Something others may find useful (mains leds and dimmers)

[default]

I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:23:28 -0500, default <default@defaulter.net>
wrote:

I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

(1) Some implementations of LED light PSU's won't tolerate
conventional dimmers.

(2) I solved the problem recently by installing a dozen of these...

<https://www.snappower.com/>

thorough out the house. Nice!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts.

 

[default]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:14:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:23:28 -0500, default <default@defaulter.net
wrote:

I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

(1) Some implementations of LED light PSU's won't tolerate
conventional dimmers.

(2) I solved the problem recently by installing a dozen of these...

https://www.snappower.com/

thorough out the house. Nice!

...Jim Thompson

Do they have a connection to the power pins?

Unfortunately, no outlets in the living room aren't already blocked by
furniture so they wouldn't do much for me.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 13:46:18 -0500, default <default@defaulter.net>
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:14:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:23:28 -0500, default <default@defaulter.net
wrote:

I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

(1) Some implementations of LED light PSU's won't tolerate
conventional dimmers.

(2) I solved the problem recently by installing a dozen of these...

https://www.snappower.com/

thorough out the house. Nice!

...Jim Thompson

Do they have a connection to the power pins?

Yes. Copper fingers contact the outlet screws when you replace the
normal cover plate.

Unfortunately, no outlets in the living room aren't already blocked by
furniture so they wouldn't do much for me.

I solved that problem... bought a couple of "old work" boxes and
placed them where I wanted.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts.

 

[Bill Gill]

On 11/29/2017 8:23 AM, default wrote:

I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

And you are always going to own this house? What about other
people who may live in the house in the future?

Bill

 

[default]

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:05:46 -0600, Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net>
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 8:23 AM, default wrote:
I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

And you are always going to own this house? What about other
people who may live in the house in the future?

Bill

Worry about it if and when I sell. Been here 20+ years and the
mortgage is paid off and there's no incentive to leave. The land the
house is on is worth 30X what the house is worth too...

Someone would have to stick their finger in the lamp socket, to get
what is a non-lethal current, presuming they'd be grounded also.

It could happen, but I won't worry about it.

 

[rickman]

default wrote on 11/30/2017 11:51 AM:

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:05:46 -0600, Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 8:23 AM, default wrote:
I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

And you are always going to own this house? What about other
people who may live in the house in the future?

Bill

Worry about it if and when I sell. Been here 20+ years and the
mortgage is paid off and there's no incentive to leave. The land the
house is on is worth 30X what the house is worth too...

Someone would have to stick their finger in the lamp socket, to get
what is a non-lethal current, presuming they'd be grounded also.

It could happen, but I won't worry about it.

Just the other day when I was visiting a friend in Tennessee she had a
fixture with a broken bulb base. I used a wine cork to get it out, but I've
seen others do this with a butter knife. In fact decades ago my manager at
a restaurant taught me to use a butter knife with a cloth wrapped around the
tip to do this. The requirement to make this safe is to turn *off* the
switch. What happens if you die before you sell the house. A neighbor
comes over to help your wife and is severely injured getting a broken bulb
socket out. Your wife is sued and loses the house... oh, of course, then
she won't have to worry about it anymore.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[default]

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:51:04 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 11/30/2017 11:51 AM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:05:46 -0600, Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 8:23 AM, default wrote:
I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

And you are always going to own this house? What about other
people who may live in the house in the future?

Bill

Worry about it if and when I sell. Been here 20+ years and the
mortgage is paid off and there's no incentive to leave. The land the
house is on is worth 30X what the house is worth too...

Someone would have to stick their finger in the lamp socket, to get
what is a non-lethal current, presuming they'd be grounded also.

It could happen, but I won't worry about it.

Just the other day when I was visiting a friend in Tennessee she had a
fixture with a broken bulb base. I used a wine cork to get it out, but I've
seen others do this with a butter knife. In fact decades ago my manager at
a restaurant taught me to use a butter knife with a cloth wrapped around the
tip to do this. The requirement to make this safe is to turn *off* the
switch. What happens if you die before you sell the house. A neighbor
comes over to help your wife and is severely injured getting a broken bulb
socket out. Your wife is sued and loses the house... oh, of course, then
she won't have to worry about it anymore.

