telephone current

[Michael Hamm]

How much power is in my phone line? Is there any way I can use it?

(<URL:http://google.com/groups?selm=930124.2%40eecs.nwu.edu&output=gplain>
and <URL:http://www.faqs.org/faqs/alt-2600/faq/> don't answer this.)

(Posted to alt.2600 and sci.electronics.basics with f'ups set to the
latter, as my newsserver doesn't carry the former. If you choose to f'up
only to alt.2600 then please e-mail me a copy. Thanks.)

Michael Hamm
AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis
msh210@math.wustl.edu Standard disclaimers:
http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ ... legal.html

--
Michael Hamm
AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis
msh210@math.wustl.edu Standard disclaimers:
http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ ... legal.html

 

[Onideus Mad Hatter]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:29:44 -0500, Michael Hamm <msh210@math.wustl.edu> wrote:

How much power is in my phone line? Is there any way I can use it?

Take a phone cord (CAT11), plug one end into the wall, strip off the other end so you get the bare
wires...now stick em in your mouth! Really, that's the best way you can use it. And oh hey, if you
get someone to call your house while you're doing it, you should also get a lovely spike, about like
40 volts if I remember correctly, that's even better than the base 12 or so volts...not really much
of a phreaker though so I can't say for certain, but putting the wire in your mouth, yeah, I think
that'd be the easiest way for you to find what you're lookin for. ^_^

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm š x š
http://www.backwater-productions.net

 

[Meat-->Plow]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:50:54 -0700, Onideus Mad Hatter
<mad_hatter@charter.net>,wrote:

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:29:44 -0500, Michael Hamm <msh210@math.wustl.edu> wrote:

How much power is in my phone line? Is there any way I can use it?

Take a phone cord (CAT11), plug one end into the wall, strip off the other end so you get the bare
wires...now stick em in your mouth! Really, that's the best way you can use it. And oh hey, if you
get someone to call your house while you're doing it, you should also get a lovely spike, about like
40 volts if I remember correctly, that's even better than the base 12 or so volts...not really much
of a phreaker though so I can't say for certain, but putting the wire in your mouth, yeah, I think
that'd be the easiest way for you to find what you're lookin for. ^_^

Shut up Diaper Boi, we don't care what you think.

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:29:44 -0500, Michael Hamm <msh210@math.wustl.edu> wrote:

How much power is in my phone line?

When on-hook, you really cannot get much power from the phone line. A very few
microamps (load on the line should be something like 5Meg or greater.) There
was a time (like on the princess phones) when the phone company actually
supplied a power wire-pair for the phone lights. But that didn't last so long.
If there was any appreciable power availability from the phone line, can you
imagine how much power they might have to fund without anyone to charge for it?

When off-hook, they are supplying power. So you can draw some current when you
are engaged in a phone call. But the total loading (including the phone you are
using) shouldn't go under some hundreds of ohms at a subscriber site, if I
recall.

Is there any way I can use it?

That's a wide-open question. You should have clarified it by providing some of
the specific ideas you are thinking about. How can anyone well answer such a
question as you ask here?

The general answer is that you shouldn't consider it. Dbowey is an expert on
this subject, sometimes posts here, and was a real help in letting me know just
how difficult even this task really is, if it is to be done well and correctly.

I wanted an LED indicator that wasn't part of any phone and that I could put on
every phone jack in the house to provide a positive indication if the line was
in use. My resulting circuit draws less than 1uA of current when the phone is
on-hook and draws just 1mA for the LED when the phone line is off-hook. Even
then, I can't add too many of these around the home as the LED draw itself could
wind up "holding" the line after the phone is replaced to the on-hook condition.

I considered the idea of automatically interrupting the LED load every so often
so that I could test the line, allowing a larger number of these to be used
simultaneously, but I'd need to include time for the central office to respond
and I'd need to work out some way for all the LED units to remove their loads in
concert with each other, too. Way too much pain.

The phone system has been carefully crafted over time exactly for one purpose
and probably also to minimize their operational costs due to problems or abuse
at the subscriber end of things. They've got it pretty well cornered, now.

