Surge Protectors, they seem to be worthless.

[daveem Dave M]

I was wondering if any one here knows of a Surge Protector that actually
works?
I remember some time back when I was working in a TV repair shop, people
would often bring in sets that had been damaged from power surges, and
even though they had their sets plugged into surge protectors, the
things never worked. Any tips in this area would be appreciated.
Thanks, Dave

 

[Sofie]

daveem Dave M:

Yes, surge protectors do "help" to protect equipment.... BUT some surges can
still get through and do damage.
It is kind of like have seat belts and air bags in your car...... they will
help you minimize injuries in an accident but if you hit a logging truck
head-on at 60 mph they won't do much to save your life.

As a side note: One of the best types of surge protection is to use a UPS
which isolates the equipment from the AC line but you still have the
possible issues of the ground connections if they are not 100% up to par.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"daveem Dave M" <daveem@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14474-3F5FB09E-103@storefull-2134.public.lawson.webtv.net...

I was wondering if any one here knows of a Surge Protector that actually
works?
I remember some time back when I was working in a TV repair shop, people
would often bring in sets that had been damaged from power surges, and
even though they had their sets plugged into surge protectors, the
things never worked. Any tips in this area would be appreciated.
Thanks, Dave

 

[Jeff Wiseman]

daveem Dave M wrote:

I was wondering if any one here knows of a Surge Protector that actually
works?
I remember some time back when I was working in a TV repair shop, people
would often bring in sets that had been damaged from power surges, and
even though they had their sets plugged into surge protectors, the
things never worked. Any tips in this area would be appreciated.

Many protectors today use MOV technology whcih has some disadvantages. Others, like the Brickwall series use "Series mode" protection. They have patents on some of this so others are limited in some ways for using them. For example, Adcom is using this technology in their new protectors with "lightning protection" but I believe that they pay royalties to Brickwall, etc.

A bit of discription on this can be found at

http://brickwall.com/howwork.htm

- Jeff

 

[JM]

quoting:

I was wondering if any one here knows of a Surge Protector that actually
works?
I remember some time back when I was working in a TV repair shop, people
would often bring in sets that had been damaged from power surges, and
even though they had their sets plugged into surge protectors, the
things never worked. Any tips in this area would be appreciated.

One of the HUGE misconseptions about surge protectors is that people think an
inexpensive store bought plug-in surge protector will stop LIGHTNING. Those
things can only stop the smaller "power line surges", not lightning. Even
then, they do wear down after a while, and will need to be replaced.

 

[LASERandDVDfan]

I was wondering if any one here knows of a Surge Protector that actually
works?

Any surge protector will work ... to a certain degree.

Different surge protectors will have different tolerances, which are rated in
joules. The higher the joule rating, the better the protector will supress
larger surges.

However, no surge protector will protect from a lightning strike. Furthermore,
surge protectors do wear out from use to the point where they are not any
better at supressing surges than a regular six-outlet strip with no surge
supression. - Reinhart

 

[Jeff Wiseman]

LASERandDVDfan wrote:

Different surge protectors will have different tolerances, which are rated in
joules. The higher the joule rating, the better the protector will supress
larger surges.

Only if you are talking about MOV type protectors that are designed to absorb the excess energy. They are supposed to look like a short circuit to the surge so obviously, the better the "short", the better the protection. Since series mode protectors look like an open circuit to the surge, the opposite is true (i.e., 0 Joules is the best since nothing gets through except the standard power).

However, no surge protector will protect from a lightning strike.

Not exactly true. It is true if you are referring to the typical MOV based protectors

Furthermore,
surge protectors do wear out from use to the point where they are not any
better at supressing surges than a regular six-outlet strip with no surge
supression.

Again, this is really only true of MOV based units. the MOVs absorb the surges but are destroyed a bit each time they function. This is not the case for series mode protectors like those used in mission-critical areas.

- Jeff

 

[James Sweet]

They protect equipment against spikes generated by inductive loads starting
and stopping but a lightning strike will blow up even a high end surge
protector.

