Traffic Light Spoofer for Cyclists

[Bret Cahill]

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.


Bret Cahill

 

[Jon Kirwan]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

(posted only to sci.electronics.basics, follow-ups set too)

It requires a lot of optical power along a particular angle, frequency
needs to be nail-on (fractions of Hz), and in most places cities and
counties (parishes, too) and states have made in some part of their
legal code made it against the rules of the road and, if caught, you
might face some fines or worse. A 9V battery is unlikely to handle
the power required to get enough of the right wavelengths into the
right angle of acceptance, anyway.

Jon

 

[BobW]

"Jon Kirwan" <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote in message
news:9anan41m4ni0o9cdihkraev8g4toc3alu7@4ax.com...

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

(posted only to sci.electronics.basics, follow-ups set too)

It requires a lot of optical power along a particular angle, frequency
needs to be nail-on (fractions of Hz), and in most places cities and
counties (parishes, too) and states have made in some part of their
legal code made it against the rules of the road and, if caught, you
might face some fines or worse. A 9V battery is unlikely to handle
the power required to get enough of the right wavelengths into the
right angle of acceptance, anyway.

Jon

Optical? Is the OP in the USA because I think that they're all inductive
loops in the ground, here in the States.

For motorcycles, there are devices sold that are just large magnets that
attach to the bottom of the frame. I haven't tried them, but if I run into a
sensor that doesn't pick me up then I call the local traffic division and
they're very cooperative. They just turn the sensitivity up to 11.

Bob
--
== All google group posts are automatically deleted due to spam ==

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.


Bret Cahill

Do you mean that your bike is ignored by magnetic-loop sensors?

I'd think that a reasonable bit of electronics and a ferrite-core loop
antenna could detect the big loop frequency and generate some signal
that would simulate a car. It would take a little research, but the
numbers don't look unreasonable to me; the loops are just metal
detectors, looking for a fairly small inductance change.

John

 

[Peter Rathmann]

On Jan 19, 9:00 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

But might be unnecessary if you have some cooperation from the local
DoT. I've found that just laying the bike down a little over the
sensor area of the road gets almost all the lights to trigger in our
area (northern Cal.) and the traffic authorities are pretty good about
coming out and adjusting the few that don't. This assumes you have
aluminum rims to trigger the induction loop detectors.

 

[Jon Kirwan]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:47:06 -0800, "BobW"
<nimby_GIMME_SOME_SPAM@roadrunner.com> wrote:

"Jon Kirwan" <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote in message
news:9anan41m4ni0o9cdihkraev8g4toc3alu7@4ax.com...
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

(posted only to sci.electronics.basics, follow-ups set too)

It requires a lot of optical power along a particular angle, frequency
needs to be nail-on (fractions of Hz), and in most places cities and
counties (parishes, too) and states have made in some part of their
legal code made it against the rules of the road and, if caught, you
might face some fines or worse. A 9V battery is unlikely to handle
the power required to get enough of the right wavelengths into the
right angle of acceptance, anyway.

Jon

Optical? Is the OP in the USA because I think that they're all inductive
loops in the ground, here in the States.

For motorcycles, there are devices sold that are just large magnets that
attach to the bottom of the frame. I haven't tried them, but if I run into a
sensor that doesn't pick me up then I call the local traffic division and
they're very cooperative. They just turn the sensitivity up to 11.

Perhaps _I_ may have misunderstood.

What I was thinking about was the emergency vehicle access to the
light system, which can be used to force a change. The OP (whom we
all know) wrote "spoofer that would trick the intersection into
changing the light" and interpreted that as the devices used by
emergency vehicles.

I read the OP one way, you another. Now we just need to hear from the
OP about it.

Jon

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2009-01-20, Peter Rathmann <prathmann@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jan 19, 9:00 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

But might be unnecessary if you have some cooperation from the local
DoT. I've found that just laying the bike down a little over the
sensor area of the road gets almost all the lights to trigger in our
area (northern Cal.) and the traffic authorities are pretty good about
coming out and adjusting the few that don't. This assumes you have
aluminum rims to trigger the induction loop detectors.