Jon

 

[John Fields]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:29:44 -0500, Michael Hamm
<msh210@math.wustl.edu> wrote:

How much power is in my phone line?

---
Not much
---

Is there any way I can use it?

---
Depends... TPC takes a dim view of people screwing around with their
stuff, but what did you have in mind?

--
John Fields

 

[andy]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:29:44 -0500, Michael Hamm wrote:

How much power is in my phone line? Is there any way I can use it?

(<URL:http://google.com/groups?selm=930124.2%40eecs.nwu.edu&output=gplain
and <URL:http://www.faqs.org/faqs/alt-2600/faq/> don't answer this.)

(Posted to alt.2600 and sci.electronics.basics with f'ups set to the
latter, as my newsserver doesn't carry the former. If you choose to f'up
only to alt.2600 then please e-mail me a copy. Thanks.)

Michael Hamm
AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis
msh210@math.wustl.edu Standard disclaimers:
http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ ... legal.html

http://www.epanorama.net/links/telephone.html#linegeneral

but if you use it for anything other than powering telephone equipment in
a way approved by your telco, you're probably breaking the law / terms of
service.



--
http://www.niftybits.ukfsn.org/

remove 'n-u-l-l' to email me. html mail or attachments will go in the spam
bin unless notified with

 or [attachment] in the subject line.

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:35:17 +0000 (UTC), mhamm@artsci.wustl.edu (Michael Hamm)
wrote:

Actually, I'd been thinking of wiring up a lightbulb during a blackout.

Nope. Maybe an LED. But also, the phone company will (I believe) sense a
current draw where you DO NOT make a phone call as a "customer problem" and
disconnect you, periodically and automatically rechecking the line every so
often. They don't like supplying power, unless it is for a phone call.

But no light bulbs. Not even close.

Jon

 

[Michael Hamm]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:25:59 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan <jkirwan@easystreet.com>
wrote, in part:

Is there any way I can use it?

That's a wide-open question. You should have clarified it by providing
some of the specific ideas you are thinking about.

Actually, I'd been thinking of wiring up a lightbulb during a blackout.
Someone else noted that it's likely illegal and/or against the TOS/AUP.
So I won't. But based on responses, I suppose I *could* if the phone is
off the hook. I'm a tyro: I don't know when the phone is "off the hook":
but it seems to me that if I (somehow) attach a lightbulb to my phone wire
and plug the latter into my jack, the phone company will consider me "off
the hook", no?

Michael Hamm
AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis
msh210@math.wustl.edu Standard disclaimers:
http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ ... legal.html

 

[Jamie]

hmm
apox 50 volts when waiting.
100 when ringing.
around 10..15 when the phone is off the hook.
the polarity will alternate depending on if the other party
picks up on the other end, this is one way how automative
equipment knows you answered the phone.



Michael Hamm wrote:

How much power is in my phone line? Is there any way I can use it?

(<URL:http://google.com/groups?selm=930124.2%40eecs.nwu.edu&output=gplain
and <URL:http://www.faqs.org/faqs/alt-2600/faq/> don't answer this.)

(Posted to alt.2600 and sci.electronics.basics with f'ups set to the
latter, as my newsserver doesn't carry the former. If you choose to f'up
only to alt.2600 then please e-mail me a copy. Thanks.)

Michael Hamm
AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis
msh210@math.wustl.edu Standard disclaimers:
http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ ... legal.html

--
Michael Hamm
AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis
msh210@math.wustl.edu Standard disclaimers:
http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ ... legal.html

 

[Roy McCammon]

Michael Hamm wrote:

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:25:59 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan <jkirwan@easystreet.com
wrote, in part:

Is there any way I can use it?

That's a wide-open question. You should have clarified it by providing
some of the specific ideas you are thinking about.


