Trying to learn new methods for PCB Layouts.

I've been a tech for 30 or so years, and a hobbyist even longer. I've
drawn PCBs using sharpies and the little transfer pads Radio Shack
used to sell, then moved on to transfers. Lately I've been playing
around with using Staples photographic paper for transfers, something
I picked up on elsewhere on the net.

I currently use M/S paint to draw schematics, and overall am happy
with the results. I've created a set of templates I cut and past off
of to draw my ideas. I've also played around with using Paint for
drawing board layouts with less than satisfactory results, the 1" =
1.06" size translations built into Paint doesn't cut it. I've worked
around it to some extent, but I would like something better.

I've played around with EagleSoft, but as near as I can tell they
require that you draw the schematics in their format, which is a real
downer. Plus, many of the components I use (I buy surplus a lot)
simply don't exist in their libraries.

Is there any Windows programs I can input pad shapes and define the
connection points that will help me layout boards? I will be
outputing the files through my Laser 6P printer, and of course it
needs to be reversed for transfering. I am new to the jargon, so
please be kind on the acronyms.

Any ideas? Thanks.


On a separate note, this is my first usernet post. The amount of spam
is a bit intimidating, I feel I may have trashed my email account
using it. It does have some meat however, and I was referred here by
Bill Bowden's website, which is very nicely done. I may try something
similar myself. How do you guys control the enormous bulk of spam I
see on the open forum? Thanks again.

 

bill_marsden2@yahoo.com wrote:

I've been a tech for 30 or so years, and a hobbyist even longer. I've
drawn PCBs using sharpies and the little transfer pads Radio Shack
used to sell, then moved on to transfers. Lately I've been playing
around with using Staples photographic paper for transfers, something
I picked up on elsewhere on the net.

Check: http://www.gipsa-lab.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/
Under "Info/install" there's install instructions.
"Download/site iut (ftp)" for download.
Proberbly the KiCad-2007-11-29-c-WinXP_autoinstall.zip file.

On a separate note, this is my first usernet post. The amount of spam
is a bit intimidating, I feel I may have trashed my email account
using it. It does have some meat however, and I was referred here by
Bill Bowden's website, which is very nicely done. I may try something
similar myself. How do you guys control the enormous bulk of spam I
see on the open forum? Thanks again.

Filtering builtin to the nntp reader client. Ofcourse that presumes you are not
using a webinterface.

 

[Geo]

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 01:41:55 -0700 (PDT), bill_marsden2@yahoo.com wrote:

If you are serious about CAD then use a proper schematics drawing package and
pcb layout program not the graphical programs which will not give you any error
checking. It is easy to make your own components to add to the libraries.
Hopefully someone will be along shortly with some specific suggestions... (but
see below about google-groupers)

On a separate note, this is my first usernet post. The amount of spam
is a bit intimidating, I feel I may have trashed my email account
using it. It does have some meat however, and I was referred here by
Bill Bowden's website, which is very nicely done. I may try something
similar myself. How do you guys control the enormous bulk of spam I
see on the open forum?

As you say, this is usenet - not a forum.
You have made two mistakes, the first and major one is that you have used what
looks to be your real email address so you can expect tons of spam in your mail
real soon. Get a disposable email address (I am currently using
9w0b-safk@disposable.spamcon.org) and when you start receiving spam, close it
and get another.
You are using google groups. This is only any use for looking at the newsgroup
archive. Get a proper news client (eg Forte Agent of Thunderbird) and set it up
either with your ISP news server or, if they don't have one, one of the free
servers. You can then apply filters to eliminate most of the junk. Also be aware
that google posters have a bad name in some groups and the regular users will
have filters so that posts from "google-groupers" are never seen - so you will
not be visible to some of the people who could help you most.

luck,

Geo

 

[sycochkn]

<bill_marsden2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5f804186-d7bd-4aef-80e8-e30d5a4eac3b@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

I've been a tech for 30 or so years, and a hobbyist even longer. I've
drawn PCBs using sharpies and the little transfer pads Radio Shack
used to sell, then moved on to transfers. Lately I've been playing
around with using Staples photographic paper for transfers, something
I picked up on elsewhere on the net.

