Spice: NPN.tol ? NPN.match ?

A

Active8

Guest
..MODEL N1 NPN IS=3.8E-16 BF=220 BR=0.7
+ ISE=1.8E-16 IKF=1.7E-2 NK=0.75 IKR=3E-2 NE=1.4 VAF=60
+ VAR=7 RC=63.4 RB=300 RE=19.7 XTB=1.17 XTI=5.4
+ TF=1.5E-10 TR=6E-9 XTF=0.3 VTF=6 ITF=5E-5 CJE=0.21E-12
+ MJE=0.33 VJE=0.7 ISC=5E-12 KF=2E-13 AF=1.4
..MODEL N1 NPN.tol IS=0.75 BF=.9
^^^
..MODEL N1 NPN.match IS=.03 BF=.03
^^^^^
What are these "extensions" for?
--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:16:38 GMT, Kevin Aylward wrote:

Active8 wrote:
.MODEL N1 NPN IS=3.8E-16 BF=220 BR=0.7
+ ISE=1.8E-16 IKF=1.7E-2 NK=0.75 IKR=3E-2 NE=1.4 VAF=60
+ VAR=7 RC=63.4 RB=300 RE=19.7 XTB=1.17 XTI=5.4
+ TF=1.5E-10 TR=6E-9 XTF=0.3 VTF=6 ITF=5E-5 CJE=0.21E-12
+ MJE=0.33 VJE=0.7 ISC=5E-12 KF=2E-13 AF=1.4
.MODEL N1 NPN.tol IS=0.75 BF=.9
^^^
.MODEL N1 NPN.match IS=.03 BF=.03
^^^^^
What are these "extensions" for?

New to me...but here goes...

Don't know about match but I can guess the NPN.tol as I have something
similar in SS. My bet is that the NPN.tol IS=0.75 BF=.9 gives the amount
to vary the base model in worst case and/or MC runs. The "match"
probably allows two of the same devices to be varied by the associate
value, e.g. one device's IS in 3% different from another.
Click to expand...
So for .tol, you think the variation in IS would be +/- 0.75, then,
right?

That's a reasonable guess. IT's a couple more keywords to google on,
anyway.

Odd how this syntax is similar to binning.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:20:09 -0500, Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net>
wrote:

.MODEL N1 NPN IS=3.8E-16 BF=220 BR=0.7
+ ISE=1.8E-16 IKF=1.7E-2 NK=0.75 IKR=3E-2 NE=1.4 VAF=60
+ VAR=7 RC=63.4 RB=300 RE=19.7 XTB=1.17 XTI=5.4
+ TF=1.5E-10 TR=6E-9 XTF=0.3 VTF=6 ITF=5E-5 CJE=0.21E-12
+ MJE=0.33 VJE=0.7 ISC=5E-12 KF=2E-13 AF=1.4
.MODEL N1 NPN.tol IS=0.75 BF=.9
^^^
.MODEL N1 NPN.match IS=.03 BF=.03
^^^^^
What are these "extensions" for?
Click to expand...
Here is the usual way Monte Carlo is done in a model file:

..MODEL N1 NPN (IS=5E-16 LOT/UNIFORM=90% DEV/GAUSS=3%)
+ (BF=220 LOT/UNIFORM=50% DEV/GAUSS=2%)
+ BR=0.7 NR=1...

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
In article <iinmr054uhnp3f105tom2c57juuo61e8ke@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

Security in PDFs is pretty much meaningless as long as they allow
printing. Just print to a PostScript file, then run thru Distiller.
Click to expand...
I belive that Distiller will refuse to do its thing
when presented with postscript derrived from an encrypted PDF. There
may be other tools out there of course...

Charles.
 
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:19:54 -0800, Charles Edmondson
<edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:

[snip]
Also, it helps that you push the envelope a lot!
--
Charlie
Click to expand...
I do tend to be a "demanding user" (aka PITA) don't I ?:)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Active8 wrote:
.MODEL N1 NPN IS=3.8E-16 BF=220 BR=0.7
+ ISE=1.8E-16 IKF=1.7E-2 NK=0.75 IKR=3E-2 NE=1.4 VAF=60
+ VAR=7 RC=63.4 RB=300 RE=19.7 XTB=1.17 XTI=5.4
+ TF=1.5E-10 TR=6E-9 XTF=0.3 VTF=6 ITF=5E-5 CJE=0.21E-12
+ MJE=0.33 VJE=0.7 ISC=5E-12 KF=2E-13 AF=1.4
.MODEL N1 NPN.tol IS=0.75 BF=.9
^^^
.MODEL N1 NPN.match IS=.03 BF=.03
^^^^^
What are these "extensions" for?
Click to expand...
New to me...but here goes...

