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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-28/boeing-s-737-max-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers
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B
bitrex
Guest
On 6/29/19 3:09 PM, blocher@columbus.rr.com wrote:
"It remains the mystery at the heart of Boeing Co.âs 737 Max crisis: how
a company renowned for meticulous design made seemingly basic software
mistakes leading to a pair of deadly crashes."
and then like 10 paragraphs down:
"Boeing said the company did not rely on engineers from HCL and Cyient
for the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, which has been
linked to the Lion Air crash last October and the Ethiopian Airlines
disaster in March."
mystery solved I guess, these were in-house dickheaded decisions made by
white male US-based engineers, most likely.
"The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes
grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new
flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced
engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs."
they act like a corporation laying employees off and trying their
hardest to cut costs is something unusual to do for a for-profit
corporation. When are for-profit corporations _not_ laying people off
and trying to cut costs? as if cost-cutting effort only happens at
special times like Christmas. bloomberp is bernie sanders now I guess
Of course everyone involved on the US side would like to blame the
filthy shithole countries for SOMETHING surely but it don't look like it
happening, this time. hundreds of people dead, engineers bitchin' "but
what about us? we were laid off! we're the _real_ victims here" sounds
typical lol
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-28/boeing-s-737-max-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers
"It remains the mystery at the heart of Boeing Co.âs 737 Max crisis: how
a company renowned for meticulous design made seemingly basic software
mistakes leading to a pair of deadly crashes."
and then like 10 paragraphs down:
"Boeing said the company did not rely on engineers from HCL and Cyient
for the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, which has been
linked to the Lion Air crash last October and the Ethiopian Airlines
disaster in March."
mystery solved I guess, these were in-house dickheaded decisions made by
white male US-based engineers, most likely.
"The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes
grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new
flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced
engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs."
they act like a corporation laying employees off and trying their
hardest to cut costs is something unusual to do for a for-profit
corporation. When are for-profit corporations _not_ laying people off
and trying to cut costs? as if cost-cutting effort only happens at
special times like Christmas. bloomberp is bernie sanders now I guess
Of course everyone involved on the US side would like to blame the
filthy shithole countries for SOMETHING surely but it don't look like it
happening, this time. hundreds of people dead, engineers bitchin' "but
what about us? we were laid off! we're the _real_ victims here" sounds
typical lol
B
bitrex
Guest
On 6/29/19 4:23 PM, bitrex wrote:
Also the popular polite way of saying "You're pushing 40 and you are
just too damn old to cut it in tech."
meanwhile I too have been laid off and turned down for jobs for reasons
that sometimes more-or-less translate to a polite version of: "You are
an American and we'll have to pay you too much." welcome to 21st century
capitalism, bitches. Suck it up
Also the popular polite way of saying "You're pushing 40 and you are
just too damn old to cut it in tech."
B
bitrex
Guest
On 6/29/19 3:58 PM, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote:
US engineers are like "it wasn't me"
US management is like "it wasn't me"
Indian engineers are like "it wasn't me"
Indian management is like "it wasn't me"
The surveys are unanimous, you see, when 110% of respondents agree, "it
wasn't me"
Who designed the system, and why did they design it that way. Somebody
or somebodies did. That's what people really want to hear about I think.
not existential speculation about a certain type of deleterious
corporate culture that may or may not actually exist, or the pros and
cons of outsourcing likely irrelevant design tasks. It's all premature.
if it were one of my relatives that were killed I would not be thinking
existential questions like "how a company renowned for meticulous design
made seemingly basic software mistakes leading to a pair of deadly
crashes?" I would be thinking "I want their NAMES!"
