Solar Grid Connect 1kW questions

[AB]

Hi,
Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes to re-coup your money
on one of these systems ?
The sales pitch looks fabulous but after getting the calculator out it
doesn't seem so good.
Apart from the philsophical / green reasons for going solar , does the $$$
add up ??

Where I live they are being advertised for ~ $4000 + $440 for a new meter &
connection to the Grid ( after the govt $8000 rebates etc ) so about $4400
total installed cost

It seems pretty hard to calculate how much I would save per quarter on my
bills , so many variables of sunny days , overcast days , altitude , power
usage etc etc

At a guess of $50 per quarter savings on electricity , its going to take 22
years to break even.......and if it was $100 per quarter , then 11 years.
Is this correct or am I missing something ????

With *only* a 1kW system it seems unlikely to be putting anything much back
into the grid , even if the power company will pay me 44c for it ????

Any real world experience anyone

Regards
Andrew

 

[TonyS]

AB wrote:

Hi,
Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes to re-coup your money
on one of these systems ?
The sales pitch looks fabulous but after getting the calculator out it
doesn't seem so good.
Apart from the philsophical / green reasons for going solar , does the $$$
add up ??

Where I live they are being advertised for ~ $4000 + $440 for a new meter &
connection to the Grid ( after the govt $8000 rebates etc ) so about $4400
total installed cost

It seems pretty hard to calculate how much I would save per quarter on my
bills , so many variables of sunny days , overcast days , altitude , power
usage etc etc

At a guess of $50 per quarter savings on electricity , its going to take 22
years to break even.......and if it was $100 per quarter , then 11 years.
Is this correct or am I missing something ????

With *only* a 1kW system it seems unlikely to be putting anything much back
into the grid , even if the power company will pay me 44c for it ????

Any real world experience anyone

Regards
Andrew

Have a look at

http://scarborofun.com/solar.html

It's a bit messy but should give you a basic idea.

The system has cost me $2750 + $655 for the new meter.
The $8000 rebate and about $560 for RECs have to be added to get the total cost.
In WA the cost per kWh will rise in July to 17.7c.
Don't know how much I will be able to charge for my feed in after 30.6.09.

Tony

 

[terryc]

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:38:51 +0930, AB wrote:

Hi,
Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes to re-coup your
money on one of these systems ?
The sales pitch looks fabulous but after getting the calculator out it
doesn't seem so good.
Apart from the philsophical / green reasons for going solar , does the
$$$ add up ??

AFAIUI, without the rebate; No.
With rebate; yes, so long as you are not trapped into keeping it running.
someone has reported trouble with the inverter.

Where I live they are being advertised for ~ $4000 + $440 for a new
meter & connection to the Grid ( after the govt $8000 rebates etc ) so
about $4400 total installed cost

It seems pretty hard to calculate how much I would save per quarter on
my bills ,

You need to look up isolation(?) tables for you location. These should
give you a month by month breakdown of the likely average "effective"
hours of sunlight, which will give you your likely average production.

From which, you should be able to calculate how much electricity you will
not be paying for

With *only* a 1kW system it seems unlikely to be putting anything much
back into the grid , even if the power company will pay me 44c for it
????

Back to the grid depends on what demands you have.
Where does the buy back figure of 44c come from?
do you have that in writing?

 

[Ross Herbert]

On 25 Apr 2009 08:20:25 GMT, terryc <newssevenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

:On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:38:51 +0930, AB wrote:
:
:> Hi,
:> Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes to re-coup your
:> money on one of these systems ?
:> The sales pitch looks fabulous but after getting the calculator out it
:> doesn't seem so good.
:> Apart from the philsophical / green reasons for going solar , does the
:> $$$ add up ??
:
:AFAIUI, without the rebate; No.
:With rebate; yes, so long as you are not trapped into keeping it running.
:someone has reported trouble with the inverter.
:>
:> Where I live they are being advertised for ~ $4000 + $440 for a new
:> meter & connection to the Grid ( after the govt $8000 rebates etc ) so
:> about $4400 total installed cost
:>
:> It seems pretty hard to calculate how much I would save per quarter on
:> my bills ,
:
:You need to look up isolation(?) tables for you location. These should
:give you a month by month breakdown of the likely average "effective"
:hours of sunlight, which will give you your likely average production.
:
:From which, you should be able to calculate how much electricity you will
:not be paying for
:
:> With *only* a 1kW system it seems unlikely to be putting anything much
:> back into the grid , even if the power company will pay me 44c for it
:> ????
:
:Back to the grid depends on what demands you have.
:Where does the buy back figure of 44c come from?
:do you have that in writing?


These are the feed-in tariffs being advertised by Enviro-Friendly.
http://www.enviro-friendly.com/feed-in-tariff-pv.shtml

 

[Bruce Varley]

"AB" <andkb@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:0202aaca$0$31512$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

Hi,
Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes to re-coup your money
on one of these systems ?
The sales pitch looks fabulous but after getting the calculator out it
doesn't seem so good.
Apart from the philsophical / green reasons for going solar , does the $$$
add up ??

Where I live they are being advertised for ~ $4000 + $440 for a new meter
&
connection to the Grid ( after the govt $8000 rebates etc ) so about $4400
total installed cost

It seems pretty hard to calculate how much I would save per quarter on my
bills , so many variables of sunny days , overcast days , altitude , power
usage etc etc

At a guess of $50 per quarter savings on electricity , its going to take
22
years to break even.......and if it was $100 per quarter , then 11 years.
Is this correct or am I missing something ????

