearch" <wbsearch@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030801114050.14602.00000836@mb-m02.aol.com...

Is there any credability to the belief that tube sound equipment produces
much
better quality sound/music than transistor type? I have heard many
arguements
to support either belief and wondered if anyone has knowledge of any
measured
data vs. opinion?

 

[Gary Woods]

wbsearch@aol.com (WbSearch) wrote:

Is there any credability to the belief that tube sound equipment produces much
better quality sound/music than transistor type?

There _was_ a shred of truth to this years ago: Early solid-state amps had
poor headroom and generated a lot of TIM, Transient Intermodulation
Distortion, that nobody knew how to test for. And people do love the hum
and noise that transistors make nearly none of. At this point, most of it
is, as Daniel Sofie said, male bovine fecal matter.
But hey, ole P.T. is still with us, and if you wanna pay for lurid prose,
I've got a couple of nice chrome-plated McIntosh 60-watt amps just waiting
for those KT-66s to light up!

--
Gary Woods O- K2AHC Public keys at www.albany.net/~gwoods, or get 0x1D64A93D via keyserver
gwoods@albany.net gwoods@wrgb.com
fingerprint = E2 6F 50 93 7B C7 F3 CA 1F 8B 3C C0 B0 28 68 0B

 

[Eric]

I would agree the tube amp does sound better,

AND THE DIODE DETECTOR IN A "AM" RADIO DISTORTS THE AUDIO.


"WbSearch" <wbsearch@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030801114050.14602.00000836@mb-m02.aol.com...
: Is there any credability to the belief that tube sound equipment produces
much
: better quality sound/music than transistor type? I have heard many
arguements
: to support either belief and wondered if anyone has knowledge of any
measured
: data vs. opinion?

 

On 01 Aug 2003 15:40:50 GMT, wbsearch@aol.com (WbSearch) wrote:

Is there any credability to the belief that tube sound equipment produces much
better quality sound/music than transistor type? I have heard many arguements
to support either belief and wondered if anyone has knowledge of any measured
data vs. opinion?

Sometimes amps get over driven and this is where the difference can be
found.

I believe that tube amps when over driven create even order harmonic
distortion. Solid state amps creates odd order harmonic distortion.
Even order distortion is much more pleasant to the ear than the odd
order.

 

[Tom MacIntyre]

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:32:45 -0700, Engineer <LandRJones@sprint.ca>
wrote:

WbSearch wrote:

Is there any credability to the belief that tube sound equipment produces much
better quality sound/music than transistor type?

No, none at all.

It was in the past for the electric guitar, due to better sounding
distortion and output transformer saturation at high levels.
Transistor gear had improved dramaticlly in the last years I played,
and are probably very close now, though. Tom Scholz, lead guitar
player for the 70's rock group Boston, and an MIT grad, had designed
some pretty good stuff back then, and with DSP it'd have to be real
close. The ear of the beholder is always the final judge when it comes
to sound/music.

I have heard many arguments
to support either belief and wondered if anyone has knowledge of any measured
data vs. opinion?

Look at the validated performance specs of solid state high
power audio output packages - many tens of genuine
continuous watts, even well over 100 watts, at distortions
well below 0.01%. In a good power amplifier design they
provide the closest thing to a "straight thick wire with
gain" you will find - and at low cost, too.

As far as clean sound reinforcement, I'd have to agree.

Tubes, from single ended 6V6's and 6L6's to push-pull
EL34's, KT66's and KT88's, are lovely, romantic, nostalgic
and fun to play with (I grew up with some of them) but solid
state can delivery better sound.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[EsMot]

You know what: I was told the same. I got a friend who's really into audio,
lots of tools, music, thousands of dollars on amplifiers, speakers, etc, the
dream of his life is a Luxmann don't-know-the-model-but-very-expensive, if I
would have that money I'd probably buy a car...He doesn't have a tube
amplifier but one day I found a Pilot Radio Corporation 1950 something in a
pile of garbage. I'm not one of those guys who would spend a fortune for an
audio system so I said: why not. With a bit more than $100US worth of parts
I restored it and now here it is, on my workbench, giving it's best.
I canot compare it with my two channel Technics which is almost 6 years old
and I can tell you for sure that my Harman-Kardon 6.1 sounds much better
than the guys from Pilot Radio ever dreamed!. With one exception: classic
music. Guitars, drums, synthesizers, etc are not for my old tube amplifier
(which is quite new, by the way, I replaced lots of parts inside). When you
go to violins things are different. I cannot explain, my friend cannot too,
but we both agreed that the best Bach we heard by now played on this old
tube amplifier. It may be just the ear, it may be something more...
For me it was an interesting experiment (read about tubes, find the
schematic, research the Pilot Radio Corporation, discovered that there's a
whole comunity on the web restoring or building their own tube
amplifiers),.but I believe there's many better things you can do with your
money other than buying a tube amplifier... Maybe you can build your own if
curious. You can actually find schematics, documentation and all the parts
you need!