meanwhile I too have been laid off and turned down for jobs for reasons
that sometimes more-or-less translate to a polite version of: "You are
an American and we'll have to pay you too much." welcome to 21st century
capitalism, bitches. Suck it up
The point that resonates with me in the article is that by outsourcing SW the inside team manages I\O documents but there is no inside team left to really design and evolve and adjust the SW in an environment of debate and discussion. This environment of the brightest people in your org constantly challenging one another is what i think gets lost and by the sound of the article BA management was clear they did not want that type of engineer around
US engineers are like "it wasn't me"
US management is like "it wasn't me"
Indian engineers are like "it wasn't me"
Indian management is like "it wasn't me"
The surveys are unanimous, you see, when 110% of respondents agree, "it
wasn't me"
Who designed the system, and why did they design it that way. Somebody
or somebodies did. That's what people really want to hear about I think.
not existential speculation about a certain type of deleterious
corporate culture that may or may not actually exist, or the pros and
cons of outsourcing likely irrelevant design tasks. It's all premature.
if it were one of my relatives that were killed I would not be thinking
existential questions like "how a company renowned for meticulous design
made seemingly basic software mistakes leading to a pair of deadly
crashes?" I would be thinking "I want their NAMES!"
meanwhile I too have been laid off and turned down for jobs for reasons
that sometimes more-or-less translate to a polite version of: "You are
an American and we'll have to pay you too much." welcome to 21st century
capitalism, bitches. Suck it up
Guest
The point that resonates with me in the article is that by outsourcing SW the inside team manages I\O documents but there is no inside team left to really design and evolve and adjust the SW in an environment of debate and discussion. This environment of the brightest people in your org constantly challenging one another is what i think gets lost and by the sound of the article BA management was clear they did not want that type of engineer around
B
bitrex
Guest
On 6/29/19 3:36 PM, bitrex wrote:
er excuse me, redacted. I mean...the fucking fairy godmother did it.
On 6/29/19 3:09 PM, blocher@columbus.rr.com wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-28/boeing-s-737-max-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers
"It remains the mystery at the heart of Boeing Co.âs 737 Max crisis: how
a company renowned for meticulous design made seemingly basic software
mistakes leading to a pair of deadly crashes."
and then like 10 paragraphs down:
"Boeing said the company did not rely on engineers from HCL and Cyient
for the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, which has been
linked to the Lion Air crash last October and the Ethiopian Airlines
disaster in March."
mystery solved I guess, these were in-house dickheaded decisions made by
white male US-based engineers, most likely.
er excuse me, redacted. I mean...the fucking fairy godmother did it.
B
bitrex
Guest
On 6/29/19 4:48 PM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
I do more software than hardware currently and I feel I'm smart enough
to recognize they're sometimes not wrong. There's more work available
there but my skills are more fungible. There's a lot of talented 20s and
early 30s out there, they're not all skript-kiddies and Arduino monkeys
not by a long shot. If that's all you encounter then you're rolling with
the wrong "kids."
A lot of the 20-something CS grads are sharp as tacks and their advice
has made me plenty $$$ by dragging thought process out of the 90s when
it's appropriate.
On Saturday, 29 June 2019 21:32:22 UTC+1, bitrex wrote:
On 6/29/19 4:23 PM, bitrex wrote:
meanwhile I too have been laid off and turned down for jobs for reasons
that sometimes more-or-less translate to a polite version of: "You are
an American and we'll have to pay you too much." welcome to 21st century
capitalism, bitches. Suck it up
Also the popular polite way of saying "You're pushing 40 and you are
just too damn old to cut it in tech."
it's a fool that says that. You'll find a lot more of this skill over 40 than under.
NT
I do more software than hardware currently and I feel I'm smart enough
to recognize they're sometimes not wrong. There's more work available
there but my skills are more fungible. There's a lot of talented 20s and
early 30s out there, they're not all skript-kiddies and Arduino monkeys
not by a long shot. If that's all you encounter then you're rolling with
the wrong "kids."
A lot of the 20-something CS grads are sharp as tacks and their advice
has made me plenty $$$ by dragging thought process out of the 90s when
it's appropriate.
B
bitrex
Guest
On 6/29/19 4:52 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
I'm trying to remember the chortler about ISO-9000, something like "our
processes are all screwed to hell, but the screweyness is well-
documented" or something like that.
