something strange at the checkout...

[RichD]

At Holy Foods the other day, a strange occurrence -

I was doing the self-checkout, placed an apple on the
scale, but accidentally typed in the code for tomato.
It registered OK... \"tomato, 4 oz, 50 cents\"

Then two seconds later, it started beeping...
\"transaction rejected, call assistance\"
??

It knew the fruit wasn\'t a tomato! Or at least, behaved
that way. Is that possible, has the AI reached that point?

If so, it was presumably the overhead camera, not
the scanner in the register.


--
Rich

 

[Ed Lee]

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 2:12:41 PM UTC-8, RichD wrote:

At Holy Foods the other day, a strange occurrence -

I was doing the self-checkout, placed an apple on the
scale, but accidentally typed in the code for tomato.
It registered OK... \"tomato, 4 oz, 50 cents\"

Then two seconds later, it started beeping...
\"transaction rejected, call assistance\"
??

It knew the fruit wasn\'t a tomato! Or at least, behaved
that way. Is that possible, has the AI reached that point?

If so, it was presumably the overhead camera, not
the scanner in the register.

Yes, probably HI (Human Intelligence) watching the video from the camera.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2022-11-08, Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/11/2022 16:27, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 07/11/2022 22:12, RichD wrote:
At Holy Foods the other day, a strange occurrence -


It knew the fruit wasn\'t a tomato!  Or at least, behaved
that way.  Is that possible, has the AI reached that point?

If so, it was presumably the overhead camera, not
the scanner in the register.


4oz weight would be about 1 newton, and tomatoes don\'t grow on trees, so
it had to be an error.

Not necessarily. Beefsteak tomatoes can be ~500g each ~16 oz.

I don\'t think you understand the gravity of the situation.

https://www.shutterstock.com/image-illustration/clipart-illustration-isaac-newton-after-apple-44962

--
Jasen.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 08/11/2022 22:30, Jeff Layman wrote:

On 08/11/2022 17:25, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/11/2022 17:18, Ricky wrote:

Newton - trees...  give it some thought.

If you are ever in the UK Newtons birthplace Woolsthorpe Manor is a
National Trust property with the apple tree clone still alive there.
They had quite an impressive selection of science toys and demos there.

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/woolsthorpe-manor/features/discover-isaac-newton-at-woolsthorpe-manor

I think you\'ll find it\'s the original tree (or at least regrown from its
roots after the original was blown down 200 years ago).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolsthorpe_Manor#The_tree

It most certainly looked pretty old when I saw it there about 6 years ago.

It is old but I\'m not convinced it isn\'t a replanted clone of the
original apple tree. It might have regrown from the roots.

Several other locations have a piece of Newton\'s apple tree. eg.

https://www.york.ac.uk/physics-engineering-technology/about/newtons-apple-tree/

Do they still have a wide range of fun interactive science demos?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Jeff Layman]

On 09/11/2022 09:44, Martin Brown wrote:

On 08/11/2022 22:30, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 08/11/2022 17:25, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/11/2022 17:18, Ricky wrote:

Newton - trees...  give it some thought.

If you are ever in the UK Newtons birthplace Woolsthorpe Manor is a
National Trust property with the apple tree clone still alive there.
They had quite an impressive selection of science toys and demos there.

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/woolsthorpe-manor/features/discover-isaac-newton-at-woolsthorpe-manor

I think you\'ll find it\'s the original tree (or at least regrown from its
roots after the original was blown down 200 years ago).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolsthorpe_Manor#The_tree

It most certainly looked pretty old when I saw it there about 6 years ago.

It is old but I\'m not convinced it isn\'t a replanted clone of the
original apple tree. It might have regrown from the roots.

It did. See \"The real thing?\" here:
<https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/woolsthorpe-manor/features/the-story-of-our-apple-tree-at-woolsthorpe-manor>

Several other locations have a piece of Newton\'s apple tree. eg.

https://www.york.ac.uk/physics-engineering-technology/about/newtons-apple-tree/

Do they still have a wide range of fun interactive science demos?

No idea.