I currently use M/S paint to draw schematics, and overall am happy
with the results. I've created a set of templates I cut and past off
of to draw my ideas. I've also played around with using Paint for
drawing board layouts with less than satisfactory results, the 1" =
1.06" size translations built into Paint doesn't cut it. I've worked
around it to some extent, but I would like something better.

I've played around with EagleSoft, but as near as I can tell they
require that you draw the schematics in their format, which is a real
downer. Plus, many of the components I use (I buy surplus a lot)
simply don't exist in their libraries.

Is there any Windows programs I can input pad shapes and define the
connection points that will help me layout boards? I will be
outputing the files through my Laser 6P printer, and of course it
needs to be reversed for transfering. I am new to the jargon, so
please be kind on the acronyms.

Any ideas? Thanks.


On a separate note, this is my first usernet post. The amount of spam
is a bit intimidating, I feel I may have trashed my email account
using it. It does have some meat however, and I was referred here by
Bill Bowden's website, which is very nicely done. I may try something
similar myself. How do you guys control the enormous bulk of spam I
see on the open forum? Thanks again.

Print on transparency film?
Use presensitized board material?

Bob


Bob

 

The method I've been using is at this site.

http://www.fullnet.com/~tomg/gooteepc.htm

I make maybe 3 boards a year, if that many, so I don't really want to
spend a lot of time climbing a learning curve if I don't have to. I
might have to, but I'm looking around first. Lord knows I've
breadboarded enough stuff over the years. If I can find a decent
vector drawing package with 1:1 scaled output I'd use it in a
heartbeat.

The toner transfer works well. I've had less than spectacular
results, but I believe a lot of that is that learning curve I've
mentioned, and what I have done is usable. For those not in the mood
to read a long explination the short one is to transfer the plastic
toner from a laser printer onto a clean blank PCB and use the toner as
resist. The material used for printing and transfer is cheap
photographic paper from Staples office supply.

This email address is disposable, and already gets quite a bit of
spam. My hotmail address is worse, but I've had it for over 15
years. Call me hardheaded, guilty as charged.

 

The method I've been using is at this site.

http://www.fullnet.com/~tomg/gooteepc.htm


I make maybe 3 boards a year, if that many, so I don't really want to
spend a lot of time climbing a learning curve if I don't have to. I
might have to, but I'm looking around first. Lord knows I've
breadboarded enough stuff over the years. If I can find a decent
vector drawing package with 1:1 scaled output I'd use it in a
heartbeat.


The toner transfer works well. I've had less than spectacular
results, but I believe a lot of that is that learning curve I've
mentioned, and what I have done is usable. For those not in the mood
to read a long explination the short one is to transfer the plastic
toner from a laser printer onto a clean blank PCB and use the toner
as
resist. The material used for printing and transfer is cheap
photographic paper from Staples office supply.


This email address is disposable, and already gets quite a bit of
spam. My hotmail address is worse, but I've had it for over 15
years. Call me hardheaded, guilty as charged.

 

[Rich Webb]

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 05:31:37 -0700, "sycochkn"
<sycochkn@earthlink.net> wrote:

bill_marsden2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5f804186-d7bd-4aef-80e8-e30d5a4eac3b@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
I've been a tech for 30 or so years, and a hobbyist even longer. I've
drawn PCBs using sharpies and the little transfer pads Radio Shack
used to sell, then moved on to transfers. Lately I've been playing
around with using Staples photographic paper for transfers, something
I picked up on elsewhere on the net.

Try Press'n'Peel blue <http://www.techniks.com/> I've found it to be
much easier & cleaner than the other toner transfer methods.

