Transducer Directly Outputs Something Halfway Between Displa

[Bret Cahill]

This particular output is already possible -- the units would be meter/
second^1/2 -- simply by taking the -1/2 order derivative of a
speedometer or by taking the +1/2 order derivative of the output of a
displacement transducer.

The question here is, can you build a transducer that outputs this
quantity directly?

A half-way-between-charge-and-current sensor may also be possible.

Supposing partial transducers turned out to be cheaper, had better
linearity or were enough smaller so that it was cost effective to
replace conventional sensors with even with the additional necessary
step of taking fractional derivatives or fractional anti-derivatives?


Bret Cahill

 

[Jeff Johnson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_calculus



"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:93f17103-b5d6-49eb-b5f1-f3b02cb6cfc7@e11g2000prm.googlegroups.com...

This particular output is already possible -- the units would be meter/
second^1/2 -- simply by taking the -1/2 order derivative of a
speedometer or by taking the +1/2 order derivative of the output of a
displacement transducer.

The question here is, can you build a transducer that outputs this
quantity directly?

A half-way-between-charge-and-current sensor may also be possible.

Supposing partial transducers turned out to be cheaper, had better
linearity or were enough smaller so that it was cost effective to
replace conventional sensors with even with the additional necessary
step of taking fractional derivatives or fractional anti-derivatives?


Bret Cahill

 

[CWatters]

On 05/03/2011 00:44, Bret Cahill wrote:

This particular output is already possible -- the units would be meter/
second^1/2 -- simply by taking the -1/2 order derivative of a
speedometer or by taking the +1/2 order derivative of the output of a
displacement transducer.

The question here is, can you build a transducer that outputs this
quantity directly?

A half-way-between-charge-and-current sensor may also be possible.

Supposing partial transducers turned out to be cheaper, had better
linearity or were enough smaller so that it was cost effective to
replace conventional sensors with even with the additional necessary
step of taking fractional derivatives or fractional anti-derivatives?


Bret Cahill

Why would you want such a sensor?

 

[Bret Cahill]

This particular output is already possible -- the units would be meter/
second^1/2 -- simply by taking the -1/2 order derivative of a
speedometer or by taking the +1/2 order derivative of the output of a
displacement transducer.

The question here is, can you build a transducer that outputs this
quantity directly?

A half-way-between-charge-and-current sensor may also be possible.

Supposing partial transducers turned out to be cheaper, had better
linearity or were enough smaller so that it was cost effective to
replace conventional sensors with even with the additional necessary
step of taking fractional derivatives or fractional anti-derivatives?

Bret Cahill

Why would you want such a sensor?

Computation costs have dropped to nothing yet many conventional
"integer order" transducers seem to be resistant to price drops.
There might be some opportunities to calculate around a sensor that
wouldn't ordinarily be considered because it only put out a quantity
that wasn't easy to recognize.

Exploiting cheap data processing to enhance transducer output isn't
new. When the repeatability error is less than the linearity it's
cheap and easy to include a calibration chart for the entire range, 0
to full scale. For load cells the accuracy can improve as much as an
order of magnitude.

Fractional derivatives aren't the same kind of "linearity" but there
may be some effects out there that might be worth a second look.

The simple offset block capacitor filter is actually putting out a
fractional derivative.
It's unlikely that's the only situation in nature where a device
putting out fractional derivative is very cheap and very effective.

It seems plausible that other cheap simple devices putting out
fractional derivatives could also be highly accurate transducers once
it undergoes the right processing.

A displacement-velocity example isn't the best but it may help explain
the goal. If displacements are measured with a variable inductor and
velocities with a magnet in a coil, maybe replacing the variable
inductor bar with a magnet might output something that could be
processed into something useful.


Bret Cahill

 

[Tom Potter]

Bret Cahill's thread about transducers
motivated me to write this article.

Science attempts to determine the quantity
of orthogonal properties at points.

For example,
one might want to know
the three dimensional stresses and strains
on a jet engine,
and the angular velocity and temperature of the engine.

Historically science and engineering
have tried to focus transducers on one property
by compensating or "zeroing out"
the affects of properties
other than the one the observer is trying to
correlate with something.
( Failure, noise, vibration, etc.)

I suggest that the best way to find out what is
going on at a point,
is to attach a transmitter at the point,
that transmits a quasi-random code
that identifies the point,
like the codes used to identify cell phones
GPS satellites, migrating birds, etc.

and to modulate the data portion of the signal
with orthogonal signals output from a "multiducer",
a device sensitive to various properties in the environment,

and develop sophisticated software to
separate out the various property components in the signal,
much like medical imaging software.