"daveem Dave M" <daveem@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14474-3F5FB09E-103@storefull-2134.public.lawson.webtv.net...

I was wondering if any one here knows of a Surge Protector that actually
works?
I remember some time back when I was working in a TV repair shop, people
would often bring in sets that had been damaged from power surges, and
even though they had their sets plugged into surge protectors, the
things never worked. Any tips in this area would be appreciated.
Thanks, Dave

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

Many times the problem is that the surge comes in though lines that are not
protected. Many TVs are connected to cable, sat, ant, stereo recievers, and
phone lines. If every line into the system is not protected, one protector
on the ac line of the TV may not make much difference.

I have a TV and DVD/receiver combo in my shop right now that were both
plugged into a surge suppressor. The antenna line was not protected with a
lightning arrestor nor was it grounded. The ground foils on the circuit
board of the receiver are like burned spaghetti, there are a dozen or more
fried parts in the TV, tuner is cooked in the TV, and the power supplies in
both appear to be intact. This was an extreme example but we see similar
problems with unprotected and poorly grounded sat and cable lines as well.

We sell the Panamax and I have used the ESP stuff, and I have very rarely
seen components damaged when on these, with all lines protected. Panamax
has a lifetime warranty and units that cover all lines, as well as
undervoltage protection on their better units. They seem to be well made
and they are an easy company to deal with. They will typically send a new
unit to anyone who returns an old one for testing/evaluation.

Other problems are that MOVs used in surge protectors degrade with repeated
surges and grounding in the ac service and on incoming lines may be poor.
The best surge suppressor is useless if there is not a good ground.

Leonard Caillouet


"daveem Dave M" <daveem@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14474-3F5FB09E-103@storefull-2134.public.lawson.webtv.net...

I was wondering if any one here knows of a Surge Protector that actually
works?
I remember some time back when I was working in a TV repair shop, people
would often bring in sets that had been damaged from power surges, and
even though they had their sets plugged into surge protectors, the
things never worked. Any tips in this area would be appreciated.
Thanks, Dave

 

[Mike Berger]

Your surge protector won't do much good without being connected to
a good ground. A long power cord on the surge protector could mean
a dubious ground.

I've gotten great service from the Tripp-Lite Isobar Ultra series. Aside
from the conventional MOV surge protection, they also have high and
low frequency filtering between pairs of outlets. I've had three die
while protecting the equipment behind them, and they were replaced
under the lifetime warranty at no cost. I've got a couple dozen in use.

daveem Dave M wrote:

I was wondering if any one here knows of a Surge Protector that actually
works?
I remember some time back when I was working in a TV repair shop, people
would often bring in sets that had been damaged from power surges, and
even though they had their sets plugged into surge protectors, the
things never worked. Any tips in this area would be appreciated.
Thanks, Dave

 

[Sofie]

Leonard Caillouet is quite correct....... a lot of equipment with 2 wire
ungrounded power will use a MOV quite effectively across the line......
more than once have I seen that arrangement burn up, short the MOV, and
save the equipment from over voltage.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Leonard G. Caillouet" <lcaillo_ns_@devoynet.com> wrote in message
news:94n8b.1697$vi3.940@bignews4.bellsouth.net...

That may not be true if the surge protector has hot-neutral prrotection,
as
do the Panamax, probably the Tripp-Lite and some other better quality
units.
Certainly having the ground is safer, but dumping to neutral is better
than
nothing.

Leonard Caillouet

"Mike Berger" <berger@shout.net> wrote in message
news:3F61F9D8.8F6A1E30@shout.net...
Your surge protector won't do much good without being connected to
a good ground. A long power cord on the surge protector could mean
a dubious ground.