I currently use M/S paint to draw schematics, and overall am happy
with the results. I've created a set of templates I cut and past off
of to draw my ideas. I've also played around with using Paint for
drawing board layouts with less than satisfactory results, the 1" =
1.06" size translations built into Paint doesn't cut it. I've worked
around it to some extent, but I would like something better.

I've played around with EagleSoft, but as near as I can tell they
require that you draw the schematics in their format, which is a real
downer. Plus, many of the components I use (I buy surplus a lot)
simply don't exist in their libraries.

Is there any Windows programs I can input pad shapes and define the
connection points that will help me layout boards? I will be
outputing the files through my Laser 6P printer, and of course it
needs to be reversed for transfering. I am new to the jargon, so
please be kind on the acronyms.

Both Kicad and gEDA are open source apps that you may find will make
your schematic capture and board layout work a whole lot easier. Kicad
has Linux & Windows versions; gEDA is mostly Linux (and other *ix-ish)
operating systems only.

<http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page>
<http://www.geda.seul.org/>

I've successfully made 10/10 rule (10 mil trace, 10 mil spacing)
boards using Kicad and the Press'n'Peel mentioned above. I've also
screwed up a few when the blanks weren't clean, clean, clean or I
overheated the transfer...

Kicad does have editors for schematic modules and PCB component
footprints. Sometimes you do just have to make your own but it's
really not that difficult.

On a separate note, this is my first usernet post. The amount of spam
is a bit intimidating, I feel I may have trashed my email account
using it. It does have some meat however, and I was referred here by
Bill Bowden's website, which is very nicely done. I may try something
similar myself. How do you guys control the enormous bulk of spam I
see on the open forum? Thanks again.

As was mentioned, the huge amount of spam that lately originates from
googlegroups has prompted many participants to simply drop posts from
that service unless they are from a whitelisted sender. Some folks are
using nfilter or a similar local (127.0.0.1) NNTP server as an
intermediary to do that, which allows filtering on any header line as
well as on body text.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

 

[Marra]

I use PCBCAD30 which I got off ebay, approx Ł20 or less.

It has component wizards for inputting new components.

It also does reverse and positive and negative printing.

www.murtonpikesystems.co.uk

 

[JeffM]

bill_marsden2@ yahoo.com wrote:

this is my first usernet post.

That's USENET (no "r").

You might start by giving yourself a *real* username on that line
http://groups.google.com/groups/mysubs?
rather than an email address
(which Google makes difficult to use via obfuscation).

The amount of spam is a bit intimidating,
I feel I may have trashed my email account using it.

This is why spamgormet (et al) exist.

Only give your *real* email address
to people you would trust to hold your wallet
--and only AFTER they can tell you what "BCC" means.

....and investigate "Bayesian Filter".
Thunderbird and SeaMonkey have them built-in.

How do you guys control the enormous bulk of spam
I see on the open forum?

Not "forum"; NEWSGROUP or simply GROUP.

"Get a *real* newsreader" has been mentioned.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:nQjcXUKFOLoJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_news_clients+*-Gravity+Free+GPL+Microsoft.Windows+501+501+*-Agent+Xnews+Pan+Thunderbird+Traditional.Newsreader+501+Combination+501+501+501+Cross-platform

The 2nd echelon (actually the 1st) is a Local Proxy Server for
filtering:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/c81e08ab4c6f9893/266ddc3204469844?q=*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.can.also.be.checked+allows.either+messages-with-a-score-*-will-be-loaded+zz-zz+qq+after.all.rules.have.been.applied+*-google-groupers-impersonating-others+The.Hamster.scoring.scheme
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/c6c66638a7a78f10/de1b4abeae5f920e?q=Agent-will-dispose-of-*-flagged-messages+whitelist+adds-text-to-the-Subject-line-*-downloads-*-headers+leaves-*-unmarked-messages-on-*-server+DROP+googlegroups+FLAG+uar+nfilter+all+bye+easy