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 16:23:50 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 6/29/19 3:58 PM, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote:
The point that resonates with me in the article is that by outsourcing SW the inside team manages I\O documents but there is no inside team left to really design and evolve and adjust the SW in an environment of debate and discussion. This environment of the brightest people in your org constantly challenging one another is what i think gets lost and by the sound of the article BA management was clear they did not want that type of engineer around
US engineers are like "it wasn't me"
US management is like "it wasn't me"
Indian engineers are like "it wasn't me"
Indian management is like "it wasn't me"
The surveys are unanimous, you see, when 110% of respondents agree, "it
wasn't me"
Isn't the 'quality' system (like ISO-9000) supposed to document each
step taken ? Just dig through the documentation to find out who is the
culprit.
The quality system may actually improve quality when you can't say
'it wasn't me' and thus you have to be more careful with your work.
I'm trying to remember the chortler about ISO-9000, something like "our
processes are all screwed to hell, but the screweyness is well-
documented" or something like that.
B
Bill Sloman
Guest
On Saturday, June 29, 2019 at 10:48:15 PM UTC+2, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
Of course what NT means by "skill" is what most people would call idiosyncratic foolishness.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
On Saturday, 29 June 2019 21:32:22 UTC+1, bitrex wrote:
On 6/29/19 4:23 PM, bitrex wrote:
meanwhile I too have been laid off and turned down for jobs for reasons
that sometimes more-or-less translate to a polite version of: "You are
an American and we'll have to pay you too much." welcome to 21st century
capitalism, bitches. Suck it up
Also the popular polite way of saying "You're pushing 40 and you are
just too damn old to cut it in tech."
it's a fool that says that. You'll find a lot more of this skill over 40 than under.
NT
Of course what NT means by "skill" is what most people would call idiosyncratic foolishness.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Guest
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 16:23:50 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
Isn't the 'quality' system (like ISO-9000) supposed to document each
step taken ? Just dig through the documentation to find out who is the
culprit.
The quality system may actually improve quality when you can't say
'it wasn't me' and thus you have to be more careful with your work.
On 6/29/19 3:58 PM, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote:
The point that resonates with me in the article is that by outsourcing SW the inside team manages I\O documents but there is no inside team left to really design and evolve and adjust the SW in an environment of debate and discussion. This environment of the brightest people in your org constantly challenging one another is what i think gets lost and by the sound of the article BA management was clear they did not want that type of engineer around
US engineers are like "it wasn't me"
US management is like "it wasn't me"
Indian engineers are like "it wasn't me"
Indian management is like "it wasn't me"
The surveys are unanimous, you see, when 110% of respondents agree, "it
wasn't me"
Isn't the 'quality' system (like ISO-9000) supposed to document each
step taken ? Just dig through the documentation to find out who is the
culprit.
The quality system may actually improve quality when you can't say
'it wasn't me' and thus you have to be more careful with your work.
Guest
On Saturday, 29 June 2019 21:32:22 UTC+1, bitrex wrote:
it's a fool that says that. You'll find a lot more of this skill over 40 than under.
NT
On 6/29/19 4:23 PM, bitrex wrote:
meanwhile I too have been laid off and turned down for jobs for reasons
that sometimes more-or-less translate to a polite version of: "You are
an American and we'll have to pay you too much." welcome to 21st century
capitalism, bitches. Suck it up
Also the popular polite way of saying "You're pushing 40 and you are
just too damn old to cut it in tech."
it's a fool that says that. You'll find a lot more of this skill over 40 than under.
NT
B
bitrex
Guest
On 6/29/19 4:55 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
let's be honest the system we're talking about @ Boeing was far more
likely to have been designed by greybeards, who slipped, than kiddos.
Not the Indians, not the skript-kiddiez, this smells like old-fashioned
experience-driven US-made overconfident slippage. I may be wrong but
that's my intuition. It happens, sooner or later.
On Saturday, June 29, 2019 at 10:48:15 PM UTC+2, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, 29 June 2019 21:32:22 UTC+1, bitrex wrote:
On 6/29/19 4:23 PM, bitrex wrote:
meanwhile I too have been laid off and turned down for jobs for reasons
that sometimes more-or-less translate to a polite version of: "You are
an American and we'll have to pay you too much." welcome to 21st century
capitalism, bitches. Suck it up
Also the popular polite way of saying "You're pushing 40 and you are
just too damn old to cut it in tech."
it's a fool that says that. You'll find a lot more of this skill over 40 than under.
NT
Of course what NT means by "skill" is what most people would call idiosyncratic foolishness.
let's be honest the system we're talking about @ Boeing was far more
likely to have been designed by greybeards, who slipped, than kiddos.
Not the Indians, not the skript-kiddiez, this smells like old-fashioned
experience-driven US-made overconfident slippage. I may be wrong but
that's my intuition. It happens, sooner or later.
Guest
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 16:32:17 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
This may in fact be true, since older engineers have grown up with
mechanical control systems and it may be a two large step to start
designing fly-by-wire systems.
Planes last usually 20-30 years (unless they drop out of the sky), so
persons are still needed who understand old mechanical/hydraulic
systems.
It would be hard to get young engineers to specialize to old and soon
obsolete system, so at least some old engineers are still required.
On 6/29/19 4:23 PM, bitrex wrote:
meanwhile I too have been laid off and turned down for jobs for reasons
that sometimes more-or-less translate to a polite version of: "You are
an American and we'll have to pay you too much." welcome to 21st century
capitalism, bitches. Suck it up
Also the popular polite way of saying "You're pushing 40 and you are
just too damn old to cut it in tech."
This may in fact be true, since older engineers have grown up with
mechanical control systems and it may be a two large step to start
designing fly-by-wire systems.
Planes last usually 20-30 years (unless they drop out of the sky), so
persons are still needed who understand old mechanical/hydraulic
systems.
It would be hard to get young engineers to specialize to old and soon
obsolete system, so at least some old engineers are still required.
B
bitrex
Guest
On 6/29/19 4:55 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
Here are some real deal facts that we know that are interesting, though,
a private company called Comprehensive Health Services is billing
taxpayers $750/day for every detained migrant child.
CHS is a subsidiary of Caliburn International. Who is the equity
investment firm for Caliburn? DC Capital Partners. How much of each of
that $750 goes to paying returns to DC Capital Partners? About most of
it, I'd figure. Who's on the advisory board of DC Capital Partners?
Former Trump CoS John Kelly, as of last month. Also:
Richard L. Armitage, former U.S. deputy secretary of state; Michael
Corbin; former ambassador to the United Arab Emirates; Michael V.
Hayden, former director of the Central Intelligence Agency and of the
National Security Agency; Donald M. Kerr Jr., former deputy director of
science and technology at the CIA; Anthony C. Zinni, former
commander-in-chief of the U.S. Central Command and former U.S. Envoy to
the Middle East; and Stephen F. Loftus, former director of the Office of
the Budget for the United States Navy.
This "detention center" business is a money-making swindle and the swamp
is real deep n dirty
On Saturday, June 29, 2019 at 10:48:15 PM UTC+2, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, 29 June 2019 21:32:22 UTC+1, bitrex wrote:
On 6/29/19 4:23 PM, bitrex wrote:
meanwhile I too have been laid off and turned down for jobs for reasons
that sometimes more-or-less translate to a polite version of: "You are
an American and we'll have to pay you too much." welcome to 21st century
capitalism, bitches. Suck it up
Also the popular polite way of saying "You're pushing 40 and you are
just too damn old to cut it in tech."
it's a fool that says that. You'll find a lot more of this skill over 40 than under.
NT
Of course what NT means by "skill" is what most people would call idiosyncratic foolishness.