Actually, I'd been thinking of wiring up a lightbulb during a blackout.
Someone else noted that it's likely illegal and/or against the TOS/AUP.
So I won't. But based on responses, I suppose I *could* if the phone is
off the hook. I'm a tyro: I don't know when the phone is "off the hook":
but it seems to me that if I (somehow) attach a lightbulb to my phone wire
and plug the latter into my jack, the phone company will consider me "off
the hook", no?

they'll consider you "perminant signal" and disconnect you for a while.


--
local optimization seldom leads to global optimization

my e-mail address is: <my first name> <my last name> AT mmm DOT com

 

[Peter Bennett]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:35:17 +0000 (UTC), mhamm@artsci.wustl.edu
(Michael Hamm) wrote:

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:25:59 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan <jkirwan@easystreet.com
wrote, in part:
Is there any way I can use it?

That's a wide-open question. You should have clarified it by providing
some of the specific ideas you are thinking about.

Actually, I'd been thinking of wiring up a lightbulb during a blackout.
Someone else noted that it's likely illegal and/or against the TOS/AUP.
So I won't. But based on responses, I suppose I *could* if the phone is
off the hook. I'm a tyro: I don't know when the phone is "off the hook":
but it seems to me that if I (somehow) attach a lightbulb to my phone wire
and plug the latter into my jack, the phone company will consider me "off
the hook", no?

"Off Hook" means "while the phone is in use". If you draw any
appreciable current from the phone line (even just a couple of mA to
light a LED), the phone company will think your phone is "off hook",
and anyone trying to call you will get a busy signal. If they see
that your phone is "off hook" for a long time, without your making a
phone call, they will disable your line, and/or initiate
troubleshooting procedures.

Even if you are willing to accept these problems, you can only draw a
few mA - perhaps enough to light a couple of LEDs - certainly not
enough to produce any useful room lighting.



--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq

 

[Rich Grise]

Peter Bennett wrote:

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:35:17 +0000 (UTC), mhamm@artsci.wustl.edu
(Michael Hamm) wrote:

and plug the latter into my jack, the phone company will consider me "off
the hook", no?

"Off Hook" means "while the phone is in use". If you draw any
appreciable current from the phone line (even just a couple of mA to
light a LED), the phone company will think your phone is "off hook",
and anyone trying to call you will get a busy signal. If they see
that your phone is "off hook" for a long time, without your making a
phone call, they will disable your line, and/or initiate
troubleshooting procedures.

Have you ever left an actual phone sitting off-hook? After awhile,
the dialtone stops. Then, after maybe 10 minutes, it starts an
alarm that you can hear all the way across the room - I wouldn't
want to be across the lines when that happens - and then they cut
it off.

Or at least they did mumble-mumble years ago.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Externet]

Michael Hamm <msh210@math.wustl.edu> wrote in message

How much power is in my phone line? Is there any way I can use it?

There is about 0.2 Watts available. At about 6V and 35mA average,
depending on the distance from the Telco.

I have a transistor radio with a small power adaptation circuit and
works very well into the telephone line. To use as illumination, a 6V
0.03A light bulb is the most you can get, or 6 leds in 3series
2parallel, each running with 2V at 15mA.
The ringing signal has 1W per REN number. If your line has a
capability of 5 REN; then 5W every time the bell rings, at about 86V
at 20 Hz depending on your country.
1 REN is 8000 ohms impedance.

Miguel

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On 13 Aug 2004 15:05:31 -0700, externet@inorbit.com (Externet) wrote:

There is about 0.2 Watts available. At about 6V and 35mA average,
depending on the distance from the Telco.

In my area, it's about 8V @ 24mA with a 330 Ohm resistor hung across ring and
tip. Of course, this means the phone line is considered "off hook" and I won't
be getting any calls (or making any.)

I have a transistor radio with a small power adaptation circuit and
works very well into the telephone line. To use as illumination, a 6V
0.03A light bulb is the most you can get, or 6 leds in 3series
2parallel, each running with 2V at 15mA.