I have found that just putting the front wheel on the cut line
where the sensor loop is installed is enough.

unfortunately motor cycles have thicker tyres smaller wheels and are
harder lie down and pick up.

OTOH Bret says 9v (not 6V or 12V) so chances are he's using leg-power
and not a motor.

 

[BobW]

"Jon Kirwan" <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote in message
news:le1bn4dtifpuud7qhdvsc5pfrjpfi0opud@4ax.com...

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:47:06 -0800, "BobW"
nimby_GIMME_SOME_SPAM@roadrunner.com> wrote:


"Jon Kirwan" <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote in message
news:9anan41m4ni0o9cdihkraev8g4toc3alu7@4ax.com...
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

(posted only to sci.electronics.basics, follow-ups set too)

It requires a lot of optical power along a particular angle, frequency
needs to be nail-on (fractions of Hz), and in most places cities and
counties (parishes, too) and states have made in some part of their
legal code made it against the rules of the road and, if caught, you
might face some fines or worse. A 9V battery is unlikely to handle
the power required to get enough of the right wavelengths into the
right angle of acceptance, anyway.

Jon

Optical? Is the OP in the USA because I think that they're all inductive
loops in the ground, here in the States.

For motorcycles, there are devices sold that are just large magnets that
attach to the bottom of the frame. I haven't tried them, but if I run into
a
sensor that doesn't pick me up then I call the local traffic division and
they're very cooperative. They just turn the sensitivity up to 11.

Perhaps _I_ may have misunderstood.

What I was thinking about was the emergency vehicle access to the
light system, which can be used to force a change. The OP (whom we
all know) wrote "spoofer that would trick the intersection into
changing the light" and interpreted that as the devices used by
emergency vehicles.

I read the OP one way, you another. Now we just need to hear from the
OP about it.

Jon

Ahhhh. After doing a little research, I see that there is an infrared system
that allows emergency vehicles to preempt the traffic light state.

This system is for emergency vehicles and not for bicycles. I can only hope
that if this (or any) bicyclist decides to use such a "spoofer" that he/she
gets run over by a large car. This will help with the
too-many-sociopaths-alive problem.

Bob
--
== All google group posts are automatically deleted due to spam ==

 

[Alex Colvin]

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

See
<http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/remote-controls-traffic-lights>.

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

See also <http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2005/08/68507>.
--
mac the naďf

 

[Rich Grise]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to improve
the inductive coupling.

A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.

If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be sure
you don't get caught.

Have Fun!
Rich

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2009-01-20, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2009-01-20, Peter Rathmann <prathmann@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jan 19, 9:00 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

But might be unnecessary if you have some cooperation from the local
DoT. I've found that just laying the bike down a little over the
sensor area of the road gets almost all the lights to trigger in our
area (northern Cal.) and the traffic authorities are pretty good about
coming out and adjusting the few that don't. This assumes you have
aluminum rims to trigger the induction loop detectors.

I have found that just putting the front wheel on the cut line
where the sensor loop is installed is enough.

unfortunately motor cycles have thicker tyres smaller wheels and are
harder lie down and pick up.

OTOH Bret says 9v (not 6V or 12V) so chances are he's using leg-power
and not a motor.

OTOH I could har simply tead the subject line!
"cyclists" generallt excludes motorcyclists.
D'oh.

 

[Jon Kirwan]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:16:44 +0000 (UTC), Alex Colvin
<alexc@TheWorld.com> wrote:

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!


See
http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/remote-controls-traffic-lights>.

The article says, "Did the vendor not stop to think about the
potential for abuse? Did they think that nobody would ever figure out
how to abuse the system?" But the designers designed these some time
ago and did quite a bit already to flummox would-be abusers. (What
some manufacturers failed to do was avoid publishing their schematics,
though -- so people did get access to the details, if they bothered to
look.) There is a narrow band optical filter which allows certain
wavelengths in; there is an acceptance angle which limits the angle at
which the light is accepted; there is a precise frequency (think small
numbers of milliHertz narrow-band set somewhere between 10 and 20
Hertz reprate) allowed by the electronics. One needs to know the
precise frequencies (I know of two of them), how to pump out enough IR
in the right band in a way that folks around you don't notice (not so
easy without flash-lamps, which make things pretty obvious if you use
them but which are fine with emergency vehicles), etc. I think other
means, too, were also considered and were disposed of based on the
application requirements at the time.