What happens if thermonuclear war breaks out? What if, what if.

Life is full of traps but this one isn't high on my list, I worry much
more about the boiler at work where they remove the safety valves
because "valves may harbor bacteria and contaminate the product." The
boiler holds about 5 gallons of water and depends on water flow to
keep the 50 KW heater from flashing the water to steam and
over-pressuring the system. I designed the thermostat - it takes ~6
minutes for the water to make one circuit of the piping, and the inlet
can't fall below 98C. I wouldn't sign-off until there were safety
valves on the inlet and outlet, but the last time I was there the
valves are gone...

I've heard of people using potatoes to remove broken lamps too.

It is easy to install ground fault circuit breakers in the service
panel.

 

[rickman]

default wrote on 11/30/2017 4:57 PM:

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:51:04 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 11/30/2017 11:51 AM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:05:46 -0600, Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 8:23 AM, default wrote:
I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

And you are always going to own this house? What about other
people who may live in the house in the future?

Bill

Worry about it if and when I sell. Been here 20+ years and the
mortgage is paid off and there's no incentive to leave. The land the
house is on is worth 30X what the house is worth too...

Someone would have to stick their finger in the lamp socket, to get
what is a non-lethal current, presuming they'd be grounded also.

It could happen, but I won't worry about it.

Just the other day when I was visiting a friend in Tennessee she had a
fixture with a broken bulb base. I used a wine cork to get it out, but I've
seen others do this with a butter knife. In fact decades ago my manager at
a restaurant taught me to use a butter knife with a cloth wrapped around the
tip to do this. The requirement to make this safe is to turn *off* the
switch. What happens if you die before you sell the house. A neighbor
comes over to help your wife and is severely injured getting a broken bulb
socket out. Your wife is sued and loses the house... oh, of course, then
she won't have to worry about it anymore.

What happens if thermonuclear war breaks out? What if, what if.

Life is full of traps but this one isn't high on my list, I worry much
more about the boiler at work where they remove the safety valves
because "valves may harbor bacteria and contaminate the product." The
boiler holds about 5 gallons of water and depends on water flow to
keep the 50 KW heater from flashing the water to steam and
over-pressuring the system. I designed the thermostat - it takes ~6
minutes for the water to make one circuit of the piping, and the inlet
can't fall below 98C. I wouldn't sign-off until there were safety
valves on the inlet and outlet, but the last time I was there the
valves are gone...

I've heard of people using potatoes to remove broken lamps too.

It is easy to install ground fault circuit breakers in the service
panel.

I don't care, it's not my house and not my wife. Sounds like you don't care
much about them either.

Funny how different you are at work and at home.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[default]

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:37:56 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 11/30/2017 4:57 PM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:51:04 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 11/30/2017 11:51 AM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:05:46 -0600, Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 8:23 AM, default wrote:
I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

And you are always going to own this house? What about other
people who may live in the house in the future?

Bill

Worry about it if and when I sell. Been here 20+ years and the
mortgage is paid off and there's no incentive to leave. The land the
house is on is worth 30X what the house is worth too...

Someone would have to stick their finger in the lamp socket, to get
what is a non-lethal current, presuming they'd be grounded also.

It could happen, but I won't worry about it.

Just the other day when I was visiting a friend in Tennessee she had a
fixture with a broken bulb base. I used a wine cork to get it out, but I've
seen others do this with a butter knife. In fact decades ago my manager at
a restaurant taught me to use a butter knife with a cloth wrapped around the
tip to do this. The requirement to make this safe is to turn *off* the
switch. What happens if you die before you sell the house. A neighbor
comes over to help your wife and is severely injured getting a broken bulb
socket out. Your wife is sued and loses the house... oh, of course, then
she won't have to worry about it anymore.

What happens if thermonuclear war breaks out? What if, what if.

