SPICE netlist to schematic?

C

Chaos Master

Guest
Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a schematic
(i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?
--
E-mail address is POTENTIAL spam bot FODDER. Please reply to the group!
 
Chaos Master wrote:
Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?
Click to expand...
Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
this?

However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.


Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:34:04 +0100, "Kevin Aylward"
<kevin@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Chaos Master wrote:
Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
this?
Click to expand...
I find I can do this relatively easily on paper for individual stages,
but it does get increasingly difficult the more components/stages
there are.
--

"Windows [n.], A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch
to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a four bit
microprocessor and produced by a two bit company."
 
Kevin Aylward engraved with a +2 athame:
Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
this?

However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.
Click to expand...
I'll try the eval version. That is, IF I manage to make that DAMNED license
manager for their program work(it just recognizes my license ID as 0).

--
"K-Mart PSPICE special $1.89 - includes models."
E-mail address is POTENTIAL spam bot FODDER. Please reply to the group!
 
Paul Burridge wrote:
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:34:04 +0100, "Kevin Aylward"
kevin@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Chaos Master wrote:
Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
this?

I find I can do this relatively easily on paper for individual stages,
but it does get increasingly difficult the more components/stages
there are.
Click to expand...
Note that I was referring to having a program do this automatically, not
a brain. A program needs quite a bit of knowledge built in, e.g. to
recognise a flip-flop, transistor cascodes etc.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
"Kevin Aylward" <kevin@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Chaos Master wrote:
Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
this?

However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.
Click to expand...
I've never really understood why it should be so difficult. Every
part, every node and pin is identified unambiguously. The two
relatively difficult aspects presumably are:

1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
cross-overs, etc.

2. Drawing 'correct' symbols, properly orientated, for the less
obvious components. (But, if that's too challenging, it would still be
very useful if all parts apart from discretes were just suitably
labeled rectangles.)

--
Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK
 
Terry Pinnell wrote:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevin@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Chaos Master wrote:
Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
this?

However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.

I've never really understood why it should be so difficult. Every
part, every node and pin is identified unambiguously. The two
relatively difficult aspects presumably are:
Click to expand...
Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.

1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
cross-overs, etc.
Click to expand...
Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
"knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp. The
combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant pattern
recognition.


Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.
Click to expand...
But you have?

1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
cross-overs, etc.


Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
"knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp. The
combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant pattern
recognition.
Click to expand...
Why would such a program need to tackle any of the irrelevant issues
you've raised? At the level I described, why does it need to recognise
and label the configuration of say a 555 plus a few Rs and Cs as 'a
monostable'? My assumption is that the user, studying the output,
might recognise it as such - but even that's not essential to build
it.

Presumably your next objection in support of your original
superficially-considered objection to the OP will be: 'Ahmm - Just
think about it. How could a program tell what size the components are
and where to bend the wires before soldering them?'

--
Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK
 
Terry Pinnell wrote:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.

But you have?

1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
cross-overs, etc.


Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
"knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
pattern recognition.

Why would such a program need to tackle any of the irrelevant issues
you've raised?
Click to expand...
You don't know what your talking about. Non of what I said is
irrelevant. What exactly do you think is irrelevant? To make sense a
circuit diagram has to be in a reasonable conventional format. Do you
want me to send you a 200 transistor netlist so that you can actually
try it in real life how hard it is to make a readable schematic? How do
you knoew what block is associated with what block. e.g. suppose you
have a PLL, consisting of a 100 transistor digital phase/frequency
detector, a 50 transistor VCO, a 50 transistor charge pump etc...How do
you think a program is going to automatically assemble all of this into
standard cong=figurations.

At the level I described, why does it need to recognise
and label the configuration of say a 555 plus a few Rs and Cs as 'a
monostable'?
Click to expand...
You out to lunch. Sure, an ittsy bittsy 555 timer circuit may well be
simple as a one off. You try it with a circuits that has any sort of
complexity. Its a huge task to go from a rats nest to a readable
schematic.

My assumption is that the user, studying the output,
might recognise it as such - but even that's not essential to build
it.