The "multiducer" could be something like
a quartz crystal or even a living thing like a bug,
or even a more complex animal that has been
conditioned to respond to certain environmental conditions.

For example, during WWII,
the Germans trained pigeons to peck
at a"joystick" to center aerial pictures of places in London,
with the intension of using the pigeons as
control mechanisms for rocket bombs.

An animal is not only hardwired
as a "multiducer" for many properties,
(Such as temperature, noise, oxygen level, vibration, etc.)
it can be conditioned to identify other properties
such as X, Y and Z (Size of the picture), orientation, etc.

For example, you could load a pig, dog, etc. with a WMD,
and have it find a Wal-Mart, and to activate it's "payload".

Observe that a "navigatible" "multiducer" could not only transmit
information
based on it's hard wiring and conditioning (Programming)
it could be steered to minimize or maximize various
environmental conditions.
( It could approach or avoid noise, temperature, Wal-Mart, etc.)

Come to think of it,
the Mass Media and search engines like Google
are already "programming" dumb animals
to serve as carriers and activators of WMDs,

and things like WWI, WWII, the Spanish Civil War,
the Iraqi War, America's Urban Rebellion
the various revolutions such as the ongoing ones,
General Relativity, etc.

--
Tom Potter
-----------------
http://www.prioritize.biz/
http://voices.yuku.com/forums/66
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com/siteindex.zhtml
http://xrl.in/63g4
http://www.tompotter.us
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com

 

[Bob Masta]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 13:18:14 +0800, "Tom Potter"
<tdp1001@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

For example, during WWII,
the Germans trained pigeons to peck
at a"joystick" to center aerial pictures of places in London,
with the intension of using the pigeons as
control mechanisms for rocket bombs.

Do you have a citation for this? To the best of my
knowlege, the pigeon-as-guidance system was devised by B.F
Skinner in the USA. It was never deployed. (I can imagine
that no matter how well it might have worked, there would
have been a natural reluctance to entrust bomb targeting to
birds. Nobody in authority would have wanted to risk the
consequences to his career in event of a fiasco.)

Best regards,


Bob Masta

DAQARTA v6.00
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter
Frequency Counter, FREE Signal Generator
Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI
Science with your sound card!

 

[Tom Biasi]

"Bob Masta" wrote in message
news:4d739750.969846@news.eternal-september.org...

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 13:18:14 +0800, "Tom Potter"
<tdp1001@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

For example, during WWII,
the Germans trained pigeons to peck
at a"joystick" to center aerial pictures of places in London,
with the intension of using the pigeons as
control mechanisms for rocket bombs.

Do you have a citation for this? To the best of my
knowlege, the pigeon-as-guidance system was devised by B.F
Skinner in the USA. It was never deployed. (I can imagine
that no matter how well it might have worked, there would
have been a natural reluctance to entrust bomb targeting to
birds. Nobody in authority would have wanted to risk the
consequences to his career in event of a fiasco.)

Best regards,


Bob Masta

DAQARTA v6.00
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter
Frequency Counter, FREE Signal Generator
Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI
Science with your sound card!

Just more folklore Bob, just like the RAF eating bilberries for better night
vision.
If I'm wrong show me and I will apologize.

Tom

 

[Rich Grise]

Bob Masta wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 13:18:14 +0800, "Tom Potter"
snip
For example, during WWII,
the Germans trained pigeons to peck
at a"joystick" to center aerial pictures of places in London,
with the intension of using the pigeons as
control mechanisms for rocket bombs.

Do you have a citation for this? To the best of my
knowlege, the pigeon-as-guidance system was devised by B.F
Skinner in the USA. It was never deployed. (I can imagine
that no matter how well it might have worked, there would
have been a natural reluctance to entrust bomb targeting to
birds. Nobody in authority would have wanted to risk the
consequences to his career in event of a fiasco.)

In the article I saw on edjamacaishunal teevee, they were

using them to find downed airmen on the ocean. I have no idea
how to verify or refute that - wait a sec.... yeah, google's
got nothing. Oh, well!

Cheers!@
Rich

 

[Bob Masta]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:12:38 -0500, "Tom Biasi"
<tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote:

"Bob Masta" wrote in message
news:4d739750.969846@news.eternal-september.org...

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 13:18:14 +0800, "Tom Potter"
tdp1001@yahoo.com> wrote:

snip

For example, during WWII,
the Germans trained pigeons to peck
at a"joystick" to center aerial pictures of places in London,
with the intension of using the pigeons as
control mechanisms for rocket bombs.

