Testing Triac. Terms

[Chretien]

Im a little confused by what is meant by infinity.
I know what infinity mean in english eg goes forever.

But in reading an article
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/triactst.htm

Point 8 says.
You should set the meter to the highest setting
And a Normal reading is infinity between T1 and T2 and T1 and Gate. When I
set my DVM to 200M (the highest ) I get .09 and 1.3 Mega Ohms

In my mind infinity is sort of the difference between Null and 0. 0 is a
number null is nothing.
Sooo infinity means that there is something out there but you will never see
it. Different from Open which means there is no connection between the two
points.

Im still confused however by what an infinity number is suppose to be.

 

[Fritz Schlunder]

"Chretien" <Cretian@123.com> wrote in message
news:k7OdnanP4vJFbs7fRVn-jg@rogers.com...

Im a little confused by what is meant by infinity.
I know what infinity mean in english eg goes forever.

But in reading an article
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/triactst.htm

Point 8 says.
You should set the meter to the highest setting
And a Normal reading is infinity between T1 and T2 and T1 and Gate. When I
set my DVM to 200M (the highest ) I get .09 and 1.3 Mega Ohms

In my mind infinity is sort of the difference between Null and 0. 0 is a
number null is nothing.
Sooo infinity means that there is something out there but you will never
see
it. Different from Open which means there is no connection between the two
points.

Im still confused however by what an infinity number is suppose to be.

Infinity means different things to different people and in different
contexts. However, typically with regards to DVM readings infinity usually
means any resistance that will measure as over range on the maximum
resistance scale.

Realize that you cannot touch the leads or anything while you are making
very large resistance measurements. If you touch both leads with your skin
you can get all kinds of resistance measurements anywhere from several kilo
or tens of kilo ohms to many megohms. It varies significantly depending
upon how wet your skin is and how much pressure you hold the leads with (as
well as the metal surface area in contact with your skin).

I suspect that is what you measured in the above test when you found 90k and
1.3Mohm resistances. Try the test again but don't touch any metal in the
process.

 

[Chretien]

"Fritz Schlunder" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:d317kd$tra$1@domitilla.aioe.org...

"Chretien" <Cretian@123.com> wrote in message
news:k7OdnanP4vJFbs7fRVn-jg@rogers.com...
Im a little confused by what is meant by infinity.
I know what infinity mean in english eg goes forever.

But in reading an article
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/triactst.htm

Point 8 says.
You should set the meter to the highest setting
And a Normal reading is infinity between T1 and T2 and T1 and Gate. When
I
set my DVM to 200M (the highest ) I get .09 and 1.3 Mega Ohms

In my mind infinity is sort of the difference between Null and 0. 0 is a
number null is nothing.
Sooo infinity means that there is something out there but you will never
see
it. Different from Open which means there is no connection between the
two
points.

Im still confused however by what an infinity number is suppose to be.


Infinity means different things to different people and in different
contexts. However, typically with regards to DVM readings infinity
usually
means any resistance that will measure as over range on the maximum
resistance scale.

Realize that you cannot touch the leads or anything while you are making
very large resistance measurements. If you touch both leads with your
skin
you can get all kinds of resistance measurements anywhere from several
kilo
or tens of kilo ohms to many megohms. It varies significantly depending
upon how wet your skin is and how much pressure you hold the leads with
(as
well as the metal surface area in contact with your skin).

I suspect that is what you measured in the above test when you found 90k
and
1.3Mohm resistances. Try the test again but don't touch any metal in the
process.

To all responders. Thanks for the feedback.

I think I understand. Actually I think my last reply was right it just was
not perhaps properly spelled out or clear ( I wish sometimes when people
spoke Electron'eze they would use some better descriptions)

My meter probably cost about 50 or 60 bucks. Not the best but not 10
Dollars. It goes from 200 to 200meg Ohm.

When I measure say a resister that is out of range, as now I have learned
the term, it displays 0.00. With an open circuit it measures "1 ."

Out of range then if I dare make another attempt at defining this means then
(or infinity in the description of testing the triac) that the resistance is
so high that the average meter in the lower settings will not register it.
I'm afraid the O.L comment fooled me a bit I thought when you said it, it
meant Open Line or Open. not Over Load. I know now that I think when my
meter says 0.00 it means "over load". eg its detecting something but not
able to display at that setting.

Regards



Regards

 

[Peter Bennett]

On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:25:35 -0500, "Chretien" <Cretian@123.com> wrote:

Chris thanks for your help and the added tips on triacs.

So just for clarification, When you say over range what you mean is that if
you set the meter to some mid range level say 1M Ohm your going to get a
reading of 0.00 eg. Something but not enough to care about.