Life is full of traps but this one isn't high on my list, I worry much
more about the boiler at work where they remove the safety valves
because "valves may harbor bacteria and contaminate the product." The
boiler holds about 5 gallons of water and depends on water flow to
keep the 50 KW heater from flashing the water to steam and
over-pressuring the system. I designed the thermostat - it takes ~6
minutes for the water to make one circuit of the piping, and the inlet
can't fall below 98C. I wouldn't sign-off until there were safety
valves on the inlet and outlet, but the last time I was there the
valves are gone...

I've heard of people using potatoes to remove broken lamps too.

It is easy to install ground fault circuit breakers in the service
panel.

I don't care, it's not my house and not my wife. Sounds like you don't care
much about them either.

Funny how different you are at work and at home.

Oh come on... My wife (a scientist) is knowledgeable about
electricity. I doubt there is anyone that I know who is stupid enough
to stick a finger in a lamp socket. And that's what it would take to
get a current limited shock. Now, I'm not that familiar with your
acquaintances...

At work it's a different story. The procedures they use are so
complex that I wish they'd start using check lists. In the case of
the boiler I mentioned, there's a separate disconnect, and circuit
breaker, for the circulating pump and check valves isolate the water
loop from the water supply. Just the expansion of the water with
heating is already pressuring the system - and the stainless steel
piping is taking the brunt of the pressure. They use it every day,
not every 2+ years the bulb will last if left on 24/7, and the people
using it are not the brightest.

The danger, as I see it, is if someone were to start using glass
envelope incandescent lamps and did actually break one off in the
socket, and tried to remove it with a metal tool, and was standing on
a conductive surface barefoot, when the light was turned off they may
get a non-lethal shock, fall off the conductive surface and injure
themselves on the way down.

It could happen just that way. Then too, I might be standing in a
Kansas cornfield, being harassed by a Great White shark, while
simultaneously struck by lightening and winning the lottery. I mean
it could happen....

I did get a GFI limited shock once. Coffee maker in a hotel bathroom
and I was barefoot. I thought I'd filch a cup of coffee before it was
done. (my home coffee maker has a valve built in so it allows that
without any loss) In the case of the hotel's coffee maker it doesn't
have a valve so enough water dripped down into the hot plate and
managed to get to the heater and I got a pretty good zap, but didn't
drop the carafe, so I figure that changing a lamp will be reasonably
safe.

I know you like to hear "don't compromise safety," but the truth is,
we make those compromises every day and do it willingly and without
thinking. I worked power line construction, industrial construction,
railroad construction, and was in the Navy with high voltages in small
metal rooms filled with 40 KW transmitters, when I wasn't building 100
KV Tesla coils... Compromising safety is called risk management in the
real world. You reduce risk to the lowest practical value, not the
lowest possible value. Same thing everywhere around you - airlines
could conceivably design escape pods but you'd still die in a take off
or landing mishap.

The best safety feature you have is your mind.

If you really think you shouldn't compromise safety, don't get out of
bed, and pray that a tornado doesn't hit - you'll still die of muscle
atrophy or diabetes or some other malady caused by staying safe.

You like to argue - me too. Debate for the sake of the mental
challenge - I'd derive the same amount of pleasure taking the opposite
viewpoint and arguing it. It is a strength and a weakness.

 

[rickman]

default wrote on 12/1/2017 10:00 AM:

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:37:56 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 11/30/2017 4:57 PM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:51:04 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 11/30/2017 11:51 AM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:05:46 -0600, Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 8:23 AM, default wrote:
I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

And you are always going to own this house? What about other
people who may live in the house in the future?

Bill

Worry about it if and when I sell. Been here 20+ years and the
mortgage is paid off and there's no incentive to leave. The land the
house is on is worth 30X what the house is worth too...

Someone would have to stick their finger in the lamp socket, to get
what is a non-lethal current, presuming they'd be grounded also.

It could happen, but I won't worry about it.

Just the other day when I was visiting a friend in Tennessee she had a
fixture with a broken bulb base. I used a wine cork to get it out, but I've
seen others do this with a butter knife. In fact decades ago my manager at
a restaurant taught me to use a butter knife with a cloth wrapped around the
tip to do this. The requirement to make this safe is to turn *off* the
switch. What happens if you die before you sell the house. A neighbor
comes over to help your wife and is severely injured getting a broken bulb
socket out. Your wife is sued and loses the house... oh, of course, then
she won't have to worry about it anymore.