Don't know about match but I can guess the NPN.tol as I have something
similar in SS. My bet is that the NPN.tol IS=0.75 BF=.9 gives the amount
to vary the base model in worst case and/or MC runs. The "match"
probably allows two of the same devices to be varied by the associate
value, e.g. one device's IS in 3% different from another.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
Active8 wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:16:38 GMT, Kevin Aylward wrote:

Active8 wrote:
.MODEL N1 NPN IS=3.8E-16 BF=220 BR=0.7
+ ISE=1.8E-16 IKF=1.7E-2 NK=0.75 IKR=3E-2 NE=1.4 VAF=60
+ VAR=7 RC=63.4 RB=300 RE=19.7 XTB=1.17 XTI=5.4
+ TF=1.5E-10 TR=6E-9 XTF=0.3 VTF=6 ITF=5E-5 CJE=0.21E-12
+ MJE=0.33 VJE=0.7 ISC=5E-12 KF=2E-13 AF=1.4
.MODEL N1 NPN.tol IS=0.75 BF=.9
^^^
.MODEL N1 NPN.match IS=.03 BF=.03
^^^^^
What are these "extensions" for?

New to me...but here goes...

Don't know about match but I can guess the NPN.tol as I have
something similar in SS. My bet is that the NPN.tol IS=0.75 BF=.9
gives the amount to vary the base model in worst case and/or MC
runs. The "match" probably allows two of the same devices to be
varied by the associate value, e.g. one device's IS in 3% different
from another.

So for .tol, you think the variation in IS would be +/- 0.75, then,
right?
Click to expand...
I would guess that the values are 0.75 * nom, and 1.25 *nom

That's a reasonable guess. IT's a couple more keywords to google on,
anyway.

Odd how this syntax is similar to binning.
Click to expand...
In SS I use slightly different syntax. e.g. in SuperSpice.lib

..MODEL Virtual_SSWC_NPN_XS npn(Is=2 Xti=1 Eg=1 Vaf=1.25 Bf=2.5 Ne=1
Ise=2 Ikf=1
+ Xtb=1 Br=1 Nc=1 Isc=1 Ikr=1 Rc=500m Cjc=500m Mjc=1
+ Vjc=1 Fc=1 Cje=750m Mje=1 Vje=1 Tr=750m Tf=750m Itf=1
+ Vtf=1 Xtf=1 Rb=750m Re=750m Kf=500m _ss_comment=[These values multiply
respective params of nominal devices in wc runs if no other model
available])

..MODEL Virtual_SSWC_PNP_XW pnp(Is=500m Xti=1 Eg=1 Vaf=800m Bf=400m Ne=1
Ise=500m Ikf=1
+ Xtb=1 Br=1 Nc=1 Isc=1 Ikr=1 Rc=1.25 Cjc=1.25 Mjc=1
+ Vjc=1 Fc=1 Cje=1.25 Mje=1 Vje=1 Tr=1.25 Tf=1.25 Itf=1
+ Vtf=1 Xtf=1 Rb=1.25 Re=1.25 Kf=1.5 _ss_comment=[These values multiply
respective params of nominal devices])

For the worst case models.

The above are *defaults* for all biploars. However, In addition, you can
also specify a specific model variation spec for a particular device by
naming the model spec location in the actual model, e.g:

..MODEL Q2N2222_XN NPN(Is=31f Xti=3 Eg=1.11 Vaf=50 Bf=256 Ne=1.34 Ise=14f
Ikf=50m
+ Xtb=1.5 Br=3.175 Nc=2 Isc=750p Ikr=0 Rc=300m Cjc=7.3p Mjc=341.6m
+ Vjc=750m Fc=500m Cje=22p Mje=377m Vje=750m Tr=95n Tf=332p Itf=10
+ Vtf=30 Xtf=200 Re=300m Rb=30 Re=500m Kf=0
SSWC_FileName=[C:\SoftwareDevelopment\SuperSpice\Debug\System\Zetex.lib]
SSWC_ModelName=[Kevin_SSWC_NPN])

The SSWC_FileName and SSWC_Model points to where the spec is,
alternativly models can be made with names:

Q2N2222_XS
Q2N2222_XN
Q2N2222_XW

The weak and strong actual models are searched for first, then the
custom ones, then the default ones.