No - over range is open circuit - the meter will show the same as it
shows if the probes are not connected to anything (my meter shows
"OL", others may flash, or show some obviously invalid inidcation.)


--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq

 

[John Smith]

"Chretien" <Cretian@123.com> wrote in message
news:k7OdnanP4vJFbs7fRVn-jg@rogers.com...

Im a little confused by what is meant by infinity.
I know what infinity mean in english eg goes forever.

But in reading an article
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/triactst.htm

Point 8 says.
You should set the meter to the highest setting
And a Normal reading is infinity between T1 and T2 and T1 and Gate. When I
set my DVM to 200M (the highest ) I get .09 and 1.3 Mega Ohms

In my mind infinity is sort of the difference between Null and 0. 0 is a
number null is nothing.
Sooo infinity means that there is something out there but you will never
see
it. Different from Open which means there is no connection between the two
points.

Im still confused however by what an infinity number is suppose to be.





I would suggest that, without reading the article, it was written with an

analogue multimeter in mind. By 'infinity' they probably mean open circuit.
However, 'open circuit' needs to be taken with a pinch of salt: it is still
a piece of silicon (or other semiconductor) and will not be a perfect open
circuit, just a rather high resistance. Several megaohms is rather high, and
for most purposes could be taken as open circuit (unless you start playing
with high voltage).

 

[John Smith]

Having just glanced at said article, where it clearly states 'Digital
multimeter' ....

As other poster's have said, set your DMM range to a low resistance range.
If this is not possible, then treat your readings of several megaohms as
'infinity'.


"John Smith" <bill.gates@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:d32nh2$li$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...

"Chretien" <Cretian@123.com> wrote in message
news:k7OdnanP4vJFbs7fRVn-jg@rogers.com...
Im a little confused by what is meant by infinity.
I know what infinity mean in english eg goes forever.

But in reading an article
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/triactst.htm

Point 8 says.
You should set the meter to the highest setting
And a Normal reading is infinity between T1 and T2 and T1 and Gate. When
I
set my DVM to 200M (the highest ) I get .09 and 1.3 Mega Ohms

In my mind infinity is sort of the difference between Null and 0. 0 is a
number null is nothing.
Sooo infinity means that there is something out there but you will never
see
it. Different from Open which means there is no connection between the
two
points.

Im still confused however by what an infinity number is suppose to be.





I would suggest that, without reading the article, it was written with an
analogue multimeter in mind. By 'infinity' they probably mean open
circuit.
However, 'open circuit' needs to be taken with a pinch of salt: it is
still
a piece of silicon (or other semiconductor) and will not be a perfect open
circuit, just a rather high resistance. Several megaohms is rather high,
and
for most purposes could be taken as open circuit (unless you start playing
with high voltage).

 

[Peter Bennett]

On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:08:20 -0500, "Chretien" <Cretian@123.com> wrote:

To all responders. Thanks for the feedback.

I think I understand. Actually I think my last reply was right it just was
not perhaps properly spelled out or clear ( I wish sometimes when people
spoke Electron'eze they would use some better descriptions)

My meter probably cost about 50 or 60 bucks. Not the best but not 10
Dollars. It goes from 200 to 200meg Ohm.

When I measure say a resister that is out of range, as now I have learned
the term, it displays 0.00. With an open circuit it measures "1 ."

No. A reading of 0.00 indicates zero resistance - a short circuit -
the lowest resistance the meter can measure.

"Over Range" or "out of range" means a higher resistance than the
meter can measure.

Out of range then if I dare make another attempt at defining this means then
(or infinity in the description of testing the triac) that the resistance is
so high that the average meter in the lower settings will not register it.
I'm afraid the O.L comment fooled me a bit I thought when you said it, it
meant Open Line or Open. not Over Load. I know now that I think when my
meter says 0.00 it means "over load". eg its detecting something but not
able to display at that setting.

One of my meters displays "OL" for open circuit/over range - it really
isn't a "proper" indication for this condition when measuring
resistance, but is easily displayed on a 7-segment digital display,
and does make sense if you try to measure a current or voltage greater
than the meter can display.

My other meter displays "-1 " for an open circuit - it is clearly an
invalid value, so you know the meter can't display what you want it
to.


--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq

 

[Chretien]

"Peter Bennett" <peterbb@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:2kpa511kt2t5flof38ufu112iarmnbcmlc@4ax.com...

On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:08:20 -0500, "Chretien" <Cretian@123.com> wrote:



To all responders. Thanks for the feedback.

I think I understand. Actually I think my last reply was right it just
was
not perhaps properly spelled out or clear ( I wish sometimes when people
spoke Electron'eze they would use some better descriptions)

My meter probably cost about 50 or 60 bucks. Not the best but not 10
Dollars. It goes from 200 to 200meg Ohm.