Part of the problem is that times change (high power IR LEDs, for
example, with narrower dispersion angles and fancy microcontrollers
that are cheap, accurate, and everywhere) and their documentation did
get lose into the public view so that the labor attempting to find the
right Hz was eliminated for some.

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

See also <http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2005/08/68507>.

Yeah, that was an expected response, I suppose, that I wasn't aware
of.

Jon

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

"Rich Grise" <rich@example.net> wrote in message
newsan.2009.01.20.18.37.05.434593@example.net...

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to improve
the inductive coupling.

A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.

If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be sure
you don't get caught.

I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it turned
lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
emergency vehicle, and the worst that an illegal strobe could do would be
to disrupt traffic and annoy people.

Paul

 

[Peter Rathmann]

On Jan 20, 3:58 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote:

"Rich Grise" <r...@example.net> wrote in message

newsan.2009.01.20.18.37.05.434593@example.net...



On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to improve
the inductive coupling.

A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.

If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be sure
you don't get caught.

I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it turned
lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
emergency vehicle, and the worst that an illegal strobe could do would be
to disrupt traffic and annoy people.

No, the worst situation under that system is that the legal strobe on
the emergency vehicle fails to trigger the signal. Then the emergency
vehicle goes barreling through the red and right into the cross
traffic that still has a green. Better to have things so that even if
parts fail they tend to do so in ways that are still fairly safe.

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

"Peter Rathmann" <prathmann@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:460df033-c465-4bdf-b489-9bc635807437@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 20, 3:58 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote:

"Rich Grise" <r...@example.net> wrote in message

newsan.2009.01.20.18.37.05.434593@example.net...



On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to
improve
the inductive coupling.

A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.

If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be
sure
you don't get caught.

I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it
turned
lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
emergency vehicle, and the worst that an illegal strobe could do would be
to disrupt traffic and annoy people.

No, the worst situation under that system is that the legal strobe on
the emergency vehicle fails to trigger the signal. Then the emergency
vehicle goes barreling through the red and right into the cross
traffic that still has a green. Better to have things so that even if
parts fail they tend to do so in ways that are still fairly safe.

Most traffic lights are set to fail-safe as flashing red, which at least
requires all vehicles to stop before proceeding. Emergency vehicles should
never just barrel through an intersection with the assumption that the
lights are properly set, and it should be easy enough to verify that the
lights in the cross direction are indeed also red. One fail-safe indicator
would be to make the lights flash when the emergency condition is set.
Otherwise there could be indicators on the sides of traffic lights to
indicate their color.

Paul

 

[SMS]

Paul E. Schoen wrote:

"Rich Grise" <rich@example.net> wrote in message
newsan.2009.01.20.18.37.05.434593@example.net...
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.
I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to improve
the inductive coupling.

A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.

If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be sure
you don't get caught.

I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it turned
lights red in all directions.

The sensor picks up the strobe, the strobe doesn't do anything by
itself. The controller can be programmed to do whatever the traffic
engineer wants, including "all-red" which would at least eliminate the
incentive to have an illegal strobe.

It's highly unlikely that they would ever catch you with an illegal
strobe, unless its use caused an accident.

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <99742853-f7a3-46db-a22f-d4fa04f4344a@a26g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Bret Cahill <BretCahill@peoplepc.com> writes:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

With the sensor loops here in Vancouver BC, positioning over them
is important to getting some of them them to trip. We've got 4
kinds of loops, or rather, pavement cuts over the loops -- circular,
diamond, rectangular, and double-rectangles. With the former three,
positioning one's self & bike over the right half and maybe leaning
your bike a little gets them to trip. With the latter
(double-rectangle) type, just position yourself over the backbone/
centre cut.