"WbSearch" <wbsearch@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030801114050.14602.00000836@mb-m02.aol.com...

Is there any credability to the belief that tube sound equipment produces
much
better quality sound/music than transistor type? I have heard many
arguements
to support either belief and wondered if anyone has knowledge of any
measured
data vs. opinion?

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

Since answers to this question will vary based on the biases in perspective
and experience of the person replying I will first describe my perspective
to give some context to my comments. You have to consider this context when
evaluating responses on this kind of question.

First, I am a skeptic of the highest order. I have been involved in the
audio and video business for over twenty years with some sales experience
and mostly as a repair tech. I have a MS degree and extensive experience in
signal processing, scientific research, and statistics as well.

My experience is that amps can sound very different. The can also not sound
different at all. There are some general characteristics of tube amps that
may make them sound softer or less harsh than transistor amps, and some that
may be less desirable. The differences among amps of each type can be as
great, so these generalizations are much harder to make than they were many
years ago. You should listen carefully to the amps you are considering in
your application and determine for yourself if the differences are audible,
important,or desirable. Anyone who makes a generalization that either type
is better sounding is incorrect. Likewise, those who claim that the
differences are inaudible are often incorrect. The latter is based on
assumptions about the audibility of distortion and the assumption that the
measurements that are usually done in amp evaluations account for all of the
potential audible differences. This is as wrong to assume in evaluating
audio equipment as it is in deciding if a drug is safe or a diet is
effective. The same holds for tests of cables. The research that has shown
no differences is pretty poorly done in most cases and in any regard, a lack
of statistical difference does not prove anything other than the research
was unable to show a difference, not that there are no differences.

I have heard many times the differences between amps and speaker cables.
Low level audio and video interconnects are another matter. The differences
are much harder to discern. Don't assume that what anyone else tells you is
correct, however. Your ability or willingness to perceive differences will
likely vary from that of others greatly. The best thing to do is to do your
homework and decide for yourself. Listen and see what you find.

Human perception is as varied as it is potentially flawed and precise.
Anyone who thinks that the audibility of differences can be quantified by
one or two measurements of a piece of equipment has no idea of the
complexity of the processes that may account for audible differences in
sound reproduction, on either the reproduction end or the perception end of
the system.

Regardless, remember, if you are having fun listening nothing anyone else
says matters.

Leonard Caillouet

"WbSearch" <wbsearch@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030801114050.14602.00000836@mb-m02.aol.com...

Is there any credability to the belief that tube sound equipment produces
much
better quality sound/music than transistor type? I have heard many
arguements
to support either belief and wondered if anyone has knowledge of any
measured
data vs. opinion?

 

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:55:44 -0700, "Sofie" <sofie@olypen.com> wrote:

WbSearch:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Many purists prefer the "softer" sound of tubes versus the "harder" sound of
solid state. The argument also extends to analog (tapes & vinyl) versus
digital (CD).
Further out on a limb are those that argue that the big, stiff, pure, double
insulated, oxygen free, helical wound, copper speaker wire and audio
connection wire with gold connectors greatly IMPROVES the definition,
clarity, and quality of the sound over the cheap zip cord and tin connector
cords that most of us use.
Many times in the past there were technical tests done relating to all of
the above..... detailed in magazines like Stereo Review and others.....
and the laboratory instruments could not conclusively prove anything......
neither could the ears of most of the test engineers.
Usually the only ones who are most eager to state the benefits of all of
this are the ones who shelled out the big bucks to buy the esoteric stuff
like speaker wire @ $10 per foot, tube preamps @ $1200, phono cartridges and
stylus @ $400, etc, etc..

I am not sure which sounds better, but there is one thing that I never
understood. When I was young, I had 2 amplifiers (one for each
channel). Each amp had 4 - 6L6 tubes. If I remember correctly, those
4 output tubes would put out about 60 to 90 watts.
Well, those two amps when opened wide, would blast the windows out,
and I am not just saying that, because once I actually did cause a
window to shatter.
Anyhow, the semiconductor amps now a days are all rated very high in
wattage. Heck, some of those car amps are 500 watts or more. Well,
those two tube amps that I used to have were more powerful than any
modern amp, except for those used on stages. All I can figure is that
the semiconductor amps are rated in a different manner.