Presumably your next objection in support of your original
superficially
Click to expand...
Sorry, mate, you don't seem to have a clue. This is a really difficult
problem. If it were that easy, there would be lots of them out there.

-considered objection to the OP will be: 'Ahmm - Just
think about it. How could a program tell what size the components are
and where to bend the wires before soldering them?'
Click to expand...
Wake up dude. Go and actually try it before you make such daft cliams.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:42:30 +0100, "Kevin Aylward"
<kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Terry Pinnell wrote:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.

But you have?

1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
cross-overs, etc.


Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
"knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
pattern recognition.

[snip]
Kevin Aylward
[snip the ad that Kevin should, by convention, dash-dash-space]
Click to expand...

I have traced a few simple-minded IC's by "drawing" the (numbered)
devices into an array, the connecting them as I traced thru the metal.

I then used "rubber-banding" movements to bring some order to the
schematic.

All-in-all an enormous MANUAL task, typically taking a week...
financially viable because it was a patent infringement issue and I
was being paid "lawya" rates.

I think automating it would be worthy of a Nobel prize ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:42:30 +0100, "Kevin Aylward"
kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Terry Pinnell wrote:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.

But you have?

1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
cross-overs, etc.


Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
"knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
pattern recognition.

[snip]
Kevin Aylward
[snip the ad that Kevin should, by convention, dash-dash-space]

I have traced a few simple-minded IC's by "drawing" the (numbered)
devices into an array, the connecting them as I traced thru the metal.

I then used "rubber-banding" movements to bring some order to the
schematic.

All-in-all an enormous MANUAL task, typically taking a week...
financially viable because it was a patent infringement issue and I
was being paid "lawya" rates.
Click to expand...
Even just deciphering a spice .subckt can take significant effort.

I think automating it would be worthy of a Nobel prize ;-)
Click to expand...
Indeed. It has its uses. I bet http://www.concept.de/sv_index.html is an
arm and a leg, assuming it works. I haven't tried it.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Terry Pinnell wrote:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.

But you have?

1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
cross-overs, etc.


Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
"knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
pattern recognition.

Why would such a program need to tackle any of the irrelevant issues
you've raised?

You don't know what your talking about. Non of what I said is
irrelevant. What exactly do you think is irrelevant? To make sense a
circuit diagram has to be in a reasonable conventional format. Do you
want me to send you a 200 transistor netlist so that you can actually
try it in real life how hard it is to make a readable schematic? How do
you knoew what block is associated with what block. e.g. suppose you
have a PLL, consisting of a 100 transistor digital phase/frequency
detector, a 50 transistor VCO, a 50 transistor charge pump etc...How do
you think a program is going to automatically assemble all of this into
standard cong=figurations.

At the level I described, why does it need to recognise
and label the configuration of say a 555 plus a few Rs and Cs as 'a
monostable'?

You out to lunch. Sure, an ittsy bittsy 555 timer circuit may well be
simple as a one off. You try it with a circuits that has any sort of
complexity. Its a huge task to go from a rats nest to a readable
schematic.

My assumption is that the user, studying the output,
might recognise it as such - but even that's not essential to build
it.

Presumably your next objection in support of your original
superficially

Sorry, mate, you don't seem to have a clue. This is a really difficult
problem. If it were that easy, there would be lots of them out there.

-considered objection to the OP will be: 'Ahmm - Just
think about it. How could a program tell what size the components are
and where to bend the wires before soldering them?'

Wake up dude. Go and actually try it before you make such daft cliams.
Click to expand...
OK, it's plain that we're respectively talking about circuits at
different ends of the complexity spectrum. Maybe ChaosMaster is
working with designs on the scale you describe. I assumed we were
closer to *my* end of the scale.

FWIW I *have* tried it. Manually it's a chore, but I made useful
inroads. I expect the data processing necessary would increase at a
combinatorial rate. But nevertheless, given today's CPU speeds, IMO a
reasonably efficient program could break the back of what *I* would
regard as a fair size circuit.

--
Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK
 
Terry Pinnell wrote:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Terry Pinnell wrote:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.

But you have?

1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
cross-overs, etc.


Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
"knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
pattern recognition.