The idea being that even if the user has set nothing up, some reasonable
WC runs can be made automatically.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:07:56 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:20:09 -0500, Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net
wrote:


.MODEL N1 NPN IS=3.8E-16 BF=220 BR=0.7
+ ISE=1.8E-16 IKF=1.7E-2 NK=0.75 IKR=3E-2 NE=1.4 VAF=60
+ VAR=7 RC=63.4 RB=300 RE=19.7 XTB=1.17 XTI=5.4
+ TF=1.5E-10 TR=6E-9 XTF=0.3 VTF=6 ITF=5E-5 CJE=0.21E-12
+ MJE=0.33 VJE=0.7 ISC=5E-12 KF=2E-13 AF=1.4
.MODEL N1 NPN.tol IS=0.75 BF=.9
^^^
.MODEL N1 NPN.match IS=.03 BF=.03
^^^^^
What are these "extensions" for?

Here is the usual way Monte Carlo is done in a model file:

.MODEL N1 NPN (IS=5E-16 LOT/UNIFORM=90% DEV/GAUSS=3%)
+ (BF=220 LOT/UNIFORM=50% DEV/GAUSS=2%)
+ BR=0.7 NR=1...
Click to expand...
Damn, Jim. My PSpice user guide doesn't even get into it that much!

The SIMetrix simulation guide however covers a lot of possible ways
to set things up, like:

..MODEL NPN1 NPN IS=1.5E-15 BF={180*GAUSS(0.02)*UNIFL(0.5)}

says the same thing for BF.

I can't find the part that tells why to use breakout parts. What's
the deal on that?

I see that in PSpice, *it says* that for 2 parts with DEV=5%, one
can go up 5% while the other goes down 5%, but in the SIMetrix
manual it says they'll be within 5% of each other. Typo? Confusion?
Different implementations?

--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:06:56 -0500, Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net>
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:07:56 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:20:09 -0500, Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net
wrote:


.MODEL N1 NPN IS=3.8E-16 BF=220 BR=0.7
+ ISE=1.8E-16 IKF=1.7E-2 NK=0.75 IKR=3E-2 NE=1.4 VAF=60
+ VAR=7 RC=63.4 RB=300 RE=19.7 XTB=1.17 XTI=5.4
+ TF=1.5E-10 TR=6E-9 XTF=0.3 VTF=6 ITF=5E-5 CJE=0.21E-12
+ MJE=0.33 VJE=0.7 ISC=5E-12 KF=2E-13 AF=1.4
.MODEL N1 NPN.tol IS=0.75 BF=.9
^^^
.MODEL N1 NPN.match IS=.03 BF=.03
^^^^^
What are these "extensions" for?

Here is the usual way Monte Carlo is done in a model file:

.MODEL N1 NPN (IS=5E-16 LOT/UNIFORM=90% DEV/GAUSS=3%)
+ (BF=220 LOT/UNIFORM=50% DEV/GAUSS=2%)
+ BR=0.7 NR=1...


Damn, Jim. My PSpice user guide doesn't even get into it that much!

The SIMetrix simulation guide however covers a lot of possible ways
to set things up, like:

.MODEL NPN1 NPN IS=1.5E-15 BF={180*GAUSS(0.02)*UNIFL(0.5)}

says the same thing for BF.

I can't find the part that tells why to use breakout parts. What's
the deal on that?

I see that in PSpice, *it says* that for 2 parts with DEV=5%, one
can go up 5% while the other goes down 5%, but in the SIMetrix
manual it says they'll be within 5% of each other. Typo? Confusion?
Different implementations?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I wasn't very complete, I just plunked down a sample model from
Semtech, the ONLY foundry I use that expresses model variations in
Monte Carlo style, rather than with library corners.

I don't know what version you have, but I've posted, from my version
10.0....

Newsgroups: alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
Subject: Monte Carlo Models (from sci.electronics.cad -
MonteCarloPSpice.pdf
Message-ID: <8nhmr054e1o25aia0p85j8k68aveu8qg11@4ax.com>

The PDF posted is the model section from the PSpice reference manual,
version 10.0, showing notation for Monte Carlo parameter stepping in
PSpice device models.