If you're going to continue to use Google,
(which is only a valid choice for the truly oppressed these days) 8-(
*this* is the best that's available: (a GreaseMonkey script)
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:5ObULHLej58J:www.penney.org/category/google-groups+pops-the-useful-bits-*-*-into-the-nav+Google.Groups.Plus+Google.Groups.KillFile+powered+proudly+Entries+Greasemonkey+removes.*.*.*.third.column+*-script-*-cleans-the-new-UI-*

This is invaluable as well:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:HUR2Xv71qsIJ:blazerin05.livejournal.com/1519.html+right.click+Nuke.Anything+remove.anything+ads+zz+zz+you.name.it
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:6AWzVo9aLToJ:addons.mozilla.org/firefox/951+Remove.everything.else+Remove.Selection
..
..

I currently use M/S paint to draw schematics,

You will find VECTOR formats MUCH more useful

(The files are smaller too.)

and overall am happy with the results.

....like the guy that's still down on the farm and hasn't seen Paris.

off of
to draw my ideas.

Had you **investigated** things *first*,

not only would you have found a more apt (VECTOR-based) tool,
it would have come with LIBRARIES so you wouldn't have had to do that.

I've also played around with using Paint for drawing board layouts
with less than satisfactory results,

Again: A **VECTOR** format.

(Once you use "rubberbanding", you'll say "WTF was I thinking
before?")

Getting a purpose-built application which has
*Design Rules Check* and *Electrical Rules Check*
will save you lots of time and pulling of hair as well.

I've played around with EagleSoft,

I assume you mean Cadsoft EAGLE Lite.

but as near as I can tell they require that you
draw the schematics in their format, which is a real downer.

Again: VECTOR formats ARE SUPERIOR to bitmaps.

The sooner you abandon your "investment" in your hand-drawn
bitmap stuff, the sooner your life gets better.

It constantly amazes me how people go to Google to post

and DON'T use the search engine.
This is one of the MOST-DISCUSSED topics in these groups
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?&q=KiCAD+ingroup:sci.electronics&scoring=d

Reading what ALREADY exists, you will find Mike Harrison's site
and others.
I assume you already found Tom Gootee's site.

Plus, many of the components I use (I buy surplus a lot)
simply don't exist in their libraries.

The sooner you get over that, the sooner your life gets better.

In fact, WRT Cadsoft,
NOT using other people's libraries is a Good Idea(tm):
**The Downside of EAGLE (DRM)** by Markus Zingg
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d26b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-will-switch+cracked-*+*.would.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied+*.*.unlock.*.designs+*-*-*-*-exchange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+useless+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened

For this reason (treating their customers like thieves),
I recommend that people AVOID EAGLE.

***KiCAD*** has been mentioned. It is *Free Software* (gratis and
libre).
There is an active support group for it.
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?&q=groups.yahoo+kicad-users+kicad+users+ingroup:sci.electronics

A real ECAD program comes with a Library Editor
so regaining the lost ground is a small investment.
Using library components from KiCAD uses
(AGAIN: **NOT** EAGLE USERS) makes things easier.

KiCAD does **NOT** have a limit of 3" x 4" and 2-layers either.
This is *truly* FREE software. (*Free* as in beer
AND *free* as in freedom to do what you want to with it.)
..
..
....and "Marra" is a deceitful spammer. KNOW YOUR VENDOR:

His business philosophy:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/9e7b1c069b0019ad/83b2dd3589ee607b?q=zz-zz+support+no.business.ethics+profit+*-*-the-ethics+uu-uu+suckers

His business ethics:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/26252921f675cbc4/235e04a9400c8084?q=zz-zz+qq+SPAM+PCBCAD21+Astroturfing+uu+a.real.jerk

The product:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/msg/1f5491d886b45893?q=If.*.*.*.any.good+zz-zz+qq+pcbcad21+uu+*.better.presentation.would.help.*.*+*-hard-to-read-*-*-*-*-*-*-website-*+kk+*.*.*.ugliest.schematics.and.pcb.layouts.I've.seen.in.a.long.time

 

[Bob Woodward]

Marra wrote:

I use PCBCAD30 which I got off ebay, approx Ł20 or less.