I've gotten great service from the Tripp-Lite Isobar Ultra series.
Aside
from the conventional MOV surge protection, they also have high and
low frequency filtering between pairs of outlets. I've had three die
while protecting the equipment behind them, and they were replaced
under the lifetime warranty at no cost. I've got a couple dozen in use.

daveem Dave M wrote:

I was wondering if any one here knows of a Surge Protector that
actually
works?
I remember some time back when I was working in a TV repair shop,
people
would often bring in sets that had been damaged from power surges, and
even though they had their sets plugged into surge protectors, the
things never worked. Any tips in this area would be appreciated.
Thanks, Dave

 

[Al Savage]

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:17:05 UTC, "Sofie" <sofie@olypen.com> wrote:

As a side note: One of the best types of surge protection is to use a UPS
which isolates the equipment from the AC line but you still have the
possible issues of the ground connections if they are not 100% up to par.

All consumer-class UPS (that I'm aware of) are not online UPSs but
standby mode only, so that the thing is a voltage monitor + battery
charger until the line voltage goes out of range. I doubt that this
class of unit is going to provide much protection.

OTOH, the commercial class UPSs I've worked with regen the output, and
they are excellent filters Expensive, and often a bit warm though.

--
Regards,
Al S.

 

[w_tom]

What do you want to do? Stop a surge or earth it?

"Steve J. Noll" wrote:

I'm looking for surge suppressors of the wall-mount type - the kind
that don't have a line cord but mount right on the outlet.
Are there any of that style that have more sophisticated protection
than just MOVs. Something better than a TVSS clamping level of
the typical 330V for MOVs?

 

[Loren Coe]

In article <3F6462D6.6DAA6E33@hotmail.com>, w_tom wrote:

What do you want to do? Stop a surge or earth it?

iirc, the 'ideal' path is hot to neutral. what many folks
don't understand is that the MOV actually uses the wiring
as resistance and reflects hi impedance upstream. this
is how they suppress lightning and why there can be no
100% surefire protection (w/simple mov's) --Loren

"Steve J. Noll" wrote:
I'm looking for surge suppressors of the wall-mount type - the kind
that don't have a line cord but mount right on the outlet.
Are there any of that style that have more sophisticated protection
than just MOVs. Something better than a TVSS clamping level of
the typical 330V for MOVs?

 

[Loren Coe]

In article <3F654497.B2CE5DA4@hotmail.com>, w_tom wrote:

Are you saying that the lightning voltage is reflected back
out to the AC mains? Are you saying that the MOVs cause this
reflection?

nothing about voltage, just the impedance, as it rises the
likelyhood of the lightening taking a alternate path increases.

i am no expert but trained in electronics and have worked
on equipment damaged by lightening and have advised customers
on prevention.

my recollection is from a "white paper" read some years ago,
as the MOV reaches its trip point and starts conducting, the
current thru the power wires increases (of course) and for
that instant the voltage drop spikes and the line presents
almost infinite imepdance. i thought of it as inductive
reactance. again, iirc. --Loren

Loren Coe wrote:
In article <3F6462D6.6DAA6E33@hotmail.com>, w_tom wrote:
What do you want to do? Stop a surge or earth it?

iirc, the 'ideal' path is hot to neutral. what many folks
don't understand is that the MOV actually uses the wiring
as resistance and reflects hi impedance upstream. this
is how they suppress lightning and why there can be no
100% surefire protection (w/simple mov's) --Loren

 

[w_tom]

First learn about constant current sources. A destructive
surge is driven by a constant current source. IOW voltage
will increase, as necessary, to maintain that destructive
current flow through appliance. Furthermore, concepts of
impedance are consistent only within certain voltage ranges.
When discussing surges, breakdown voltages must also be
considered.

Impedance is important to a surge circuit. So much so that
wire is no longer considered a conductor; wire becomes an
electronic component.

For example, let's say a plug-in protector has shunted a 100
amp surge. Assume a 50 foot path to earth ground via
neutral. Wire resistance may be less than 0.2 ohms. But wire
impedance could be 130 ohms. That would be a (less than)
13,000 volt difference between surge protector (and adjacent
computer) and earth ground. At these voltages, a surge will
also find other (destructive) paths to earth - because wire
impedance is significant.