If that doesn't work, you can share the left turn lane and invite
the driver behind you to come up and stop their car over the sensor.
The drivers are grateful & appreciative that you're not holding them
back, and everybody (including you) gets to go. If there's no
driver behind you and the sensor doesn't trip the traffic light,
just treat the intersection as a 4-way after waiting out what
should have been one normal light cycle. Or just go, if there's
nobody around to be adversely affected by your traffic movements,
and no traffic cops lurking behind a nearby billboard or something,
just itching to issue a ticket to somebody.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

 

[Peter Rathmann]

On Jan 20, 7:26 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote:

"Peter Rathmann" <prathm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:460df033-c465-4bdf-b489-9bc635807437@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 20, 3:58 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote:



"Rich Grise" <r...@example.net> wrote in message

newsan.2009.01.20.18.37.05.434593@example.net...

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation..

I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to
improve
the inductive coupling.

A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.

If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be
sure
you don't get caught.

I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it
turned
lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
emergency vehicle, and the worst that an illegal strobe could do would be
to disrupt traffic and annoy people.

  No, the worst situation under that system is that the legal strobe on
  the emergency vehicle fails to trigger the signal.  Then the emergency
  vehicle goes barreling through the red and right into the cross
  traffic that still has a green.  Better to have things so that even if
  parts fail they tend to do so in ways that are still fairly safe.

Most traffic lights are set to fail-safe as flashing red, which at least
requires all vehicles to stop before proceeding. Emergency vehicles should
never just barrel through an intersection with the assumption that the
lights are properly set, and it should be easy enough to verify that the
lights in the cross direction are indeed also red. One fail-safe indicator
would be to make the lights flash when the emergency condition is set.
Otherwise there could be indicators on the sides of traffic lights to
indicate their color.

Still strikes me that the current system where the emergency vehicle
driver sees a clear green traffic light is safer than one where he has
to check for secondary indicators for the cross traffic direction. And
flashing red for cross traffic is not as safe since drivers in that
direction may well see that other traffic is stopping and start to
cross after a momentary stop without noticing the emergency vehicle
maneuvering past the stopped vehicles. It's also better for the
emergency driver if the vehicles in front of him have a green so they
can maneuver out of his way.

If illegal strobes ever become a significant problem it seems to me
that can be remedied by stiff penalties combined with cameras to
record the plate number of any vehicle that sends out a strobe signal.
But don't decrease the safety of the current system for letting
emergency vehicles have a green signal while the other directions have
a solid red.

 

Bretski,
Back when I used to ride on the road I used to get stuck at a certain
intersection...I found the following on Instructables.com, I never got
around to trying it:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Traffic-Light-Trigger-for-your-Bike/

ABS-ski

 

[Tom Sherman]

Tom Keats wrote:

In article <99742853-f7a3-46db-a22f-d4fa04f4344a@a26g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Bret Cahill <BretCahill@peoplepc.com> writes:
I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

With the sensor loops here in Vancouver BC, positioning over them
is important to getting some of them them to trip. We've got 4
kinds of loops, or rather, pavement cuts over the loops -- circular,
diamond, rectangular, and double-rectangles. With the former three,
positioning one's self & bike over the right half and maybe leaning
your bike a little gets them to trip. With the latter
(double-rectangle) type, just position yourself over the backbone/
centre cut.

If that doesn't work, you can share the left turn lane and invite
the driver behind you to come up and stop their car over the sensor.
The drivers are grateful & appreciative that you're not holding them
back, and everybody (including you) gets to go. If there's no
driver behind you and the sensor doesn't trip the traffic light,
just treat the intersection as a 4-way after waiting out what
should have been one normal light cycle. Or just go, if there's
nobody around to be adversely affected by your traffic movements,
and no traffic cops lurking behind a nearby billboard or something,
just itching to issue a ticket to somebody.

If your bicycle will not trigger a green light, the signal can be

considered defective, and you have the legal right (in the US) to
proceed as long as you yield to cross traffic.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll