The Inflation Reduction Act Will Reshape the Economy...

[rbowman]

On 08/21/2022 07:31 PM, bitrex wrote:

It is the left-libertarian position that there\'s not much point in
taxing the rich more when the govt. blows such a large percentage of it
it on weapons and military budgets like a drunken sailor, anyway.

Well, yeah, since left-libertarian is often a polite term for anarchism
and elimination of government is one of the ultimate goals. The problem
I have with that is what to do with the people who are not fit to live
in any society let alone one based on mutualism. I like Kropotkin but I
also think he was overly optimistic.

 

[rbowman]

On 08/21/2022 08:11 PM, bitrex wrote:

Buying a beater for pushing 10k and then looking at an expensive repair
not long after is an unpleasant gamble and many low-income people gamble
their jobs when they make it, reliable transportation is key to holding
down a job at the low end of the pay scale.

There is a used car lot that I pass frequently that is my barometer. 20
years ago their sign read \'no car over $1999\'. It\'s been repainted
several times and was \'over $10999\' the last time I looked.

 

[Flyguy]

On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 7:46:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:47:33 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 2:19:57 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:33:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Summary rundown of all the various provisions in the legislation that spur an innovative, clean, and lower energy economy. The government is really taking on a ginormous amount of work to implement this behemoth. And yes, that\'s a word:

https://blog.aee.net/as-industrial-policy-the-inflation-reduction-act-will-reshape-the-economy

\"Transformational\" is a synonym for destructive.
Destruction is one form of transformation. There are others, so it\'s not a synonym.
We can undo all that after the next couple election cycles. The
federal government always does more, when it should do less.

The consumer tax credits are pretty good- now you get one for even a used EV? Can\'t complain about that. Even bigger are all the residential efficiency improvement credits- conversion to total heat pump to eliminate gas and oil burning for heat- beefing up home insulation, windows and doors- all those things make a HUGE difference when 100 million installations are involved- and what works for heating obviously also works for cooling which will really be stressed in the near future. They should be giving a credit for buying Energy Star appliances too. The hard part will be all the brand new manufacturing base they\'re hoping for- that doesn\'t happen overnight. One semiconductor industry expert said it will be 15 years before the U.S. will have the semiconductor manufacturing capacity they\'re hoping for- mainly because U.S. has to start from scratch developing a workforce.

Not all EVs, Fred - look it up. And WHO pays for those \"free\" credits, anyway? It turns out to be middle-income taxpayers who can\'t afford EVs, that\'s who.
I wonder why Gnatguy thins that middle-income taxpayers couldn\'t afford EV\'s. Since they are cheaper to run, you\'d think that they couldn\'t afford not to buy them.

LOL! Hey Bozo, you have to BUY one first, you idiot! And that is going to mean an additional monthly payment pushing $1,000 - USD not those crappy OZ dollars! Middle income people CAN\'T AFFORD THAT, not after having to pay another $400-800 per month in increased living costs because of Lyin\' Biden\'s 9% inflation.

If beefing up insulation makes economic sense people will do it on their own w/o any credits.
It\'s a long term investment - spend the money now and reap the benefit later, like buying an electric car. Sadly, you have to find the money up-front to make the investment, and that takes an effort.
This also goes for home solar power systems. I analyzed the payback period for every state and found that it varied from 6 (Hawaii) to 23 (Wyoming) years depending upon:
1. The amount of solar energy received per year.
2. The cost of installing the system.
3. The cost of electricity in that state.
Gnatguy presumably did it back when solar cells costs twice what they do now, and still thinks that his antiquated calculations are still valid. We are about due for another tenfold scaling up in the manufacturing volume and the accompanying halving of the unit price.

Those costs are very recent, Bozo. So, no, they are RIGHT - go look it up and get back to us. Tell me, what does it cost to install a 6KW home solar system - TODAY?

Consequently, a lot of people are installing solar systems in Hawaii because of the short payback period. Incentives now are down to a 22% federal tax credit, which doesn\'t change the payback period a large amount. What was surprising was Alaska, where the payback is just 9 years because of the high cost of electric power.
Another thing about tax credits: only people that actually pay taxes can use them, so it doesn\'t help low-income people. So, poor people end up subsidizing rich people, which is definitely happening with EVs. Although poor people don\'t pay taxes, these subsidies (which require more borrowing) drive up inflation which hurts the poor disproportionately.

The tax credits are going to go away. Putting solar cells on your roof and a Tesla Power Wall into your house is much too good an investment for any government to bother subsidising it. The utility companies don\'t like buying domestic solar output, so it makes a lot more sense to put your excess output into a Power Wall and use it up yourself overnight. Eventually the utility companieswill buy access to domestic Power Walls, and use them to even out the load on the grid, but that\'s going to take a while.

As I already said (didn\'t you read it?) the credit in the US is currently 22%; eliminating it would add 1 to 2 years to the payback period. Battery backup MAY make sense to those that have variable power rates, but it isn\'t likely. A power wall will increase the system cost by 33 to 50%.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 3:17:35 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:

On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 7:46:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:47:33 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 2:19:57 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:33:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Summary rundown of all the various provisions in the legislation that spur an innovative, clean, and lower energy economy. The government is really taking on a ginormous amount of work to implement this behemoth. And yes, that\'s a word:

https://blog.aee.net/as-industrial-policy-the-inflation-reduction-act-will-reshape-the-economy

\"Transformational\" is a synonym for destructive.

Destruction is one form of transformation. There are others, so it\'s not a synonym.

We can undo all that after the next couple election cycles. The
federal government always does more, when it should do less.

The consumer tax credits are pretty good- now you get one for even a used EV? Can\'t complain about that. Even bigger are all the residential efficiency improvement credits- conversion to total heat pump to eliminate gas and oil burning for heat- beefing up home insulation, windows and doors- all those things make a HUGE difference when 100 million installations are involved- and what works for heating obviously also works for cooling which will really be stressed in the near future. They should be giving a credit for buying Energy Star appliances too. The hard part will be all the brand new manufacturing base they\'re hoping for- that doesn\'t happen overnight. One semiconductor industry expert said it will be 15 years before the U.S. will have the semiconductor manufacturing capacity they\'re hoping for- mainly because U.S. has to start from scratch developing a workforce.

Not all EVs, Fred - look it up. And WHO pays for those \"free\" credits, anyway? It turns out to be middle-income taxpayers who can\'t afford EVs, that\'s who.

I wonder why Gnatguy thinks that middle-income taxpayers couldn\'t afford EV\'s. Since they are cheaper to run, you\'d think that they couldn\'t afford not to buy them.

LOL! Hey, you have to BUY one first! And that is going to mean an additional monthly payment pushing $1,000 - USD not those crappy OZ dollars! Middle income people CAN\'T AFFORD THAT, not after having to pay another $400-800 per month in increased living costs because of Joe Biden\'s 9% inflation.

Gnatguy seems to think that people will take his demented claims seriously. The 9% inflation seems to have more to do with Putin\'s invasion of the Ukraine and the consequent mess in the oil and gas market, but Gnatguy clearly wants to blame Biden, and mere facts won\'t get in his way.

If beefing up insulation makes economic sense people will do it on their own w/o any credits.

It\'s a long term investment - spend the money now and reap the benefit later, like buying an electric car. Sadly, you have to find the money up-front to make the investment, and that takes an effort.

This also goes for home solar power systems. I analyzed the payback period for every state and found that it varied from 6 (Hawaii) to 23 (Wyoming) years depending upon:
1. The amount of solar energy received per year.
2. The cost of installing the system.
3. The cost of electricity in that state.

Gnatguy presumably did it back when solar cells costs twice what they do now, and still thinks that his antiquated calculations are still valid. We are about due for another tenfold scaling up in the manufacturing volume and the accompanying halving of the unit price.

Those costs are very recent.

But no specific year.

> So, no, they are RIGHT - go look it up and get back to us.

Gnatguy expects to be taken seriously.

> Tell me, what does it cost to install a 6KW home solar system - TODAY?

Where? And what does the 6kW mean? Peak power or averaged over a typical day?

Consequently, a lot of people are installing solar systems in Hawaii because of the short payback period. Incentives now are down to a 22% federal tax credit, which doesn\'t change the payback period a large amount. What was surprising was Alaska, where the payback is just 9 years because of the high cost of electric power.

Another thing about tax credits: only people that actually pay taxes can use them, so it doesn\'t help low-income people. So, poor people end up subsidizing rich people, which is definitely happening with EVs. Although poor people don\'t pay taxes, these subsidies (which require more borrowing) drive up inflation which hurts the poor disproportionately.

The tax credits are going to go away. Putting solar cells on your roof and a Tesla Power Wall into your house is much too good an investment for any government to bother subsidising it. The utility companies don\'t like buying domestic solar output, so it makes a lot more sense to put your excess output into a Power Wall and use it up yourself overnight. Eventually the utility companies will buy access to domestic Power Walls, and use them to even out the load on the grid, but that\'s going to take a while.

As I already said (didn\'t you read it?) the credit in the US is currently 22%; eliminating it would add 1 to 2 years to the payback period.

Why would I pay any attention to what you claim? Post a link so we can see what you have misunderstood.

> Battery backup MAY make sense to those that have variable power rates, but it isn\'t likely. A power wall will increase the system cost by 33 to 50%..

Variable power rates don\'t come into it. The utility companies can\'t pay you as much for power as they charge you when they sell it to you (except as a short term come-in-sucker arrangement).

In the Australia market, power walls don\'t seem to be that expensive.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[bitrex]

On 8/22/2022 12:59 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/21/2022 07:31 PM, bitrex wrote:
It is the left-libertarian position that there\'s not much point in
taxing the rich more when the govt. blows such a large percentage of it
it on weapons and military budgets like a drunken sailor, anyway.

Well, yeah, since left-libertarian is often a polite term for anarchism
and elimination of government is one of the ultimate goals. The problem
I have with that is what to do with the people who are not fit to live
in any society let alone one based on mutualism. I like Kropotkin but I
also think he was overly optimistic.

Not so much an anarchist philosophy as pointing out to \"freedom-lovers\"
that the US of A hardly has any freedom-basics down. Government
regularly uses its power to declare wars of aggression by fiat, to
execute its own citizens, and now to force women to give birth. Free
country? These are powers exceeding some of the powers of the kings of old.

Not much point in pondering the elimination of government when if you
asked 100 random Americans which of those powers government should
definitely have probably 97 of them would answer yes to at least one,
seems like a DOA idea.

But every year military budgets go up due to new \"emerging threats\"
here, there, everywhere. Always someone new that hates us and some
amount of money that will supposedly prevent them from doing something
bad, just another couple billion please. One wonders at what point the
people will collectively throw up their hands and say look if everyone
hates us and wants to get at us we\'re probably doomed, there\'s not
enough money to keep up with the ever-growing list of \"threats.\"

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 9:07:44 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 1:24:51 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 10:52:08 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 12:25:41 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:00:31 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:47:33 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 2:19:57 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:33:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
snip
I don\'t have high hopes for residential solar, it looks like a ripoff to me. At today\'s prices you need to install $3,000 rooftop solar to power a coffeemaker- that\'s what I call ridiculous. I\'m not going to look up the link, but DoE did a detailed satellite based survey of every rooftop in America a few years back, and they determined less than 10% of residential housing is suitable for solar.
\"A few years back\" was before the Chinese started making cheap high yield solar cells in high volume. The economics are now a bit more attractive than they used to be.

You can view it that way, but a more reasonable descriptor is \"slightly less unattractive.\"
It seems to be pretty attractive in Australia.
There were a bunch of reasons for that like not enough roof area, wrong orientation to the sun, external shading from things like other structures and trees, or less than ideal weather conditions, maybe some more. Then there\'s the high density problems in urban areas- like no way does an apartment or townhouse building have the roof to power all the people living inside. Another drawback of solar panels, you pay for all that capacity whether you\'re using it or not, whereas for the grid feed, you only pay for what you use.

But the utility company is there in exactly the same way, even when you aren\'t using it, and it\'s the consumers who end up paying - via their utility bills - the interest on the capital invested .

The statistic I read was that the utility\'s cost per unit installed solar runs less than half the individual residential. The same goes for all their sources of power- the individual can\'t come close to their efficiency.
Half the cost of the electricity I buy pays for the cost of the distribution net work. If the solar cells are on your roof, and you use them to charge your own Tesla Power Wall or something like it, you don\'t have to pay the costs associated with distributing that chunk of power. The utility company will probably slug you harder to cover the cost of distributing the residual power you buy from time to time, but if you don\'t have to distribute your own power you save a lot because you don\'t have to pay for that
Google used to have a calculator that based on their satellite imagery analysis, local weather data, geographic location effects on insolation, local cost of power and reimbursement for excess generation, local cost of solar installations and payment plans, maybe a bunch of other stuff, would compute the 20 year net cost or savings of installed solar. Solar lost all the time at my lat / long- something like $1,000 annual.
Then solar cells got cheaper and marginally more productive.
I suspect that if more people paid more attention to much lower cost and longer lasting methods such as adequate insulation, they would see the same results. All solar is good for is the original intent of the technology which is getting power when you live in the middle of nowhere without a grid.
But the grid isn\'t free.
Most power companies use the \"cost avoidance\" method to determine how much if anything they will pay for your excess solar generation, and it\'s usually less than half the billing rate, much less. Those two aspect immediately disqualify solar from consideration- in my mind anyway, such as it is...

If you can afford rooftop solar , you probably ought to pay out a bit more for a Tesla Power Wall or the like and store you excess output overnight rather than selling it to the power company. It\'s becoming a popular option in Australia where the utility companies are getting to be very reluctant to buy any power from roof-top solar. Their grid wasn\'t designed to cope with the amount of power roof-top solar is delivering now that it has become popular.

You must have a lot of nuclear.
Australia doesn\'t have any nuclear power generation at all. We\'ve got just one high neutron flux nuclear reactor at Lucas Heights. I even interviewed for a job there to work on the electronics for their new neutron diffraction set-up, but didn\'t get it. Nuclear isn\'t much good for intermittent loads. Grid storage is a lot better, and fast start gas turbines do work, but they aren\'t cheap.
The power company definitely does not like making their loading unpredictable with that. They have some funny way of spec\'ing the powerwall capacity but I don\'t see it powering a 4kW central climate control through the night, and that\'s a small load. It\'s another typically very expensive Musk product.
It\'s still pays off better to power the central heating for half the night from the battery than it is to sell the same number of kilowatt hours back to the grid. The power companies may not like it, but they have to live with it.

I looked up that crummy little Powerwall thingamajig here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Powerwall#Powerwall_models
The biggest one is 13.5kWh. You do understand that at ten cents per kwh that is $1.35 daily or $41 per month, so at $8500 price that would be 210 months payback or 17 years. That\'s 7 years past warranty or 3 years past the 5,000 cycles. The later ones have this other 37.8Mwh warranty or 2800 total load dumps which is even less. Go ahead and scale all that with your per kwh rate. Things get even worse when you start looking at typical loading. It\'s a misrepresented worthless technology unless maybe you live in a tent.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 11:38:19 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 9:07:44 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 1:24:51 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 10:52:08 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 12:25:41 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:00:31 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:47:33 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 2:19:57 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:33:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

It\'s still pays off better to power the central heating for half the night from the battery than it is to sell the same number of kilowatt hours back to the grid. The power companies may not like it, but they have to live with it.
I looked up that crummy little Powerwall thingamajig here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Powerwall#Powerwall_models
The biggest one is 13.5kWh. You do understand that at ten cents per kwh that is $1.35 daily or $41 per month, so at $8500 price that would be 210 months payback or 17 years. That\'s 7 years past warranty or 3 years past the 5,000 cycles. The later ones have this other 37.8Mwh warranty or 2800 total load dumps which is even less. Go ahead and scale all that with your per kwh rate. Things get even worse when you start looking at typical loading. It\'s a misrepresented worthless technology unless maybe you live in a tent.

Or someplace where residential power is more expensive. It\'s about $A0.20 per kW.hr in NSW, Australia at the moment, or $US 0.14. Curiously, the Power Wall 2 is also cheaper here - it\'s only $A10,500 or $8,500 each if you buy two, and there is still a 26% government tax credit available so you actually have to pay even less.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Flyguy]

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 10:59:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 3:17:35 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 7:46:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:47:33 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 2:19:57 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:33:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Summary rundown of all the various provisions in the legislation that spur an innovative, clean, and lower energy economy. The government is really taking on a ginormous amount of work to implement this behemoth. And yes, that\'s a word:

https://blog.aee.net/as-industrial-policy-the-inflation-reduction-act-will-reshape-the-economy

\"Transformational\" is a synonym for destructive.

Destruction is one form of transformation. There are others, so it\'s not a synonym.

We can undo all that after the next couple election cycles. The
federal government always does more, when it should do less.

The consumer tax credits are pretty good- now you get one for even a used EV? Can\'t complain about that. Even bigger are all the residential efficiency improvement credits- conversion to total heat pump to eliminate gas and oil burning for heat- beefing up home insulation, windows and doors- all those things make a HUGE difference when 100 million installations are involved- and what works for heating obviously also works for cooling which will really be stressed in the near future. They should be giving a credit for buying Energy Star appliances too. The hard part will be all the brand new manufacturing base they\'re hoping for- that doesn\'t happen overnight. One semiconductor industry expert said it will be 15 years before the U.S. will have the semiconductor manufacturing capacity they\'re hoping for- mainly because U.S. has to start from scratch developing a workforce.

Not all EVs, Fred - look it up. And WHO pays for those \"free\" credits, anyway? It turns out to be middle-income taxpayers who can\'t afford EVs, that\'s who.

I wonder why Gnatguy thinks that middle-income taxpayers couldn\'t afford EV\'s. Since they are cheaper to run, you\'d think that they couldn\'t afford not to buy them.

LOL! Hey, you have to BUY one first! And that is going to mean an additional monthly payment pushing $1,000 - USD not those crappy OZ dollars! Middle income people CAN\'T AFFORD THAT, not after having to pay another $400-800 per month in increased living costs because of Joe Biden\'s 9% inflation.

Gnatguy seems to think that people will take his demented claims seriously. The 9% inflation seems to have more to do with Putin\'s invasion of the Ukraine and the consequent mess in the oil and gas market, but Gnatguy clearly wants to blame Biden, and mere facts won\'t get in his way.
If beefing up insulation makes economic sense people will do it on their own w/o any credits.

It\'s a long term investment - spend the money now and reap the benefit later, like buying an electric car. Sadly, you have to find the money up-front to make the investment, and that takes an effort.

This also goes for home solar power systems. I analyzed the payback period for every state and found that it varied from 6 (Hawaii) to 23 (Wyoming) years depending upon:
1. The amount of solar energy received per year.
2. The cost of installing the system.
3. The cost of electricity in that state.

Gnatguy presumably did it back when solar cells costs twice what they do now, and still thinks that his antiquated calculations are still valid. We are about due for another tenfold scaling up in the manufacturing volume and the accompanying halving of the unit price.

Those costs are very recent.

But no specific year.

Try 2022, idiot - is that RECENT ENOUGH?

So, no, they are RIGHT - go look it up and get back to us.
Gnatguy expects to be taken seriously.
Tell me, what does it cost to install a 6KW home solar system - TODAY?
Where? And what does the 6kW mean? Peak power or averaged over a typical day?

Do you fucking know what a watt is, Bozo? If not, look it up. Well, it is SIX THOUSAND of those! This is the STANDARD way solar systems are spec\'d - if you don\'t know that you are totally IGNORANT about their cost.

Consequently, a lot of people are installing solar systems in Hawaii because of the short payback period. Incentives now are down to a 22% federal tax credit, which doesn\'t change the payback period a large amount. What was surprising was Alaska, where the payback is just 9 years because of the high cost of electric power.

Another thing about tax credits: only people that actually pay taxes can use them, so it doesn\'t help low-income people. So, poor people end up subsidizing rich people, which is definitely happening with EVs. Although poor people don\'t pay taxes, these subsidies (which require more borrowing) drive up inflation which hurts the poor disproportionately.

The tax credits are going to go away. Putting solar cells on your roof and a Tesla Power Wall into your house is much too good an investment for any government to bother subsidising it. The utility companies don\'t like buying domestic solar output, so it makes a lot more sense to put your excess output into a Power Wall and use it up yourself overnight. Eventually the utility companies will buy access to domestic Power Walls, and use them to even out the load on the grid, but that\'s going to take a while.

As I already said (didn\'t you read it?) the credit in the US is currently 22%; eliminating it would add 1 to 2 years to the payback period.
Why would I pay any attention to what you claim? Post a link so we can see what you have misunderstood.

It is readily available to even an 8-year-old.

Battery backup MAY make sense to those that have variable power rates, but it isn\'t likely. A power wall will increase the system cost by 33 to 50%.
Variable power rates don\'t come into it. The utility companies can\'t pay you as much for power as they charge you when they sell it to you (except as a short term come-in-sucker arrangement).

They sure as hell do - you store power for the most expensive time of day, Bozo.

In the Australia market, power walls don\'t seem to be that expensive.

You obviously don\'t own one, Bozo.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 2:17:11 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 10:59:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 3:17:35 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 7:46:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:47:33 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 2:19:57 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:33:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Those costs are very recent.

But no specific year.

Try 2022, idiot - is that RECENT ENOUGH?

That may have been when you put them together, but you capacity to find up-to-date data isn\'t great.

So, no, they are RIGHT - go look it up and get back to us.

Gnatguy expects to be taken seriously.

Tell me, what does it cost to install a 6KW home solar system - TODAY?
Where? And what does the 6kW mean? Peak power or averaged over a typical day?

Do you fucking know what a watt is, Bozo? If not, look it up. Well, it is SIX THOUSAND of those! This is the STANDARD way solar systems are spec\'d - if you don\'t know that you are totally IGNORANT about their cost.

Just answer the question.

Consequently, a lot of people are installing solar systems in Hawaii because of the short payback period. Incentives now are down to a 22% federal tax credit, which doesn\'t change the payback period a large amount. What was surprising was Alaska, where the payback is just 9 years because of the high cost of electric power.

Another thing about tax credits: only people that actually pay taxes can use them, so it doesn\'t help low-income people. So, poor people end up subsidizing rich people, which is definitely happening with EVs. Although poor people don\'t pay taxes, these subsidies (which require more borrowing) drive up inflation which hurts the poor disproportionately.

The tax credits are going to go away. Putting solar cells on your roof and a Tesla Power Wall into your house is much too good an investment for any government to bother subsidising it. The utility companies don\'t like buying domestic solar output, so it makes a lot more sense to put your excess output into a Power Wall and use it up yourself overnight. Eventually the utility companies will buy access to domestic Power Walls, and use them to even out the load on the grid, but that\'s going to take a while.

As I already said (didn\'t you read it?) the credit in the US is currently 22%; eliminating it would add 1 to 2 years to the payback period.

Why would I pay any attention to what you claim? Post a link so we can see what you have misunderstood.

It is readily available to even an 8-year-old.

But not to you?

Battery backup MAY make sense to those that have variable power rates, but it isn\'t likely. A power wall will increase the system cost by 33 to 50%.

Variable power rates don\'t come into it. The utility companies can\'t pay you as much for power as they charge you when they sell it to you (except as a short term come-in-sucker arrangement).

They sure as hell do - you store power for the most expensive time of day..

It\'s still a short term come-in-sucker arrangement. Their solar farms are producing extra power then too, and funding the storage arrangements that let you sell it on after the sun has gone down is something that really hasn\'t happened yet.

In the Australia market, power walls don\'t seem to be that expensive.

You obviously don\'t own one.

I live in an apartment. There\'s no space to put up solar cells, so no need for a power wall.

This is cut and pasted from a response to Fred Bloggs not far up the thread

\"> The biggest one is 13.5kWh. You do understand that at ten cents per kwh that is $1.35 daily or $41 per month, so at $8500 price that would be 210 months payback or 17 years. That\'s 7 years past warranty or 3 years past the 5,000 cycles. The later ones have this other 37.8Mwh warranty or 2800 total load dumps which is even less. Go ahead and scale all that with your per kwh rate. Things get even worse when you start looking at typical loading. It\'s a misrepresented worthless technology unless maybe you live in a tent.

Or someplace where residential power is more expensive. It\'s about $A0.20 per kW.hr in NSW, Australia at the moment, or $US 0.14. Curiously, the Power Wall 2 is also cheaper here - it\'s only $A10,500 or $A8,500 each if you buy two, and there is still a 26% government tax credit available so you actually have to pay even less.\"

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Bill Sloman, Sydney