Why would such a program need to tackle any of the irrelevant issues
you've raised?

You don't know what your talking about. Non of what I said is
irrelevant. What exactly do you think is irrelevant? To make sense a
circuit diagram has to be in a reasonable conventional format. Do you
want me to send you a 200 transistor netlist so that you can actually
try it in real life how hard it is to make a readable schematic? How
do you knoew what block is associated with what block. e.g. suppose
you have a PLL, consisting of a 100 transistor digital
phase/frequency detector, a 50 transistor VCO, a 50 transistor
charge pump etc...How do you think a program is going to
automatically assemble all of this into standard cong=figurations.

At the level I described, why does it need to recognise
and label the configuration of say a 555 plus a few Rs and Cs as 'a
monostable'?

You out to lunch. Sure, an ittsy bittsy 555 timer circuit may well be
simple as a one off. You try it with a circuits that has any sort of
complexity. Its a huge task to go from a rats nest to a readable
schematic.

My assumption is that the user, studying the output,
might recognise it as such - but even that's not essential to build
it.

Presumably your next objection in support of your original
superficially

Sorry, mate, you don't seem to have a clue. This is a really
difficult problem. If it were that easy, there would be lots of them
out there.

-considered objection to the OP will be: 'Ahmm - Just
think about it. How could a program tell what size the components
are and where to bend the wires before soldering them?'

Wake up dude. Go and actually try it before you make such daft
cliams.

OK, it's plain that we're respectively talking about circuits at
different ends of the complexity spectrum. Maybe ChaosMaster is
working with designs on the scale you describe. I assumed we were
closer to *my* end of the scale.

FWIW I *have* tried it. Manually it's a chore, but I made useful
inroads. I expect the data processing necessary would increase at a
combinatorial rate. But nevertheless, given today's CPU speeds, IMO a
reasonably efficient program could break the back of what *I* would
regard as a fair size circuit.
Click to expand...

I am not even addressing the processing data rate. I don't think that
that is a big issue at all. I am only really addressing the *difficulty*
in actual *writing* the program, not its execution. The conscious mind
is an amazing thing, and we often forget or ignore just what it is
doing. When we look at a circuit, our brain generates an all in the oner
picture of what's going on. A program needs a good bit of intelligence
to "know" how a set of connections should look physically to reverse
enginerer a schematic.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:42:30 +0100, "Kevin Aylward"
kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:



Terry Pinnell wrote:


"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:



Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.


But you have?



1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
cross-overs, etc.



Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
"knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
pattern recognition.


[snip]


Kevin Aylward


[snip the ad that Kevin should, by convention, dash-dash-space]

I have traced a few simple-minded IC's by "drawing" the (numbered)
devices into an array, the connecting them as I traced thru the metal.

I then used "rubber-banding" movements to bring some order to the
schematic.

All-in-all an enormous MANUAL task, typically taking a week...
financially viable because it was a patent infringement issue and I
was being paid "lawya" rates.

I think automating it would be worthy of a Nobel prize ;-)

...Jim Thompson
Click to expand...
Hi Jim,
I usually describe this as the same order of complexity of creating a
PCB from a netlist, including auto-placement and auto-routing, without
the extra degrees of freedom of a multi-layer board. It isn't a simple
task just to lay it out and wire everything together, much less make it
understandable like Kevin is talking about.

And everyone knows that, even with the state of the art in PCB layout,
they still don't have a reliable auto-place, auto-route combination, and
there is a lot more money available for research on PCB layout than in
laying out a netlist on a schematic!

Charlie
Edmondson Engineering
Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems
 
In article <ARtfb.167$Ce2.92@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net>,
kevin@anasoft.co.uk says...
Chaos Master wrote:
Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
this?

However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.
Click to expand...
interesting. in case you didn't see it and didn't know about it, you'll
find links at the bottom of their pages to help you with your web design
projects. they're html/css/browser validators.

brs,
mike
Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Click to expand...
 
In article <ARtfb.167$Ce2.92@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net>,
kevin@anasoft.co.uk says...
Chaos Master wrote:
Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
this?

However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.


Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.



sorry, kevin. that reply was for terry. i waited for it to show up so i
Click to expand...
could cancel it.

brs,
mike
 
In article <23qvnvk8ug7q5eeevpj3o43kutkp95kub3@4ax.com>,
terrypinDELETE@dial.pipexTHIS.com says...
"Kevin Aylward" <kevin@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Chaos Master wrote:
Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
this?

However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.

I've never really understood why it should be so difficult. Every
part, every node and pin is identified unambiguously. The two
relatively difficult aspects presumably are:
Click to expand...
in case you didn't see it and didn't know about it, you'll
find links at the bottom of their pages to help you with your web design
projects. they're html/css/browser validators.

brs,
mike

1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
cross-overs, etc.

2. Drawing 'correct' symbols, properly orientated, for the less
obvious components. (But, if that's too challenging, it would still be
very useful if all parts apart from discretes were just suitably
labeled rectangles.)
Click to expand...
 
Try www.quintics.com

Paul Camilleri
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fkegb.611$b93.33@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
Terry Pinnell wrote:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Terry Pinnell wrote:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.

But you have?

1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
cross-overs, etc.


Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
"knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
pattern recognition.

Why would such a program need to tackle any of the irrelevant issues
you've raised?

You don't know what your talking about. Non of what I said is
irrelevant. What exactly do you think is irrelevant? To make sense a
circuit diagram has to be in a reasonable conventional format. Do you
want me to send you a 200 transistor netlist so that you can actually
try it in real life how hard it is to make a readable schematic? How
do you knoew what block is associated with what block. e.g. suppose
you have a PLL, consisting of a 100 transistor digital
phase/frequency detector, a 50 transistor VCO, a 50 transistor
charge pump etc...How do you think a program is going to
automatically assemble all of this into standard cong=figurations.

At the level I described, why does it need to recognise
and label the configuration of say a 555 plus a few Rs and Cs as 'a
monostable'?

You out to lunch. Sure, an ittsy bittsy 555 timer circuit may well be
simple as a one off. You try it with a circuits that has any sort of
complexity. Its a huge task to go from a rats nest to a readable
schematic.

My assumption is that the user, studying the output,
might recognise it as such - but even that's not essential to build
it.

Presumably your next objection in support of your original
superficially

Sorry, mate, you don't seem to have a clue. This is a really
difficult problem. If it were that easy, there would be lots of them
out there.

-considered objection to the OP will be: 'Ahmm - Just
think about it. How could a program tell what size the components
are and where to bend the wires before soldering them?'

Wake up dude. Go and actually try it before you make such daft
cliams.

OK, it's plain that we're respectively talking about circuits at
different ends of the complexity spectrum. Maybe ChaosMaster is
working with designs on the scale you describe. I assumed we were
closer to *my* end of the scale.

FWIW I *have* tried it. Manually it's a chore, but I made useful
inroads. I expect the data processing necessary would increase at a
combinatorial rate. But nevertheless, given today's CPU speeds, IMO a
reasonably efficient program could break the back of what *I* would
regard as a fair size circuit.


I am not even addressing the processing data rate. I don't think that
that is a big issue at all. I am only really addressing the *difficulty*
in actual *writing* the program, not its execution. The conscious mind
is an amazing thing, and we often forget or ignore just what it is
doing. When we look at a circuit, our brain generates an all in the oner
picture of what's going on. A program needs a good bit of intelligence
to "know" how a set of connections should look physically to reverse
enginerer a schematic.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Click to expand...
 
Paul Camilleri engraved with a +2 athame:
Try www.quintics.com
Click to expand...
BTW, Electronics Workbench 5.1.2 had a function for drawing a schematic from a
netlist. While it had various flaws(e.g. wrong connections on subcircuits), it
worked OK for circuits with transistors and resistors. I wonder if this function
is avaliable on Multisim?


--
Please reply in the group or ask for a valid e-mail/ICQ/MSN/YM/IRC address.
 
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:39:18 +0000 (UTC), "Paul Camilleri"
<paul.camilleri@btconnect.com> wrote:

Try www.quintics.com
Click to expand...
Any idea what the price/seat is for Quintics? $40? $400? $4,000?

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
 
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