Do you have a citation for this? To the best of my
knowlege, the pigeon-as-guidance system was devised by B.F
Skinner in the USA. It was never deployed. (I can imagine
that no matter how well it might have worked, there would
have been a natural reluctance to entrust bomb targeting to
birds. Nobody in authority would have wanted to risk the
consequences to his career in event of a fiasco.)

Best regards,


Bob Masta


Just more folklore Bob, just like the RAF eating bilberries for better night
vision.
If I'm wrong show me and I will apologize.

Not sure which you are referring to as folklore. I have
found nothing regarding a German program, so that doesn't
seem to have made the cut as folklore. The Skinner program
is well known. Since he was such a famous (infamous?)
scientist, whose later work in behaviorism made him the
target of every wing nut in Congress, I expect that this
part of his history has been pretty well scrutinized by now.

Best regards,


Bob Masta

DAQARTA v6.00
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter
Frequency Counter, FREE Signal Generator
Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI
Science with your sound card!

 

[Bret Cahill]

The "multiducer" could be something like
a quartz crystal or even a living thing like a bug,
or even a more complex animal that has been
conditioned to respond to certain environmental conditions.

Stress on an ecosystem may result in a resolution as good or better
that any other difference measurement tactic such as a Wheatstone
bridge.

For a possible example, ocean acidification may not be directly good
for any critter but it may harm some more than others. If a mussel
shell becomes easier to crush there could be a boom then bust in the
crab population. That would make more sense than warmer Antarctic
waters attracting crabs for the first time in 40 million years. The
ocean has been warmer many times over that time period but the pH
hasn't been this low in 30 million years.

Another high resolution indicator of increases in ocean levels would
be to monitor the frequency that roads on the Outer Banks become
covered with sand. There is no geological reason for the an area 4
times the size of Mecklenburg County to be less than 3 feet above sea
level. The only possible explanation is that there is some
equilibrium with the sea level. If the ocean doesn't rise at too fast
a rate the Outer Banks may try to keep up with it -- except for U.S.
58. If that road doesn't sink much, it should become covered with
sand more often. The roads at the extreme northern end in SE Va. are
swept about 4 times a year. Everything else being equal, if the
sweeping increases then the theory that Outer Banks may survive
climate change may have some validity.


Bret Cahill

 

[Tom Biasi]

"Bob Masta" wrote in message
news:4d74e322.1053728@news.eternal-september.org...

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:12:38 -0500, "Tom Biasi"
<tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote:

"Bob Masta" wrote in message
news:4d739750.969846@news.eternal-september.org...

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 13:18:14 +0800, "Tom Potter"
tdp1001@yahoo.com> wrote:

snip

For example, during WWII,
the Germans trained pigeons to peck
at a"joystick" to center aerial pictures of places in London,
with the intension of using the pigeons as
control mechanisms for rocket bombs.

Do you have a citation for this? To the best of my
knowlege, the pigeon-as-guidance system was devised by B.F
Skinner in the USA. It was never deployed. (I can imagine
that no matter how well it might have worked, there would
have been a natural reluctance to entrust bomb targeting to
birds. Nobody in authority would have wanted to risk the
consequences to his career in event of a fiasco.)

Best regards,


Bob Masta


Just more folklore Bob, just like the RAF eating bilberries for better
night
vision.
If I'm wrong show me and I will apologize.

Not sure which you are referring to as folklore. I have
found nothing regarding a German program, so that doesn't
seem to have made the cut as folklore. The Skinner program
is well known. Since he was such a famous (infamous?)
scientist, whose later work in behaviorism made him the
target of every wing nut in Congress, I expect that this
part of his history has been pretty well scrutinized by now.

Best regards,


Bob Masta

It's mentioned quite a lot, here is one article.

http://books.google.com/books?id=C9NtR6t4NBYC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=the+Germans+trained+pigeons+to&source=bl&ots=8ZCSgOfaog&sig=8abOEgpjtKm4DlUUfNVhrUQQ-Ic&hl=en&ei=sg52Tb2XDsTJgQf11KHDBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&sqi=2&ved=0CEcQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=the%20Germans%20trained%20pigeons%20to&f=false

Tom

 

[Bob Masta]

On Tue, 8 Mar 2011 06:14:12 -0500, "Tom Biasi"
<tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote:

"Bob Masta" wrote in message
news:4d74e322.1053728@news.eternal-september.org...

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:12:38 -0500, "Tom Biasi"
tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote:



"Bob Masta" wrote in message
news:4d739750.969846@news.eternal-september.org...