What happens if thermonuclear war breaks out? What if, what if.

Life is full of traps but this one isn't high on my list, I worry much
more about the boiler at work where they remove the safety valves
because "valves may harbor bacteria and contaminate the product." The
boiler holds about 5 gallons of water and depends on water flow to
keep the 50 KW heater from flashing the water to steam and
over-pressuring the system. I designed the thermostat - it takes ~6
minutes for the water to make one circuit of the piping, and the inlet
can't fall below 98C. I wouldn't sign-off until there were safety
valves on the inlet and outlet, but the last time I was there the
valves are gone...

I've heard of people using potatoes to remove broken lamps too.

It is easy to install ground fault circuit breakers in the service
panel.

I don't care, it's not my house and not my wife. Sounds like you don't care
much about them either.

Funny how different you are at work and at home.

Oh come on... My wife (a scientist) is knowledgeable about
electricity. I doubt there is anyone that I know who is stupid enough
to stick a finger in a lamp socket. And that's what it would take to
get a current limited shock. Now, I'm not that familiar with your
acquaintances...

At work it's a different story. The procedures they use are so
complex that I wish they'd start using check lists. In the case of
the boiler I mentioned, there's a separate disconnect, and circuit
breaker, for the circulating pump and check valves isolate the water
loop from the water supply. Just the expansion of the water with
heating is already pressuring the system - and the stainless steel
piping is taking the brunt of the pressure. They use it every day,
not every 2+ years the bulb will last if left on 24/7, and the people
using it are not the brightest.

The danger, as I see it, is if someone were to start using glass
envelope incandescent lamps and did actually break one off in the
socket, and tried to remove it with a metal tool, and was standing on
a conductive surface barefoot, when the light was turned off they may
get a non-lethal shock, fall off the conductive surface and injure
themselves on the way down.

It could happen just that way. Then too, I might be standing in a
Kansas cornfield, being harassed by a Great White shark, while
simultaneously struck by lightening and winning the lottery. I mean
it could happen....

I did get a GFI limited shock once. Coffee maker in a hotel bathroom
and I was barefoot. I thought I'd filch a cup of coffee before it was
done. (my home coffee maker has a valve built in so it allows that
without any loss) In the case of the hotel's coffee maker it doesn't
have a valve so enough water dripped down into the hot plate and
managed to get to the heater and I got a pretty good zap, but didn't
drop the carafe, so I figure that changing a lamp will be reasonably
safe.

I know you like to hear "don't compromise safety," but the truth is,
we make those compromises every day and do it willingly and without
thinking. I worked power line construction, industrial construction,
railroad construction, and was in the Navy with high voltages in small
metal rooms filled with 40 KW transmitters, when I wasn't building 100
KV Tesla coils... Compromising safety is called risk management in the
real world. You reduce risk to the lowest practical value, not the
lowest possible value. Same thing everywhere around you - airlines
could conceivably design escape pods but you'd still die in a take off
or landing mishap.

The best safety feature you have is your mind.

If you really think you shouldn't compromise safety, don't get out of
bed, and pray that a tornado doesn't hit - you'll still die of muscle
atrophy or diabetes or some other malady caused by staying safe.

You like to argue - me too. Debate for the sake of the mental
challenge - I'd derive the same amount of pleasure taking the opposite
viewpoint and arguing it. It is a strength and a weakness.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. There is a reason why we have wiring
codes. I can't make you follow them, but if anyone is ever hurt by this
circuit you will be responsible. I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining the
facts. You want to believe your own set of facts and are happy to involve
emotional nonsense to try to make a point. Whatever.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[default]

On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 19:45:06 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 12/1/2017 10:00 AM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:37:56 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 11/30/2017 4:57 PM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:51:04 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 11/30/2017 11:51 AM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:05:46 -0600, Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 8:23 AM, default wrote:
I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

And you are always going to own this house? What about other
people who may live in the house in the future?