I've run LEDs on the phone line. But, at least in my area, the phone company
cuts off the power for periods of time if there isn't an active phone call in
progress, reconnecting some power occasionally to see if the problem has removed
itself. The phone company doesn't know if some squirrel has just shorted the
phone lines or not, when you draw power, and they don't appear to want to just
keeping feeding power down the line if it isn't working right.

Regardless, drawing in the range of 10mA means your phone circuit isn't
available for phone calls. It busy's you out.

Jon

 

[Anthony Fremont]

"Jonathan Kirwan" <jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote in message
newsejqh0dsd9ib5ljnseus79gdm6eqt2s7te@4ax.com...

On 13 Aug 2004 15:05:31 -0700, externet@inorbit.com (Externet) wrote:

There is about 0.2 Watts available. At about 6V and 35mA average,
depending on the distance from the Telco.

In my area, it's about 8V @ 24mA with a 330 Ohm resistor hung across ring
and
tip. Of course, this means the phone line is considered "off hook" and I
won't
be getting any calls (or making any.)

That's close to what I get as well (off hook of course). On hook gives me
close to 50V and I can draw roughly 3mA from it without the CO cutting me
off, or missing any incoming calls. ;-) I've run a PIC chip and an LCD
powered solely by the phone line for days on end without any ill effects.
YMMV

I have a transistor radio with a small power adaptation circuit and
works very well into the telephone line. To use as illumination, a 6V
0.03A light bulb is the most you can get, or 6 leds in 3series
2parallel, each running with 2V at 15mA.

I've run LEDs on the phone line. But, at least in my area, the phone
company
cuts off the power for periods of time if there isn't an active phone call
in
progress, reconnecting some power occasionally to see if the problem has
removed
itself. The phone company doesn't know if some squirrel has just shorted
the
phone lines or not, when you draw power, and they don't appear to want to
just
keeping feeding power down the line if it isn't working right.

Regardless, drawing in the range of 10mA means your phone circuit isn't
available for phone calls. It busy's you out.

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

I found some information I'd written down in notes, somewhere:

On-Hook: 53V typical, only 5M loading allowed, can rise to 100V
Off-Hook: 3V-9V spec'd, 20mA marginal, 23mA minimum

Jon

 

[Robert C Monsen]

"Michael Hamm" <msh210@math.wustl.edu> wrote in message
newsine.GSO.4.58.0408121228050.28164@ascc.artsci.wustl.edu...

How much power is in my phone line? Is there any way I can use it?

One thing I've seen done is to charge up a big capacitor with a small
current that won't cause the telco to think you are off hook. You can
then do things like power intermittent sensors using the accumulated
charge across the capacitor. When the sensor detects whatever its
programmed to detect, it then makes a phone call to report the
situation. The circuit requires no external power source, other than
the phone line.

Regards,
Bob Monsen

 

[Homer.Simpson]

Anthony Fremont said

That's close to what I get as well (off hook of course). On hook
gives me close to 50V and I can draw roughly 3mA from it without the
CO cutting me off, or missing any incoming calls. ;-) I've run a PIC
chip and an LCD powered solely by the phone line for days on end
without any ill effects. YMMV

This is peaking my interest for no particular reason. What would one do
with such a processor and display connected to the phone line?

--
POLITICIANS & DIAPERS NEED TO BE CHANGED - FOR THE SAME REASON

 

[andy]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:32:36 +0000, Homer.Simpson wrote:

POLITICIANS & DIAPERS NEED TO BE CHANGED - FOR THE SAME REASON

you mean politicians are there to stop all the shit falling on the
carpet?

--
http://www.niftybits.ukfsn.org/

remove 'n-u-l-l' to email me. html mail or attachments will go in the spam
bin unless notified with

 or [attachment] in the subject line.

 

[John Fields]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:59:02 +0100, andy
<news4@earthsong.free-online.co.uk> wrote:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:32:36 +0000, Homer.Simpson wrote:

POLITICIANS & DIAPERS NEED TO BE CHANGED - FOR THE SAME REASON

you mean politicians are there to stop all the shit falling on the
carpet?

---
More than likely because they're both full of shit.

--
John Fields