And since you mentioned vinyl records VS CD's, I will have to say that
I do prefer vinyl. However, this has been documented. There is a web
site that explains how CD's are sampling, and at high frequencies they
"clip" (distort) the sound because there are not enough samples per
second. The DVD is supposed to sample more times per second so is
supposed to sound better. I think the web site was called "how stuff
works" or something like that.

Mark

 

[Engineer]

maradcliff@UNLISTED.com wrote:

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:55:44 -0700, "Sofie" <sofie@olypen.com> wrote:

WbSearch:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Many purists prefer the "softer" sound of tubes versus the "harder" sound of
solid state. The argument also extends to analog (tapes & vinyl) versus
digital (CD).

(snip)

I am not sure which sounds better, but there is one thing that I never
understood. When I was young, I had 2 amplifiers (one for each
channel). Each amp had 4 - 6L6 tubes. If I remember correctly, those
4 output tubes would put out about 60 to 90 watts.

Sounds about right, perhaps closer to 60 watts, IMHO. Two
6L6's in push-pull should give about 30 continuous watts
with high enough HT+ and a decent O/P transformer (the
quality of the latter varied in those days - you had to pay
for good ones.)

Well, those two amps when opened wide, would blast the windows out,
and I am not just saying that, because once I actually did cause a
window to shatter.

I'm sure you are right but that's a matter of speakers,
frequency, resonance, room size, etc. - hardly a "sound"
measurement.

Anyhow, the semiconductor amps now a days are all rated very high in
wattage. Heck, some of those car amps are 500 watts or more.

Ah, well... so they claim, but do they deliver this? Over
the years there have been some weird claims for "watts",
e.g. "peak power" (twice the continuous rating. IIRC),
"IMPO" (or something - not even sure what it means except
total fiction.) What matters is continuous real power into
a resistive load, i.e. rms volts times rms amps - in phase
(I won't go into reactive volt.amps.) This is also rms volts
squared divided by load resistance in ohms (NOT the complex
impedance of the speaker and cross-over.) Amplifiers can
gain a bit of extra kudos by having very large reservoir
capacitors to deliver a bit more current than the P/S can
over a transient - this can help the apparent dynamic range
but it's only temporary power. There are some other
criteria such as stability into "difficult" loads.

Well,
those two tube amps that I used to have were more powerful than any
modern amp, except for those used on stages. All I can figure is that
the semiconductor amps are rated in a different manner.

An amplifier's continuous power rating is defined
mathematically - forget the marketing hype, measure it.

Another thing, the SPL goes up by only 3 dB for every
doubling of power. 3 dB is close to the smallest level that
can be discriminated. 12 dB is quite significant - you
would get this by going from 5 watts to 80 watts.

Basically, you want a "straight thick wire with power
gain". Solid state does that at the lowest cost.

(snip)

Mark

Cheers,

Roger
--
Roger Jones, P.Eng.
Thornhill, Ontario,
Canada.

"Friends don't let friends vote Liberal"

 

[jakdedert]

"Tom MacIntyre" <tom__macintyre@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c7gniv4j6a9vqn5pt6vian4u36r8aa6eol@4ax.com...

On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 07:00:02 -0500, maradcliff@UNLISTED.com wrote:


I am not sure which sounds better, but there is one thing that I never
understood. When I was young, I had 2 amplifiers (one for each
channel). Each amp had 4 - 6L6 tubes. If I remember correctly, those
4 output tubes would put out about 60 to 90 watts.
Well, those two amps when opened wide, would blast the windows out,
and I am not just saying that, because once I actually did cause a
window to shatter.
Anyhow, the semiconductor amps now a days are all rated very high in
wattage. Heck, some of those car amps are 500 watts or more. Well,
those two tube amps that I used to have were more powerful than any
modern amp, except for those used on stages. All I can figure is that
the semiconductor amps are rated in a different manner.

It could be that typical stereo speakers don't have the SPL per watt
that instrument and PA speakers do...that used to be the way it was
anyway. Also, 200 watts is not significantly louder than 100, or even
50.