I just received version 10.3, but won't have time to install until
next week... I'm in my usual crash and burn mode ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:24:10 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:06:56 -0500, Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:07:56 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:20:09 -0500, Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net
wrote:


.MODEL N1 NPN IS=3.8E-16 BF=220 BR=0.7
+ ISE=1.8E-16 IKF=1.7E-2 NK=0.75 IKR=3E-2 NE=1.4 VAF=60
+ VAR=7 RC=63.4 RB=300 RE=19.7 XTB=1.17 XTI=5.4
+ TF=1.5E-10 TR=6E-9 XTF=0.3 VTF=6 ITF=5E-5 CJE=0.21E-12
+ MJE=0.33 VJE=0.7 ISC=5E-12 KF=2E-13 AF=1.4
.MODEL N1 NPN.tol IS=0.75 BF=.9
^^^
.MODEL N1 NPN.match IS=.03 BF=.03
^^^^^
What are these "extensions" for?

Here is the usual way Monte Carlo is done in a model file:

.MODEL N1 NPN (IS=5E-16 LOT/UNIFORM=90% DEV/GAUSS=3%)
+ (BF=220 LOT/UNIFORM=50% DEV/GAUSS=2%)
+ BR=0.7 NR=1...


Damn, Jim. My PSpice user guide doesn't even get into it that much!

The SIMetrix simulation guide however covers a lot of possible ways
to set things up, like:

.MODEL NPN1 NPN IS=1.5E-15 BF={180*GAUSS(0.02)*UNIFL(0.5)}

says the same thing for BF.

I can't find the part that tells why to use breakout parts. What's
the deal on that?

I see that in PSpice, *it says* that for 2 parts with DEV=5%, one
can go up 5% while the other goes down 5%, but in the SIMetrix
manual it says they'll be within 5% of each other. Typo? Confusion?
Different implementations?

Sorry, I wasn't very complete, I just plunked down a sample model from
Semtech, the ONLY foundry I use that expresses model variations in
Monte Carlo style, rather than with library corners.

I don't know what version you have, but I've posted, from my version
10.0....

Newsgroups: alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
Subject: Monte Carlo Models (from sci.electronics.cad -
MonteCarloPSpice.pdf
Message-ID: <8nhmr054e1o25aia0p85j8k68aveu8qg11@4ax.com

The PDF posted is the model section from the PSpice reference manual,
version 10.0, showing notation for Monte Carlo parameter stepping in
PSpice device models.

I just received version 10.3, but won't have time to install until
next week... I'm in my usual crash and burn mode ;-)

That's also more than the 9.2 ref guide has buried under "Commands".
Click to expand...
Note that there was a separate user guide then and that's what I
checked before.

From your snip (nice of people to leave the security off the ANs and
such so we can do that :) ) I see they changed their wording to
*imply* that "DEV" specifies *relative to other components*, not
*relative to nominal*.

I don't trust their docs. They should write for the feds.

SIMetrix has a better WC/MC capability as I see it. Same for the
docs.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:37:22 -0500, Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net>
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:24:10 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]

From your snip (nice of people to leave the security off the ANs and
such so we can do that :) )
Click to expand...
Security in PDFs is pretty much meaningless as long as they allow
printing. Just print to a PostScript file, then run thru Distiller.

[snip]
I don't trust their docs. They should write for the feds.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately apps writers are often not USERS :-(

SIMetrix has a better WC/MC capability as I see it. Same for the
docs.
Click to expand...
I keep finding capabilities in PSpice that the support people don't
know about ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:10:38 +0000, Charles DH Williams
<C.D.H.Williams@exeter.ac.uk> wrote:

In article <iinmr054uhnp3f105tom2c57juuo61e8ke@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

Security in PDFs is pretty much meaningless as long as they allow
printing. Just print to a PostScript file, then run thru Distiller.

I belive that Distiller will refuse to do its thing
when presented with postscript derrived from an encrypted PDF. There
may be other tools out there of course...

Charles.
Click to expand...
I've not experienced that. I've had a few with security set, so I
couldn't do the standard "extract pages", but I could still print to
PS and then distill (v4).

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Jim Thompson wrote:
I keep finding capabilities in PSpice that the support people don't
know about ;-)

...Jim Thompson
No Jim,
Click to expand...
Why should that be? While the AEs work around the product all day, they
don't actually get to do much USING the product that much, so that, when
they get an actual design problem, they tend to over-prioritize it... :cool:

So, you do a lot more with it than they do...

Also, it helps that you push the envelope a lot!


--
Charlie
--
Edmondson Engineering
Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems
 
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