transistor saturation

Guest
So I'm reading up on transistor basics:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/trancirc.htm

"A transistor that is full on (with R_CE = 0) is said to be
'saturated'."

Is saturated R_CE really ever 0, though? I mean, 0.000 ohms?

My DMM routinely gives 0.1 ohm readings on bare wire, for instance.

What are typical REAL values for saturated R_CE? Say, for a TIP31A or
a 2N3055?

The datasheets don't seem to give these saturated R_CE values,
interestingly enough.

Thanks,

Michael
 
mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

So I'm reading up on transistor basics:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/trancirc.htm

"A transistor that is full on (with R_CE = 0) is said to be
'saturated'."

Is saturated R_CE really ever 0, though? I mean, 0.000 ohms?
Click to expand...
NO.

For starters there's the intrinsic resistance of the semiconductor
material. You can NEVER get below that. That's a big issue for low noise
too.

Graham
 
mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:
So I'm reading up on transistor basics:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/trancirc.htm

"A transistor that is full on (with R_CE = 0) is said to be
'saturated'."

Is saturated R_CE really ever 0, though? I mean, 0.000 ohms?

NO.

For starters there's the intrinsic resistance of the semiconductor
material. You can NEVER get below that. That's a big issue for low noise
too.

I had a feeling that's why they can get hot... I^2 R heat losses...
Click to expand...
For sure.


Why are R_CE values not standard on datasheets though?
Click to expand...
Because most bjts are used in the linear region I suppose ?

Graham
 
On Apr 15, 10:41 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:
So I'm reading up on transistor basics:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/trancirc.htm

"A transistor that is full on (with R_CE = 0) is said to be
'saturated'."

Is saturated R_CE really ever 0, though? I mean, 0.000 ohms?

NO.

For starters there's the intrinsic resistance of the semiconductor
material. You can NEVER get below that. That's a big issue for low noise
too.

Graham
Click to expand...

I had a feeling that's why they can get hot... I^2 R heat losses...

Why are R_CE values not standard on datasheets though?

Michael
 
On Apr 15, 11:02 am, mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Apr 15, 10:41 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com
wrote:



mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:
So I'm reading up on transistor basics:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/trancirc.htm

"A transistor that is full on (with R_CE = 0) is said to be
'saturated'."

Is saturated R_CE really ever 0, though? I mean, 0.000 ohms?

NO.

For starters there's the intrinsic resistance of the semiconductor
material. You can NEVER get below that. That's a big issue for low noise
too.

Graham

I had a feeling that's why they can get hot... I^2 R heat losses...

Why are R_CE values not standard on datasheets though?

Michael
Click to expand...

<maximally_pedantic_mode_on>
meant to say I^2 R power (not heat) losses.

take care of your units, and your units will take care of you...
<maximally_pedantic_mode_off>

Michael
 
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:06:22 -0700 (PDT), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

So I'm reading up on transistor basics:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/trancirc.htm

"A transistor that is full on (with R_CE = 0) is said to be
'saturated'."

Is saturated R_CE really ever 0, though? I mean, 0.000 ohms?

My DMM routinely gives 0.1 ohm readings on bare wire, for instance.

What are typical REAL values for saturated R_CE? Say, for a TIP31A or
a 2N3055?

The datasheets don't seem to give these saturated R_CE values,
interestingly enough.
Click to expand...
---
They give you Vce(sat) at one, or several currents and from that you
can calculate the resistance at those currents:

Vce(sat)
Rce(sat) = ---------
Ic

JF
 
mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

So I'm reading up on transistor basics:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/trancirc.htm

"A transistor that is full on (with R_CE = 0) is said to be
'saturated'."

Is saturated R_CE really ever 0, though? I mean, 0.000 ohms?

My DMM routinely gives 0.1 ohm readings on bare wire, for instance.

What are typical REAL values for saturated R_CE? Say, for a TIP31A or
a 2N3055?

The datasheets don't seem to give these saturated R_CE values,
interestingly enough.

Thanks,

Michael
Look harder on the data sheet.
Click to expand...
Saturation means it's at the lowest R level it can reach per that
component.
The spec's will tell you the voltage across the CE at that point.
from there you can use ohms law to find the actual R and what ever
else you need.



http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"
 
Jamie wrote:

mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

The datasheets don't seem to give these saturated R_CE values,
interestingly enough.

Look harder on the data sheet.
Click to expand...
NO. That will make NO DIFFERENCE.

Graham
 
Jamie wrote:

Saturation means it's at the lowest R level it can reach per that
component.
Click to expand...
At what ratio of Ib/Ic ?

You're talking out of your bottom as usual. There is no simple definition of
saturation, it has to be specified by Vce and Ic and Ib/Ic. All THREE need
to be specified.


Graham
 
Eeyore wrote:

Jamie wrote:


Saturation means it's at the lowest R level it can reach per that
component.


At what ratio of Ib/Ic ?

You're talking out of your bottom as usual. There is no simple definition of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Click to expand...
as usually, you're doing your norm. Looking at guys asses!
saturation, it has to be specified by Vce and Ic and Ib/Ic. All THREE need
to be specified.