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 13:18:14 +0800, "Tom Potter"
tdp1001@yahoo.com> wrote:

snip

For example, during WWII,
the Germans trained pigeons to peck
at a"joystick" to center aerial pictures of places in London,
with the intension of using the pigeons as
control mechanisms for rocket bombs.

Do you have a citation for this? To the best of my
knowlege, the pigeon-as-guidance system was devised by B.F
Skinner in the USA. It was never deployed. (I can imagine
that no matter how well it might have worked, there would
have been a natural reluctance to entrust bomb targeting to
birds. Nobody in authority would have wanted to risk the
consequences to his career in event of a fiasco.)

Best regards,


Bob Masta


Just more folklore Bob, just like the RAF eating bilberries for better
night
vision.
If I'm wrong show me and I will apologize.


Not sure which you are referring to as folklore. I have
found nothing regarding a German program, so that doesn't
seem to have made the cut as folklore. The Skinner program
is well known. Since he was such a famous (infamous?)
scientist, whose later work in behaviorism made him the
target of every wing nut in Congress, I expect that this
part of his history has been pretty well scrutinized by now.

Best regards,


Bob Masta

It's mentioned quite a lot, here is one article.

http://books.google.com/books?id=C9NtR6t4NBYC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=the+Germans+trained+pigeons+to&source=bl&ots=8ZCSgOfaog&sig=8abOEgpjtKm4DlUUfNVhrUQQ-Ic&hl=en&ei=sg52Tb2XDsTJgQf11KHDBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&sqi=2&ved=0CEcQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=the%20Germans%20trained%20pigeons%20to&f=false

Tom

I couldn't find anything in that reference about *Germans*
training pigeons to guide bombs or missiles, but on page 37
there is a mention of the B.F. Skinner program... he was
definitely not working for the Germans!

Best regards,


Bob Masta

DAQARTA v6.00
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter
Frequency Counter, FREE Signal Generator
Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI
Science with your sound card!

 

[Tom Biasi]

"Bob Masta" wrote in message
news:4d762dc3.1455121@news.eternal-september.org...

On Tue, 8 Mar 2011 06:14:12 -0500, "Tom Biasi"
<tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote:

"Bob Masta" wrote in message
news:4d74e322.1053728@news.eternal-september.org...

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:12:38 -0500, "Tom Biasi"
tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote:



"Bob Masta" wrote in message
news:4d739750.969846@news.eternal-september.org...

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 13:18:14 +0800, "Tom Potter"
tdp1001@yahoo.com> wrote:

snip

For example, during WWII,
the Germans trained pigeons to peck
at a"joystick" to center aerial pictures of places in London,
with the intension of using the pigeons as
control mechanisms for rocket bombs.

Do you have a citation for this? To the best of my
knowlege, the pigeon-as-guidance system was devised by B.F
Skinner in the USA. It was never deployed. (I can imagine
that no matter how well it might have worked, there would
have been a natural reluctance to entrust bomb targeting to
birds. Nobody in authority would have wanted to risk the
consequences to his career in event of a fiasco.)

Best regards,


Bob Masta


Just more folklore Bob, just like the RAF eating bilberries for better
night
vision.
If I'm wrong show me and I will apologize.


Not sure which you are referring to as folklore. I have
found nothing regarding a German program, so that doesn't
seem to have made the cut as folklore. The Skinner program
is well known. Since he was such a famous (infamous?)
scientist, whose later work in behaviorism made him the
target of every wing nut in Congress, I expect that this
part of his history has been pretty well scrutinized by now.

Best regards,


Bob Masta

It's mentioned quite a lot, here is one article.

http://books.google.com/books?id=C9NtR6t4NBYC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=the+Germans+trained+pigeons+to&source=bl&ots=8ZCSgOfaog&sig=8abOEgpjtKm4DlUUfNVhrUQQ-Ic&hl=en&ei=sg52Tb2XDsTJgQf11KHDBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&sqi=2&ved=0CEcQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=the%20Germans%20trained%20pigeons%20to&f=false

Tom

I couldn't find anything in that reference about *Germans*
training pigeons to guide bombs or missiles, but on page 37
there is a mention of the B.F. Skinner program... he was
definitely not working for the Germans!

Best regards,


Bob Masta
I'm not sure what part if any the Germans played in this but BF was
involved. The idea really existed but was not actually done in practice.

Tom

 

[Tom Potter]

"Bob Masta" <N0Spam@daqarta.com> wrote in message
news:4d739750.969846@news.eternal-september.org...