--

Jeff

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-08 22:19, Don Y wrote:

On 11/8/2022 1:45 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-08 19:28, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 6:28:13 AM UTC-8, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-08 12:58, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 08/11/2022 11:06, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 07/11/2022 22:12, RichD wrote:
At Holy Foods the other day, a strange occurrence -

I was doing the self-checkout, placed an apple on the
scale, but accidentally typed in the code for tomato.
It registered OK... \"tomato, 4 oz,  50 cents\"

Then two seconds later,  it started beeping...
\"transaction rejected, call assistance\"
??

It knew the fruit wasn\'t a tomato!  Or at least, behaved
that way.  Is that possible, has the AI reached that point?

If so, it was presumably the overhead camera, not
the scanner in the register.

Were they about the same weight? If the apple was considerably
heavier
than a tomato might be, the machine would know something is wrong.
snip

I don\'t think you\'re restricted to buying tomatoes singly
The red colour or lack of it is easy to detect

Green apples/tomatoes are still possible.  Although green tomatoes
are not too common in markets.

Anyway, don\'t you think they have some data/image feeds to some
monitors somewhere?  HI vs. AI.

Yes, they must have some type of camera and automated monitoring.

I think Ed\'s point was that it needn\'t be \"AI\" but, rather, can just
as easily be \"HI\" (Human Intelligence -- an employee watching over
the set of registers as he awaits being needed by a customer to
resolve a problem; gotta pay him even if he\'s standing around so
might as well have him looking at a composite screen of 6 video
feeds!)

That human is usually too busy to also look at the cameras efficiently.
And that\'s something where a human tires soon. There can be both, but I
think the idea of having a human is to spot errors in the AI.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Don Y]

On 11/9/2022 10:54 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2022-11-08 22:19, Don Y wrote:
On 11/8/2022 1:45 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-08 19:28, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 6:28:13 AM UTC-8, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-08 12:58, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 08/11/2022 11:06, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 07/11/2022 22:12, RichD wrote:
At Holy Foods the other day, a strange occurrence -

I was doing the self-checkout, placed an apple on the
scale, but accidentally typed in the code for tomato.
It registered OK... \"tomato, 4 oz,  50 cents\"

Then two seconds later,  it started beeping...
\"transaction rejected, call assistance\"
??

It knew the fruit wasn\'t a tomato!  Or at least, behaved
that way.  Is that possible, has the AI reached that point?

If so, it was presumably the overhead camera, not
the scanner in the register.

Were they about the same weight? If the apple was considerably heavier
than a tomato might be, the machine would know something is wrong.
snip

I don\'t think you\'re restricted to buying tomatoes singly
The red colour or lack of it is easy to detect

Green apples/tomatoes are still possible.  Although green tomatoes are not
too common in markets.

Anyway, don\'t you think they have some data/image feeds to some monitors
somewhere?  HI vs. AI.

Yes, they must have some type of camera and automated monitoring.

I think Ed\'s point was that it needn\'t be \"AI\" but, rather, can just
as easily be \"HI\" (Human Intelligence -- an employee watching over
the set of registers as he awaits being needed by a customer to
resolve a problem; gotta pay him even if he\'s standing around so
might as well have him looking at a composite screen of 6 video
feeds!)
That human is usually too busy to also look at the cameras efficiently. And
that\'s something where a human tires soon. There can be both, but I think the
idea of having a human is to spot errors in the AI.

He doesn\'t have to be efficient. All he has to do is make the
customer THINK they are being watched.

What role the guy standing by the exit watching folks walk
out with bags of stuff? He\'s not checking MY bag against
my receipt (like Costco, Sam\'s Club). Rather, he\'s checking
to see if anyone looks nervous or out-of-place.

Likewise, the prominent displays of CCTV feeds, overhead:
\"We\'re watching you!\"

The self-checks, here, have humans largely idle -- except for
Costco where the humans (2 or more per 6 kiosks) get involved
in expediting the checkout of customers (in which case, the
possibility of fraud decreases as employees are doing the work).

Walmart has a person per *3* kiosks. Grocers are 1 per 6.
All usually just standing around waiting for something
\"interesting\" to happen.

Amusingly, Walmart\'s automation is the least \"enforcing\"
(it doesn\'t require you to place your scanned items on a scale
which could verify their expected weights). I would assume
Walmart\'s clientele would be the most likely to commit fraud.

And, there are numerous ways to cheat -- for someone determined
to do so -- that automation hasn\'t even thought of addressing.
\"Locks keep honest people honest\"