Tom

I think it's more likely that the answer lies in the distortion component of
SS vs. tube amps. When the former distorts, it sounds much more harsh and
less 'musical' than the latter. It could very well be, that the poster was
pushing the tubes well into their distortion range--loud, but not clean--but
still much more 'listenable' than a similarly rated SS amp driven to the
same % of distortion.

jak

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On 01 Aug 2003 15:40:50 GMT, wbsearch@aol.com (WbSearch) put finger to
keyboard and composed:

Is there any credability to the belief that tube sound equipment produces much
better quality sound/music than transistor type?

This issue boils down to an oxymoronic question, does tube equipment
produce better quality distortion that solid state gear?


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Mike]

wy hell, back then, watts were actually watts.

now its just a figure of speach to sell something.


you can get a 500 watt amp, and it only truely put out about 50 or so watts.


<maradcliff@UNLISTED.com> wrote in message
news:q29niv80csifolvtjefpmufa63fkooogn2@4ax.com...

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:55:44 -0700, "Sofie" <sofie@olypen.com> wrote:

WbSearch:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Many purists prefer the "softer" sound of tubes versus the "harder" sound
of
solid state. The argument also extends to analog (tapes & vinyl)
versus
digital (CD).
Further out on a limb are those that argue that the big, stiff, pure,
double
insulated, oxygen free, helical wound, copper speaker wire and audio
connection wire with gold connectors greatly IMPROVES the definition,
clarity, and quality of the sound over the cheap zip cord and tin
connector
cords that most of us use.
Many times in the past there were technical tests done relating to all of
the above..... detailed in magazines like Stereo Review and others.....
and the laboratory instruments could not conclusively prove
anything......
neither could the ears of most of the test engineers.
Usually the only ones who are most eager to state the benefits of all of
this are the ones who shelled out the big bucks to buy the esoteric stuff
like speaker wire @ $10 per foot, tube preamps @ $1200, phono cartridges
and
stylus @ $400, etc, etc..

I am not sure which sounds better, but there is one thing that I never
understood. When I was young, I had 2 amplifiers (one for each
channel). Each amp had 4 - 6L6 tubes. If I remember correctly, those
4 output tubes would put out about 60 to 90 watts.
Well, those two amps when opened wide, would blast the windows out,
and I am not just saying that, because once I actually did cause a
window to shatter.
Anyhow, the semiconductor amps now a days are all rated very high in
wattage. Heck, some of those car amps are 500 watts or more. Well,
those two tube amps that I used to have were more powerful than any
modern amp, except for those used on stages. All I can figure is that
the semiconductor amps are rated in a different manner.

And since you mentioned vinyl records VS CD's, I will have to say that
I do prefer vinyl. However, this has been documented. There is a web
site that explains how CD's are sampling, and at high frequencies they
"clip" (distort) the sound because there are not enough samples per
second. The DVD is supposed to sample more times per second so is
supposed to sound better. I think the web site was called "how stuff
works" or something like that.

Mark

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

"Mike" <mbates14@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:iqCXa.18516$dO2.2416@fe2.columbus.rr.com...

wy hell, back then, watts were actually watts.

now its just a figure of speach to sell something.


you can get a 500 watt amp, and it only truely put out about 50 or so
watts.

And that statement is just about as useless as the specifications on most
amplifiers. What exactly do you mean by that?

Leonard Caillouet

 

[glasnostJDC]

I have a late 70's Marantz solid state receiver that I also would never
ditch. Good sound, great look, all that chrome, it's my little beast. My H/K
3370 is comparable though, but its not chrome ;-)

-glasnostJDC

P.S. My opinion, if it sounds good to you use it, if it doesn't try
something else.

"Randy" <ES335@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:vkiv0r3c1d9j80@corp.supernews.com...

Ask a group of professional musician (guitar players) which they prefer
and
the vast majority prefer tube amps. Also, it is common knowledge among
musicians that tube amps of a certain rating will put out more usable
power.
I believe this is due to the ability to push tube amps into a nice
distortion as compared to the harsh distortion of the solid state amps.
Also it sure would be nice if they rated clearly rated amplifiers only at
RMS power over a set frequency range and a maximum IM and harmonic
distortion. Check out the alt.guitar.amps newsgroup.

All that said I would never give up my early 70's Marantz solid state
receiver.

Randy


"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@optussnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:j2ioivoo0d7oe20qhqi1o8td0ng44h23h7@4ax.com...
On 01 Aug 2003 15:40:50 GMT, wbsearch@aol.com (WbSearch) put finger to
keyboard and composed:

Is there any credability to the belief that tube sound equipment
produces
much
better quality sound/music than transistor type?

This issue boils down to an oxymoronic question, does tube equipment
produce better quality distortion that solid state gear?


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.