Bill

Worry about it if and when I sell. Been here 20+ years and the
mortgage is paid off and there's no incentive to leave. The land the
house is on is worth 30X what the house is worth too...

Someone would have to stick their finger in the lamp socket, to get
what is a non-lethal current, presuming they'd be grounded also.

It could happen, but I won't worry about it.

Just the other day when I was visiting a friend in Tennessee she had a
fixture with a broken bulb base. I used a wine cork to get it out, but I've
seen others do this with a butter knife. In fact decades ago my manager at
a restaurant taught me to use a butter knife with a cloth wrapped around the
tip to do this. The requirement to make this safe is to turn *off* the
switch. What happens if you die before you sell the house. A neighbor
comes over to help your wife and is severely injured getting a broken bulb
socket out. Your wife is sued and loses the house... oh, of course, then
she won't have to worry about it anymore.

What happens if thermonuclear war breaks out? What if, what if.

Life is full of traps but this one isn't high on my list, I worry much
more about the boiler at work where they remove the safety valves
because "valves may harbor bacteria and contaminate the product." The
boiler holds about 5 gallons of water and depends on water flow to
keep the 50 KW heater from flashing the water to steam and
over-pressuring the system. I designed the thermostat - it takes ~6
minutes for the water to make one circuit of the piping, and the inlet
can't fall below 98C. I wouldn't sign-off until there were safety
valves on the inlet and outlet, but the last time I was there the
valves are gone...

I've heard of people using potatoes to remove broken lamps too.

It is easy to install ground fault circuit breakers in the service
panel.

I don't care, it's not my house and not my wife. Sounds like you don't care
much about them either.

Funny how different you are at work and at home.

Oh come on... My wife (a scientist) is knowledgeable about
electricity. I doubt there is anyone that I know who is stupid enough
to stick a finger in a lamp socket. And that's what it would take to
get a current limited shock. Now, I'm not that familiar with your
acquaintances...

At work it's a different story. The procedures they use are so
complex that I wish they'd start using check lists. In the case of
the boiler I mentioned, there's a separate disconnect, and circuit
breaker, for the circulating pump and check valves isolate the water
loop from the water supply. Just the expansion of the water with
heating is already pressuring the system - and the stainless steel
piping is taking the brunt of the pressure. They use it every day,
not every 2+ years the bulb will last if left on 24/7, and the people
using it are not the brightest.

The danger, as I see it, is if someone were to start using glass
envelope incandescent lamps and did actually break one off in the
socket, and tried to remove it with a metal tool, and was standing on
a conductive surface barefoot, when the light was turned off they may
get a non-lethal shock, fall off the conductive surface and injure
themselves on the way down.

It could happen just that way. Then too, I might be standing in a
Kansas cornfield, being harassed by a Great White shark, while
simultaneously struck by lightening and winning the lottery. I mean
it could happen....

I did get a GFI limited shock once. Coffee maker in a hotel bathroom
and I was barefoot. I thought I'd filch a cup of coffee before it was
done. (my home coffee maker has a valve built in so it allows that
without any loss) In the case of the hotel's coffee maker it doesn't
have a valve so enough water dripped down into the hot plate and
managed to get to the heater and I got a pretty good zap, but didn't
drop the carafe, so I figure that changing a lamp will be reasonably
safe.

I know you like to hear "don't compromise safety," but the truth is,
we make those compromises every day and do it willingly and without
thinking. I worked power line construction, industrial construction,
railroad construction, and was in the Navy with high voltages in small
metal rooms filled with 40 KW transmitters, when I wasn't building 100
KV Tesla coils... Compromising safety is called risk management in the
real world. You reduce risk to the lowest practical value, not the
lowest possible value. Same thing everywhere around you - airlines
could conceivably design escape pods but you'd still die in a take off
or landing mishap.

The best safety feature you have is your mind.

If you really think you shouldn't compromise safety, don't get out of
bed, and pray that a tornado doesn't hit - you'll still die of muscle
atrophy or diabetes or some other malady caused by staying safe.