When I measure say a resister that is out of range, as now I have learned
the term, it displays 0.00. With an open circuit it measures "1 ."

No. A reading of 0.00 indicates zero resistance - a short circuit -
the lowest resistance the meter can measure.

"Over Range" or "out of range" means a higher resistance than the
meter can measure.

Out of range then if I dare make another attempt at defining this means
then
(or infinity in the description of testing the triac) that the resistance
is
so high that the average meter in the lower settings will not register
it.
I'm afraid the O.L comment fooled me a bit I thought when you said it, it
meant Open Line or Open. not Over Load. I know now that I think when my
meter says 0.00 it means "over load". eg its detecting something but not
able to display at that setting.

One of my meters displays "OL" for open circuit/over range - it really
isn't a "proper" indication for this condition when measuring
resistance, but is easily displayed on a 7-segment digital display,
and does make sense if you try to measure a current or voltage greater
than the meter can display.

My other meter displays "-1 " for an open circuit - it is clearly an
invalid value, so you know the meter can't display what you want it
to.


--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs:
http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq

Its unfortunate that the meter people cant get together.
I checked with one of my other meters and when I put a 15k R on it and set
it for 200. It just does not change at all stays at "1 ." which is what it
stays at when there is nothing on it. I wonder what it would take the
manufacturers to start with a - dash lets say when the meter is on but not
measuring resistance. And then when out of range say something else like
+++. Frankly I find my original meter the bigger of the two with fancier
options confusing when it also displays "1 ." for no resistance and 0.00
for out of range. Normally when I think there is a dead short i use the
diode/Beeper setting. Frankly it is a little disconcerting that out of
range gives an output of 0.00 but I wonder if it is actually producing an
output but that there are not enough digits on the display to show it ??.
Anyway I'm sort of smart enough to know what I expect to get and so if I
think its a short rather than an over limit I test it with the diode/Beeper
setting.

Thanks again. It all just goes to show each step of the way that every area
of electronics has a lot of learning.

Regards

 

[Peter Bennett]

On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:38:17 -0500, "Chretien" <Cretian@123.com> wrote:

Its unfortunate that the meter people cant get together.
I checked with one of my other meters and when I put a 15k R on it and set
it for 200. It just does not change at all stays at "1 ." which is what it
stays at when there is nothing on it. I wonder what it would take the
manufacturers to start with a - dash lets say when the meter is on but not
measuring resistance. And then when out of range say something else like
+++.

Unfortunately, meters can't tell the difference between a resistance a
little more than full-scale, and open circuit, so your display of
"1 ." just means "the resistance between the test leads is more than
I can measure on this range".

Frankly I find my original meter the bigger of the two with fancier
options confusing when it also displays "1 ." for no resistance and 0.00
for out of range. Normally when I think there is a dead short i use the
diode/Beeper setting. Frankly it is a little disconcerting that out of
range gives an output of 0.00 but I wonder if it is actually producing an
output but that there are not enough digits on the display to show it ??.
Anyway I'm sort of smart enough to know what I expect to get and so if I
think its a short rather than an over limit I test it with the diode/Beeper
setting.

I am certain that the reading of "0.00" indicates a low resistance -
too low to show any digits on the display. For example, if you set a
three-digit meter for 2K full scale, it will be unable to display a
resistance under 10 ohms, so would show "0.00" for any resistance
below 10 ohms.


--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq

 

[Chretien]

"Chris" <cfoley1064@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1112804442.289521.135380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

Chretien wrote:
Im a little confused by what is meant by infinity.
I know what infinity mean in english eg goes forever.

But in reading an article
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/triactst.htm

Point 8 says.
You should set the meter to the highest setting
And a Normal reading is infinity between T1 and T2 and T1 and Gate.
When I
set my DVM to 200M (the highest ) I get .09 and 1.3 Mega Ohms

In my mind infinity is sort of the difference between Null and 0. 0
is a
number null is nothing.
Sooo infinity means that there is something out there but you will
never see
it. Different from Open which means there is no connection between
the two
points.

Im still confused however by what an infinity number is suppose to
be.

Hi, Chretien. If you look at 5) on the web page, they ask you to set
your meter to the range that will read 40 ohms (usually 200 or 320 ohms
full scale). If you do that, and measure something over the full scale
range, you will get "O.L." or a blank. That's what they mean by
"infinity", just overrange. Your meter (a pretty good one, I guess --
most DVMs don't have a 200 meg range) should have the capability to set
the range.