Here are some real deal facts that we know that are interesting, though,
a private company called Comprehensive Health Services is billing
taxpayers $750/day for every detained migrant child.
CHS is a subsidiary of Caliburn International. Who is the equity
investment firm for Caliburn? DC Capital Partners. How much of each of
that $750 goes to paying returns to DC Capital Partners? About most of
it, I'd figure. Who's on the advisory board of DC Capital Partners?
Former Trump CoS John Kelly, as of last month. Also:
Richard L. Armitage, former U.S. deputy secretary of state; Michael
Corbin; former ambassador to the United Arab Emirates; Michael V.
Hayden, former director of the Central Intelligence Agency and of the
National Security Agency; Donald M. Kerr Jr., former deputy director of
science and technology at the CIA; Anthony C. Zinni, former
commander-in-chief of the U.S. Central Command and former U.S. Envoy to
the Middle East; and Stephen F. Loftus, former director of the Office of
the Budget for the United States Navy.
This "detention center" business is a money-making swindle and the swamp
is real deep n dirty
M
Martin Riddle
Guest
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 23:52:05 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
There is a IEC standard, IEC62304 for software developemnt. It's based
on Risk Managemnt.
Cheers
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 16:23:50 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 6/29/19 3:58 PM, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote:
The point that resonates with me in the article is that by outsourcing SW the inside team manages I\O documents but there is no inside team left to really design and evolve and adjust the SW in an environment of debate and discussion. This environment of the brightest people in your org constantly challenging one another is what i think gets lost and by the sound of the article BA management was clear they did not want that type of engineer around
US engineers are like "it wasn't me"
US management is like "it wasn't me"
Indian engineers are like "it wasn't me"
Indian management is like "it wasn't me"
The surveys are unanimous, you see, when 110% of respondents agree, "it
wasn't me"
Isn't the 'quality' system (like ISO-9000) supposed to document each
step taken ? Just dig through the documentation to find out who is the
culprit.
The quality system may actually improve quality when you can't say
'it wasn't me' and thus you have to be more careful with your work.
There is a IEC standard, IEC62304 for software developemnt. It's based
on Risk Managemnt.
Cheers
B
bitrex
Guest
On 6/29/19 11:29 PM, Martin Riddle wrote:
There is also a set of pragmatic, boots-on-the-ground standards for
mission-critical code with C or C++:
<https://wiki.sei.cmu.edu/confluence/display/c>
I don't know what language or languages Boeing uses for its flight
control software, I know a lot of aerospace stuff is written in C and
C++, even mission-critical code, same as anything else. I don't think
it's all done in Ada or JOVIAL, anymore
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 23:52:05 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 16:23:50 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 6/29/19 3:58 PM, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote:
The point that resonates with me in the article is that by outsourcing SW the inside team manages I\O documents but there is no inside team left to really design and evolve and adjust the SW in an environment of debate and discussion. This environment of the brightest people in your org constantly challenging one another is what i think gets lost and by the sound of the article BA management was clear they did not want that type of engineer around
US engineers are like "it wasn't me"
US management is like "it wasn't me"
Indian engineers are like "it wasn't me"
Indian management is like "it wasn't me"
The surveys are unanimous, you see, when 110% of respondents agree, "it
wasn't me"
Isn't the 'quality' system (like ISO-9000) supposed to document each
step taken ? Just dig through the documentation to find out who is the
culprit.
The quality system may actually improve quality when you can't say
'it wasn't me' and thus you have to be more careful with your work.
There is a IEC standard, IEC62304 for software developemnt. It's based
on Risk Managemnt.
Cheers
There is also a set of pragmatic, boots-on-the-ground standards for
mission-critical code with C or C++:
<https://wiki.sei.cmu.edu/confluence/display/c>
I don't know what language or languages Boeing uses for its flight
control software, I know a lot of aerospace stuff is written in C and
C++, even mission-critical code, same as anything else. I don't think
it's all done in Ada or JOVIAL, anymore