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 13:18:14 +0800, "Tom Potter"
tdp1001@yahoo.com> wrote:

snip

For example, during WWII,
the Germans trained pigeons to peck
at a"joystick" to center aerial pictures of places in London,
with the intension of using the pigeons as
control mechanisms for rocket bombs.

Do you have a citation for this? To the best of my
knowlege, the pigeon-as-guidance system was devised by B.F
Skinner in the USA. It was never deployed. (I can imagine
that no matter how well it might have worked, there would
have been a natural reluctance to entrust bomb targeting to
birds. Nobody in authority would have wanted to risk the
consequences to his career in event of a fiasco.)

Best regards,


Bob Masta

I have a distinct memory about
reading an article in a controls magazine about 1960,
about Germany's missile program
that covered control systems in the missiles,
magnetic amplifiers, the "pigeon control idea", etc.

but I could find no reference to Germany's
experiments with using pigeon's to control
the V1's and V2's,

so

I must have a glitch in my memory,

or

as the saying goes
"History is written by the victors."

and as I say

"History is re written by people motivate by race and religion."

And considering that in the minds of the masses
history is what is fed to them by the Mass Media,
and by Google hits,

and considering that Google has a race/religion bias
and "cooks the books"
and feeds you what they want you to see,
and hides what they don't want you to see,
and censors folks who express facts and opinions that
Google does not want the public exposed to,

I suggest that folks interested in facts,
should NEVER click on
"I'm feeling lucky."

Which is Google's way of determining
when they have a mind under their control.

--
Tom Potter
-----------------
http://www.prioritize.biz/
http://voices.yuku.com/forums/66
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com/siteindex.zhtml
http://xrl.in/63g4
http://www.tompotter.us
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com

 

[Sam Wormley]

On 3/9/11 1:17 AM, Tom Potter wrote:

I must have a glitch in my memory...

 

[rasterspace]

I doubt that Antarctic waters conform to this overall acidification;
tons of gravel-flour are scoured by the glaciers.

 

[Day Brown]

On 03/04/2011 06:44 PM, Bret Cahill wrote:

This particular output is already possible -- the units would be meter/
second^1/2 -- simply by taking the -1/2 order derivative of a
speedometer or by taking the +1/2 order derivative of the output of a
displacement transducer.

The question here is, can you build a transducer that outputs this
quantity directly?

A half-way-between-charge-and-current sensor may also be possible.

Supposing partial transducers turned out to be cheaper, had better
linearity or were enough smaller so that it was cost effective to
replace conventional sensors with even with the additional necessary
step of taking fractional derivatives or fractional anti-derivatives?

Like a watt meter?

 

[Tom Potter]

"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news9OdnYHwt7zLC-rQnZ2dnUVZ_h2dnZ2d@mchsi.com...

On 3/9/11 1:17 AM, Tom Potter wrote:

I must have a glitch in my memory...

Thanks to my pal Sammy for pointing out
that I am honest and forthright.

--
Tom Potter
-----------------
http://www.prioritize.biz/
http://voices.yuku.com/forums/66
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com/siteindex.zhtml
http://xrl.in/63g4
http://www.tompotter.us
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com

 

[Sam Wormley]

On 3/12/11 2:06 AM, Tom Potter wrote:

"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news9OdnYHwt7zLC-rQnZ2dnUVZ_h2dnZ2d@mchsi.com...
On 3/9/11 1:17 AM, Tom Potter wrote:

I must have a glitch in my memory...

Thanks to my pal Sammy for pointing out that I am honest and forthright.

I doubt that your Pappy would agree, Potter.

 

[Tom Potter]

"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:teidncGy759tHubQnZ2dnUVZ_hoAAAAA@mchsi.com...

On 3/12/11 2:06 AM, Tom Potter wrote:

"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news9OdnYHwt7zLC-rQnZ2dnUVZ_h2dnZ2d@mchsi.com...
On 3/9/11 1:17 AM, Tom Potter wrote:

I must have a glitch in my memory...

Thanks to my pal Sammy for pointing out that I am honest and forthright.

I doubt that your Pappy would agree, Potter.

It appear to me that my pal Sam Wormley
is suggesting that he has no "glitches" in his memory,

and I trust that he will explain why,
when I first posted many years ago
that General Relativity was a "Tower of Babel"

that he confused the ""Tower of Babel"
with the "Towers of Hanoi".

Was that a "glitch" in Sammy's memory,
or was he ignorant of the "Tower of Babel"?

Maybe Sammy will explain.

--
Tom Potter
-----------------
http://www.prioritize.biz/
http://voices.yuku.com/forums/66
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com/siteindex.zhtml
http://xrl.in/63g4
http://www.tompotter.us
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com