Wire impedance is why an effective (whole house) surge
protector makes a short (typically less than 10 foot)
connection to central earth ground.

Loren Coe wrote:

In article <3F654497.B2CE5DA4@hotmail.com>, w_tom wrote:
Are you saying that the lightning voltage is reflected back
out to the AC mains? Are you saying that the MOVs cause this
reflection?

nothing about voltage, just the impedance, as it rises the
likelyhood of the lightening taking a alternate path increases.

i am no expert but trained in electronics and have worked
on equipment damaged by lightening and have advised customers
on prevention.

my recollection is from a "white paper" read some years ago,
as the MOV reaches its trip point and starts conducting, the
current thru the power wires increases (of course) and for
that instant the voltage drop spikes and the line presents
almost infinite imepdance. i thought of it as inductive
reactance. again, iirc. --Loren

 

[Richard Freeman]

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3F667AE4.69785DA1@hotmail.com...

First learn about constant current sources. A destructive
surge is driven by a constant current source.

By Top posting again w_tom has managed to avoid the gist of what loren was
saying.

IOW voltage
will increase, as necessary, to maintain that destructive
current flow through appliance. Furthermore, concepts of
impedance are consistent only within certain voltage ranges.
When discussing surges, breakdown voltages must also be
considered.

Which is what loren was saying

Impedance is important to a surge circuit. So much so that
wire is no longer considered a conductor; wire becomes an
electronic component.

For example, let's say a plug-in protector has shunted a 100
amp surge. Assume a 50 foot path to earth ground via
neutral. Wire resistance may be less than 0.2 ohms. But wire
impedance could be 130 ohms. That would be a (less than)
13,000 volt difference between surge protector (and adjacent
computer) and earth ground. At these voltages, a surge will
also find other (destructive) paths to earth - because wire
impedance is significant.

Also consider the surge arrestor built in to the appliance with the
relatively high impedance wiring back to earth this surge arrestor keeps
power dissipated by this device to a minimum Also by effectively shunting
the surge to a common point within the device it helps keep the Voltage
across individual components in the device to a minimum (and often
bearable/surviveable level) throw in an isolated input though (such as the
Line Circuit for a modem) and damage happens.

Wire impedance is why an effective (whole house) surge
protector makes a short (typically less than 10 foot)
connection to central earth ground.

Wire impedance is also one of the reasons that individual device surge
protection can often be more effective than 'whole house protection' in the
event of a near strike. In the event of a Direct strike though all bets are
off. It also effectively counters one of w_toms favourite fallacies that
Lightning seeks an Earth in a phone line (usually connected via max of
single strand 0.28mm square copper wire) rather than MEN earth (connected
via at least 2.5mm square multi strand copper cable) but then again w_tom
never lets facts get in the way of his Fantasies

This just highlights w-toms rule of selective application ie that a
Lightning surge will have no trouble being shunted to earth via reatively
high impedance phone cabling (single strand 0.28mm square copper wire) but
will turn up its nose at comparitively low impedance mains cable.

Loren Coe wrote:
In article <3F654497.B2CE5DA4@hotmail.com>, w_tom wrote:
Are you saying that the lightning voltage is reflected back
out to the AC mains? Are you saying that the MOVs cause this
reflection?

nothing about voltage, just the impedance, as it rises the
likelyhood of the lightening taking a alternate path increases.

Correct and also the greater the likely hood of that path being destructive

i am no expert but trained in electronics and have worked
on equipment damaged by lightening and have advised customers
on prevention.

You probably have a better grasp on Lightning damage and protection than
w_tom

my recollection is from a "white paper" read some years ago,
as the MOV reaches its trip point and starts conducting, the
current thru the power wires increases (of course) and for
that instant the voltage drop spikes and the line presents
almost infinite imepdance. i thought of it as inductive
reactance. again, iirc. --Loren

I would have to do the sums - remember though that a MOV never becomes a
complete short it would not stop conducting if that happened which peversly
is also why they incinerate in direct/near strikes.

Regards
Richard Freeman