Graham

Just don't get me going!.
Click to expand...
And I'll say it again for the other reader, "LOOK HARDER" the
spec's are in the data sheet that will yield maximum saturation.


--
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"
 
Jamie wrote:

And I'll say it again for the other reader, "LOOK HARDER" the
spec's are in the data sheet that will yield maximum saturation.
Click to expand...
At WHAT RATIO of Ib/Ic ???????

You DO NOT know what you're talking about as usual.

Graham
 
Eeyore wrote:
Jamie wrote:


And I'll say it again for the other reader, "LOOK HARDER" the
spec's are in the data sheet that will yield maximum saturation.


At WHAT RATIO of Ib/Ic ???????

You DO NOT know what you're talking about as usual.

Graham

Stop wasting my time ignoramus, you're way out of
Click to expand...
your league.

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"
 
On Apr 15, 10:06 am, mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:
So I'm reading up on transistor basics:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/trancirc.htm

"A transistor that is full on (with R_CE = 0) is said to be
'saturated'."

Is saturated R_CE really ever 0, though?  I mean, 0.000 ohms?

My DMM routinely gives 0.1 ohm readings on bare wire, for instance.

What are typical REAL values for saturated R_CE?  Say, for a TIP31A or
a 2N3055?

The datasheets don't seem to give these saturated R_CE values,
interestingly enough.

Thanks,

Michael
Click to expand...
A bipolar transistor doesn't have a fixed resistance any more than a
diode does.
Under ordinary operating conditions, as you gradually adjust the diode
current, the voltage across it changes much less than does
"resistance," defined as voltage divided by current. So with a diode
you graph voltage versus current. Nobody talks about resistance.
A bjt has diode junctions in it.
If you're looking for a measurement that will stay fairly steady for a
bjt, you are better off looking at the collector-emitter voltage
drop. Even that will vary as you change the current. But get some
numbers from a datasheet and do a little arithmetic and decide for
yourself whether it makes more sense to talk about "resistance" or
voltage across a bjt.
If you want a semiconductor that has an operating region where it acts
like a resistor, check out a mosfet. But be aware that for any given
gate voltage, you have to keep the drain current below a certain
maximum value or the device will stop acting like a resistor and start
acting like a constant-current source.
It's all very interesting, you could study this stuff for years.
Now get started, ya bum!
 
"gearhead" <nospam@billburg.com> wrote in message
news:ea4b2399-317b-44ec-9adc-57d3f4eb55d5@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 10:06 am, mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:
So I'm reading up on transistor basics:
Click to expand...

In response to mdarrett, the way to ensure that a bjt takes a particular
current is to use a resistor from emitter to rail. So, say you want about
10mA. you do this:

I |
V
|
|
|
|
|
V = 0.7 + I*R |/
.----------|
| |>
| |
| |
| |
/+\ |
( ) .-.
\-/ | | R
| | |
| '-'
| |
| |
=== ===
GND GND
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)

The thing you can depend on is that the NPN transistor has a voltage drop of
about 0.7V from base to emitter under most load situations.

So, you use that fact to make the current be a (relatively) linear function
of base voltage.

You never try to figure out what the actual current is going to be, give a
base voltage or current, since it depends on too many factors, like
manufacturing variance, temperature, etc. Also, the current is an
exponential function of voltage, so it is very hard to get that voltage just
right so the transistor passes the right current.

Now, there are exceptions to every rule except one (this one).

Regards,
Bob Monsen
 
Tim Wescott wrote:
mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:
On Apr 15, 10:41 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com
wrote:
(snip)
Why are R_CE values not standard on datasheets though?

Probably because a bipolar junction transistor in saturation doesn't
really act like a resistor, so characterizing it with an R_CE would be
misleading.
Click to expand...
In reality, I think bipolar junction transistors do act
quite a bit like resistors, collector to emitter (with a
small DC offset in series, perhaps) when the collector to
emitter voltage drop is below the base to emitter voltage in
magnitude. And more base current lowers the value of that
resistance and the resistance holds fairly constant even as
the collector to emitter voltage passes through zero.

MOSFETs act a lot like resistors when they're conducting, so you _can_
specify an R_DS without lying.
Click to expand...
MOSFETS also show a resistive effect whenever the drain to
source voltage is less than the gate to source voltage in
magnitude. But since the gate to source voltage tends to be
a lot larger than the base to emitter voltage where the
resistive effect occurs, the resistive mode of a MOSFET is
usable over a larger voltage range than the resistive mode
of the bipolar transistor.

--
Regards,

John Popelish
 
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:35:02 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:06:22 -0700 (PDT), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

So I'm reading up on transistor basics:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/trancirc.htm

"A transistor that is full on (with R_CE = 0) is said to be
'saturated'."

Is saturated R_CE really ever 0, though? I mean, 0.000 ohms?

My DMM routinely gives 0.1 ohm readings on bare wire, for instance.

What are typical REAL values for saturated R_CE? Say, for a TIP31A or
a 2N3055?

The datasheets don't seem to give these saturated R_CE values,
interestingly enough.

---
They give you Vce(sat) at one, or several currents and from that you
can calculate the resistance at those currents:

Vce(sat)
Rce(sat) = ---------
Ic
Click to expand...

Which gets interesting when Ic = 0


John
 
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