It has component wizards for inputting new components.

It also does reverse and positive and negative printing.

www.murtonpikesystems.co.uk

Hi Bill

Ignore Marra, he is crazy.
He buys his own software via Ebay
( so he has a customer at last )

Robert

 

[Trevor Morgan]

On 25 Mar, 08:50, Bob Woodward <"Bob Woodward"@no.org> wrote:

Marra wrote:
I use PCBCAD30 which I got off ebay, approx Ł20 or less.

It has component wizards for inputting new components.

It also does reverse and positive and negative printing.

www.murtonpikesystems.co.uk

Hi Bill

Ignore Marra, he is crazy.
He buys his own software via Ebay
( so he has a customer at last )

Robert

If you want a real laugh - have a look on You Tube - search on
nigelwright7557
- and you will come up with the 16 most rubbish
videos you have ever seen - apparently he plays with his
guitar to recorded music ! Really pathetic!
And then he takes train rides and videos through carriage windows
that
have initials scratched in it - so all you really notice is the
defaced window rather than the awful videoing of the passing
countryside.
(Thought Marra said he NEVER travels on trains now???? Bet the Eden
Valley Railway will be upset to think that he does not consider them
to be a railway!)

BUT......... the best is yet to come -


Yes it is Marra's own "Rocking DJ Disco ".... which was added six
months ago and already has 148 viewers (althought I suspect looking
at
the videos Marra probably sits in his lonely hours visiting You Tube
just to push up the viewing numbers )


Any way - don't all rush at once to view them - we don't want You
Tube
to crash under the pressure.


Those videos have really made my day - and many thanks to my new
colleage from the Cumbrian Railways chatgroup for telling me about it
- I expect there will be a lot more tales to come down from Cumbria
before the year is out!

Do feel free to circulate this to as many people as you like !

 

[Joel Koltner]

"Trevor Morgan" <trevor-morgan50@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:30f9f97f-411b-427e-a6e9-b1703f3bd903@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On 25 Mar, 08:50, Bob Woodward <"Bob Woodward"@no.org> wrote:
"If you want a real laugh - have a look on You Tube - search on
nigelwright7557
- and you will come up with the 16 most rubbish
videos you have ever seen"

I took a look at a couple and, yeah, they're nothing great, but I do think
they're part and parcel for YouTube. I don't judge people based on how bad
their YouTube videos are.

" - apparently he plays with his
guitar to recorded music ! Really pathetic!"

He's trying to learn to play guitar better, maybe? He deserves credit for
trying to learn new skills -- even Jimmy Hendrix would have been completely
pathetic playing guitar at some point... I wonder if he'd been born in, e.g.,
2000 he'd have put some of those pathetic videos up on YouTube?

"Yes it is Marra's own "Rocking DJ Disco ".... which was added six
months ago and already has 148 viewers"

Unfortunately (?) this one wasn't working when I tried to click on it.

 

On 3ÔÂ24ČŐ, ĎÂÎç4Ęą41ˇÖ, bill_marsd...@yahoo.com wrote:

I've been a tech for 30 or so years, and a hobbyist even longer. I've
drawn PCBs using sharpies and the little transfer pads Radio Shack
used to sell, then moved on to transfers. Lately I've been playing
around with using Staples photographic paper for transfers, something
I picked up on elsewhere on the net.

I currently use M/S paint to draw schematics, and overall am happy
with the results. I've created a set of templates I cut and past off
of to draw my ideas. I've also played around with using Paint for
drawing board layouts with less than satisfactory results, the 1" > 1.06" size translations built into Paint doesn't cut it. I've worked
around it to some extent, but I would like something better.