By the way, those static tests mentioned on the web page for testing
triacs could be augmented by this trick:

* Meter + on MT1
* Meter - on MT2
(Meter reads O.L., indicating that the triac is not conducting)
* While holding probes on MT1 and MT2, connect a 100 ohm resistor
between MT1 and G
(Meter will now read low ohms, indicating that the triac starting to
conduct)

This will work well for all but the biggest triacs with highest minimum
gate current. With a little practice, it's not too difficult.

Good luck
Chris

Chris thanks for your help and the added tips on triacs.

So just for clarification, When you say over range what you mean is that if
you set the meter to some mid range level say 1M Ohm your going to get a
reading of 0.00 eg. Something but not enough to care about.

The reason I had mine set to the highest setting was becasue the beginnig of
point 8 says to set the meter to the highest resistance setting. I sort of
wish that people would give a number like 1M or 2M. A bit of range. Rather
than the highest. Lets face it if there were a "Cray super meter" it could
mesure the resistance of anything.

 

[Chris]

Chretien wrote:

Im a little confused by what is meant by infinity.
I know what infinity mean in english eg goes forever.

But in reading an article
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/triactst.htm

Point 8 says.
You should set the meter to the highest setting
And a Normal reading is infinity between T1 and T2 and T1 and Gate.
When I
set my DVM to 200M (the highest ) I get .09 and 1.3 Mega Ohms

In my mind infinity is sort of the difference between Null and 0. 0
is a
number null is nothing.
Sooo infinity means that there is something out there but you will
never see
it. Different from Open which means there is no connection between
the two
points.

Im still confused however by what an infinity number is suppose to
be.

Hi, Chretien. If you look at 5) on the web page, they ask you to set
your meter to the range that will read 40 ohms (usually 200 or 320 ohms
full scale). If you do that, and measure something over the full scale
range, you will get "O.L." or a blank. That's what they mean by
"infinity", just overrange. Your meter (a pretty good one, I guess --
most DVMs don't have a 200 meg range) should have the capability to set
the range.

By the way, those static tests mentioned on the web page for testing
triacs could be augmented by this trick:

* Meter + on MT1
* Meter - on MT2
(Meter reads O.L., indicating that the triac is not conducting)
* While holding probes on MT1 and MT2, connect a 100 ohm resistor
between MT1 and G
(Meter will now read low ohms, indicating that the triac starting to
conduct)

This will work well for all but the biggest triacs with highest minimum
gate current. With a little practice, it's not too difficult.

Good luck
Chris

 

[Chris]

Chretien wrote:

Chris thanks for your help and the added tips on triacs.

So just for clarification, When you say over range what you mean is
that if
you set the meter to some mid range level say 1M Ohm your going to
get a
reading of 0.00 eg. Something but not enough to care about.

The reason I had mine set to the highest setting was becasue the
beginnig of
point 8 says to set the meter to the highest resistance setting. I
sort of
wish that people would give a number like 1M or 2M. A bit of range.
Rather
than the highest. Lets face it if there were a "Cray super meter" it
could
mesure the resistance of anything.

Hi, Chretien. First, I guess I should say that, if you're sure about
your pinouts on the triac you're testing, your test results indicate
the triac's probably bad. You might want to double-check the pinout at
the NTE cross-reference web site to make sure:

http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/$$Search?OpenForm

I don't think you're quite getting what "over range" means. Let's say
you have a 2000-count $10 cheapie DMM which has several resistance
ranges, from 200 ohm to 2Meg. "Range" means what the full "2000"
means. On the 200 ohm range, "1999" means 199.9 ohms. On that range,
201 ohms would be "over range" (it can't show 201.0) and would probably
show "O.L." (over load) on the DMM display. If you bumped up to the 2K
range, though, it would show as 0201 just fine, and be in range.

On the webpage, I guess the author was using the word "infinity" as a
rather inelegant way to say the resistance reading is over range.

If you want to measure high resistances, you need another instrument,
because you generally need a much higher voltage to get enough of a
reading. I'll use an old HP3456A DMM to measure up to 200 meg with
pretty fair accuracy, but I'll measure higher resistances with a
megohmmeter, which applies a higher voltage (typically hundreds of
volts) to a resistor to measure current and infer resistance (typically
1000s of megohms, or gigohms). These are also typically used to
measure insulation resistance for product and motor safety. The Mouser
catalog lists megohmmeters from $179 USD (an Extech cheapie) to $3500
USD for a 15KV Megger.

If you happen to need "knock your socks off" accuracy in measuring high
resistances, and/or if you can't apply that high a voltage to the DUT,
Keithley makes a great line of instruments which will definitely do the
job, but they're definitely out of the s.e.b. price range. On the
other hand, maybe you'll win the Lotto, or come into an inheritance,
and be able to bump up to the s.e.d. range. In that case, a Keithley
current source/picoammeter would be in range. ;-)

Good luck with your repair
Chris