You like to argue - me too. Debate for the sake of the mental
challenge - I'd derive the same amount of pleasure taking the opposite
viewpoint and arguing it. It is a strength and a weakness.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. There is a reason why we have wiring
codes. I can't make you follow them, but if anyone is ever hurt by this
circuit you will be responsible. I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining the
facts. You want to believe your own set of facts and are happy to involve
emotional nonsense to try to make a point. Whatever.

I think the wiring codes are a compromise and allow morons to call
themselves electricians. For instance, I had a light switch installed
at the top of an attic stair. (one of those pull-down trap door
thingees) When the house was re-wired for 3 - wire ground (very old
house) an electrician moved it because he said the code didn't allow
light switches to be mounted so close to the floor. He promptly moved
it to the only other good mounting place away from the stairs though
and made things less safe because now you had to fumble around
searching for it in the dark, or climb up holding a flashlight.

I think the justification for the switch height was so you couldn't
accidentally kick it or something. But in this case there's be no way
to kick or brush against it unless you could levitate in the vicinity
because the only other choice was to fall through the trap door. There
was no floor, to speak of, in the area.

I'm guessing you are obstreperous by nature and probably very hard to
live with.

 

[rickman]

default wrote on 12/1/2017 8:39 PM:

On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 19:45:06 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 12/1/2017 10:00 AM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:37:56 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 11/30/2017 4:57 PM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:51:04 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 11/30/2017 11:51 AM:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:05:46 -0600, Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 8:23 AM, default wrote:
I got some el-cheapo "Circuit On Board" style retro looking clear 4
watt led lamps to replace the 4 - 40 watt "designer" bulbs in the
overhead light in my bedroom. 160 watts down to 16 watts...

But the light is too bright most of the time. They are supposed to be
dimmable LEDs, but that probably depends more on the dimmer than the
led from my experience with other bulbs around the house. Anyhow
these aren't.

I want/need the dimmer so I can gather up my clothes and make an exit
while my wife sleeps. I got to tinkering with it and found that a .22
microfarad 275VAC film style capacitor in series with all 4 bulbs is
just about the perfect amount of light for my purposes. The only
hassle was finding a 3 position center-off toggle switch that's
designed to replace the ordinary toggles used in the house. Hubble
makes one that set me back $8, versus the ordinary $1.79 light
switches...

I figure the .22 uf cap limits the dissipation to ~1 watt (ignoring
power factor) so I'll probably do it again to turn my main living room
light into a night-light with something like a .05 uf or so and just
wire it across the switch so when it is "off" it drops to a night
light.

I'm sure the UL people would beget bovine offspring at the thought of
that, for the shock hazard when changing bulbs (every 10K hours?) but
it's my own house and I know enough to keep safe.

And you are always going to own this house? What about other
people who may live in the house in the future?

Bill

Worry about it if and when I sell. Been here 20+ years and the
mortgage is paid off and there's no incentive to leave. The land the
house is on is worth 30X what the house is worth too...

Someone would have to stick their finger in the lamp socket, to get
what is a non-lethal current, presuming they'd be grounded also.

It could happen, but I won't worry about it.

Just the other day when I was visiting a friend in Tennessee she had a
fixture with a broken bulb base. I used a wine cork to get it out, but I've
seen others do this with a butter knife. In fact decades ago my manager at
a restaurant taught me to use a butter knife with a cloth wrapped around the
tip to do this. The requirement to make this safe is to turn *off* the
switch. What happens if you die before you sell the house. A neighbor
comes over to help your wife and is severely injured getting a broken bulb
socket out. Your wife is sued and loses the house... oh, of course, then
she won't have to worry about it anymore.

What happens if thermonuclear war breaks out? What if, what if.

Life is full of traps but this one isn't high on my list, I worry much
more about the boiler at work where they remove the safety valves
because "valves may harbor bacteria and contaminate the product." The
boiler holds about 5 gallons of water and depends on water flow to
keep the 50 KW heater from flashing the water to steam and
over-pressuring the system. I designed the thermostat - it takes ~6
minutes for the water to make one circuit of the piping, and the inlet
can't fall below 98C. I wouldn't sign-off until there were safety
valves on the inlet and outlet, but the last time I was there the
valves are gone...