I've played around with EagleSoft, but as near as I can tell they
require that you draw the schematics in their format, which is a real
downer. Plus, many of the components I use (I buy surplus a lot)
simply don't exist in their libraries.

Is there any Windows programs I can input pad shapes and define the
connection points that will help me layout boards? I will be
outputing the files through my Laser 6P printer, and of course it
needs to be reversed for transfering. I am new to the jargon, so
please be kind on the acronyms.

Any ideas? Thanks.

On a separate note, this is my first usernet post. The amount of spam
is a bit intimidating, I feel I may have trashed my email account
using it. It does have some meat however, and I was referred here by
Bill Bowden's website, which is very nicely done. I may try something
similar myself. How do you guys control the enormous bulk of spam I
see on the open forum? Thanks again.

Do you want access to China's massive pool of electronic
manufacturers... but lack the time to contact suppliers, negotiate
contracts, arrange shipping or monitor product quality? Don't worry -
Let seriouswholesale deal with all that for you.

*Check out the huge range of Gadgets, MP3 / MP4 Players, Car DVD /
Audio, and Computer Accessories now by visiting the online wholesale
catalog at seriouswholesale. com You'll have peace of mind thanks to
the seriouswholesale Quality Control, 12-month Warranty on all
products, and easy secure payment by credit card through Paypal.

Selling on eBay or your own online store? Send products direct from
our warehouse to your customers using our unique drop-shipping
service. You can profit by selling hundreds of different products,
without holding any of your own inventory! Any questions you have will
be answered by the seriouswholesale English-speaking customer support
team... Their aim is to make your China electronics importing business
easier to run than ever before.

Welcome to http://www.seriouswholesale.com.

seriouswholesale - Buy from the source, profit without the hassle.

- 12 Months Warranty - No minimum order restrictions - Drop-shipping
with no additional fee - Pay by safely by PayPal seriouswholesale
Wholesale Co., Ltd.: Chinas original and best online electronics
wholesaler & drop-shipper: seriouswholesale. com

 

[Marra]

On Mar 25, 8:24 pm, Trevor Morgan <trevor-morga...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

On 25 Mar, 08:50, Bob Woodward <"Bob Woodward"@no.org> wrote:





Marra wrote:
I usePCBCAD30which I got off ebay, approx Ł20 or less.

It has component wizards for inputting new components.

It also does reverse and positive and negative printing.

www.murtonpikesystems.co.uk

Hi Bill

Ignore Marra, he is crazy.
He buys his own software via Ebay
( so he has a customer at last )

Robert

If you want a real laugh - have a look on You Tube - search on
nigelwright7557
  - and you will come up with the 16 most rubbish
videos you have ever seen - apparently he plays with his
guitar to recorded music !  Really pathetic!
And then he takes train rides and videos through carriage windows
that
have initials scratched in it - so all you really notice is the
defaced window rather than the awful videoing of the passing
countryside.
(Thought Marra said he NEVER travels on trains now????  Bet the Eden
Valley Railway will be upset to think that he does not consider them
to be a railway!)

BUT......... the best is yet to come -

Yes it is Marra's own "Rocking DJ Disco ".... which was added six
months ago and already has 148 viewers (althought I suspect looking
at
the videos Marra probably sits in his lonely hours visiting You Tube
just to push up the viewing numbers )

Any way - don't all rush at once to view them - we don't want You
Tube
to crash under the pressure.

Those videos have really made my day - and many thanks to my new
colleage from the Cumbrian Railways chatgroup for telling me about it
- I expect there will be a lot more tales to come down from Cumbria
before the year is out!

Do feel free to circulate this to as many people as you like !- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for propogating this thread.
Sold 20 copies of my software this week.
How would you like your commission ?