I've heard of people using potatoes to remove broken lamps too.

It is easy to install ground fault circuit breakers in the service
panel.

I don't care, it's not my house and not my wife. Sounds like you don't care
much about them either.

Funny how different you are at work and at home.

Oh come on... My wife (a scientist) is knowledgeable about
electricity. I doubt there is anyone that I know who is stupid enough
to stick a finger in a lamp socket. And that's what it would take to
get a current limited shock. Now, I'm not that familiar with your
acquaintances...

At work it's a different story. The procedures they use are so
complex that I wish they'd start using check lists. In the case of
the boiler I mentioned, there's a separate disconnect, and circuit
breaker, for the circulating pump and check valves isolate the water
loop from the water supply. Just the expansion of the water with
heating is already pressuring the system - and the stainless steel
piping is taking the brunt of the pressure. They use it every day,
not every 2+ years the bulb will last if left on 24/7, and the people
using it are not the brightest.

The danger, as I see it, is if someone were to start using glass
envelope incandescent lamps and did actually break one off in the
socket, and tried to remove it with a metal tool, and was standing on
a conductive surface barefoot, when the light was turned off they may
get a non-lethal shock, fall off the conductive surface and injure
themselves on the way down.

It could happen just that way. Then too, I might be standing in a
Kansas cornfield, being harassed by a Great White shark, while
simultaneously struck by lightening and winning the lottery. I mean
it could happen....

I did get a GFI limited shock once. Coffee maker in a hotel bathroom
and I was barefoot. I thought I'd filch a cup of coffee before it was
done. (my home coffee maker has a valve built in so it allows that
without any loss) In the case of the hotel's coffee maker it doesn't
have a valve so enough water dripped down into the hot plate and
managed to get to the heater and I got a pretty good zap, but didn't
drop the carafe, so I figure that changing a lamp will be reasonably
safe.

I know you like to hear "don't compromise safety," but the truth is,
we make those compromises every day and do it willingly and without
thinking. I worked power line construction, industrial construction,
railroad construction, and was in the Navy with high voltages in small
metal rooms filled with 40 KW transmitters, when I wasn't building 100
KV Tesla coils... Compromising safety is called risk management in the
real world. You reduce risk to the lowest practical value, not the
lowest possible value. Same thing everywhere around you - airlines
could conceivably design escape pods but you'd still die in a take off
or landing mishap.

The best safety feature you have is your mind.

If you really think you shouldn't compromise safety, don't get out of
bed, and pray that a tornado doesn't hit - you'll still die of muscle
atrophy or diabetes or some other malady caused by staying safe.

You like to argue - me too. Debate for the sake of the mental
challenge - I'd derive the same amount of pleasure taking the opposite
viewpoint and arguing it. It is a strength and a weakness.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. There is a reason why we have wiring
codes. I can't make you follow them, but if anyone is ever hurt by this
circuit you will be responsible. I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining the
facts. You want to believe your own set of facts and are happy to involve
emotional nonsense to try to make a point. Whatever.

I think the wiring codes are a compromise and allow morons to call
themselves electricians. For instance, I had a light switch installed
at the top of an attic stair. (one of those pull-down trap door
thingees) When the house was re-wired for 3 - wire ground (very old
house) an electrician moved it because he said the code didn't allow
light switches to be mounted so close to the floor. He promptly moved
it to the only other good mounting place away from the stairs though
and made things less safe because now you had to fumble around
searching for it in the dark, or climb up holding a flashlight.

I think the justification for the switch height was so you couldn't
accidentally kick it or something. But in this case there's be no way
to kick or brush against it unless you could levitate in the vicinity
because the only other choice was to fall through the trap door. There
was no floor, to speak of, in the area.

I'm guessing you are obstreperous by nature and probably very hard to
live with.

No, I don't like being controlled and you seem to be the same. Where we
differ is that you have all manner of reasons for ignoring safety
regulations. Your attic light has nothing whatsoever to do with the lack of
safety of your ceiling light kludge. It's your house and you are
responsible for any harm that comes to anyone because of your reckless
disregard for simple safety codes.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998