With *only* a 1kW system it seems unlikely to be putting anything much
back
into the grid , even if the power company will pay me 44c for it ????

Any real world experience anyone

Regards
Andrew

All the independent data I've seen indicates it's a very marginal investment

at best, taken in hard economic terms, and that assumes no problems of any
sort. The payback times are long enough that the gear has to have a fairly
long trouble free life. Has anyone seen failure stats for solar arrays
mounted on rooftops, also what's involved in a repair - bulk replacement?
When we enquired about a system, noone could, or was prepared, to provide us
with any info on these questions.

 

[Sylvia Else]

AB wrote:

Hi,
Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes to re-coup your money
on one of these systems ?
The sales pitch looks fabulous but after getting the calculator out it
doesn't seem so good.
Apart from the philsophical / green reasons for going solar , does the $$$
add up ??

Where I live they are being advertised for ~ $4000 + $440 for a new meter &
connection to the Grid ( after the govt $8000 rebates etc ) so about $4400
total installed cost

It seems pretty hard to calculate how much I would save per quarter on my
bills , so many variables of sunny days , overcast days , altitude , power
usage etc etc

At a guess of $50 per quarter savings on electricity , its going to take 22
years to break even.......and if it was $100 per quarter , then 11 years.
Is this correct or am I missing something ????

With *only* a 1kW system it seems unlikely to be putting anything much back
into the grid , even if the power company will pay me 44c for it ????

Any real world experience anyone

Regards
Andrew

Another important variable, which is also difficult to predict, is the
interest rate, and, if you don't have a mortgage, your marginal tax rate.

This is because if you didn't buy the solar installation, you could pay
down your mortgage, or if you don't have a mortgage, put the money on
deposit.

In the latter case, the interest will be considered income, and be
taxed, thus making it it less valuable to you than if you could use the
money to pay down your mortgage.

I found this page

http://www.yourhome.gov.au/technical/fs67.html

which would allow an estimate of the actual energy generated.

If you sell your house, I imagine your investment would be lost - I'd be
surprised if the presence of solar panels affected the sale price.

Come to think of it, I imagine that money paid to you by utilities,
under a feed-in tarrif, is also considered to be income, and is taxed at
your marginal rate, reducing the value of those payments.

Sylvia.

 

[Mauried]

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:22:52 +1000, Sylvia Else
<sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:

AB wrote:
Hi,
Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes to re-coup your money
on one of these systems ?
The sales pitch looks fabulous but after getting the calculator out it
doesn't seem so good.
Apart from the philsophical / green reasons for going solar , does the $$$
add up ??

Where I live they are being advertised for ~ $4000 + $440 for a new meter &
connection to the Grid ( after the govt $8000 rebates etc ) so about $4400
total installed cost

It seems pretty hard to calculate how much I would save per quarter on my
bills , so many variables of sunny days , overcast days , altitude , power
usage etc etc

At a guess of $50 per quarter savings on electricity , its going to take 22
years to break even.......and if it was $100 per quarter , then 11 years.
Is this correct or am I missing something ????

With *only* a 1kW system it seems unlikely to be putting anything much back
into the grid , even if the power company will pay me 44c for it ????

Any real world experience anyone

Regards
Andrew

Another important variable, which is also difficult to predict, is the
interest rate, and, if you don't have a mortgage, your marginal tax rate.

This is because if you didn't buy the solar installation, you could pay
down your mortgage, or if you don't have a mortgage, put the money on
deposit.

In the latter case, the interest will be considered income, and be
taxed, thus making it it less valuable to you than if you could use the
money to pay down your mortgage.

I found this page

http://www.yourhome.gov.au/technical/fs67.html

which would allow an estimate of the actual energy generated.

If you sell your house, I imagine your investment would be lost - I'd be
surprised if the presence of solar panels affected the sale price.

Come to think of it, I imagine that money paid to you by utilities,
under a feed-in tarrif, is also considered to be income, and is taxed at
your marginal rate, reducing the value of those payments.

Sylvia.

The other unknown is the feed in tariffs are set by Govts and can be
varied on a year by year basis,so you cant guarantee that the payments
for your power will stay constant.
The other unknown is the effect of feed in tariffs on electricity
prices.
If lots of people install solar systems then the costs to the power
company go up as they have to pay all the feed in tariffs.
The power companies are completely within their rights to recover all
the money paid in feed in tariffs by higher power prices, and the
component of the power price they increase is the fixed charge, so
unless you have a totally off grid system with battery backup, in the
long term the whole deal is marginal.

 

[Sylvia Else]

Mauried wrote:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:22:52 +1000, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:

AB wrote:
Hi,
Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes to re-coup your money
on one of these systems ?
The sales pitch looks fabulous but after getting the calculator out it
doesn't seem so good.
Apart from the philsophical / green reasons for going solar , does the $$$
add up ??

Where I live they are being advertised for ~ $4000 + $440 for a new meter &
connection to the Grid ( after the govt $8000 rebates etc ) so about $4400
total installed cost

It seems pretty hard to calculate how much I would save per quarter on my
bills , so many variables of sunny days , overcast days , altitude , power
usage etc etc

At a guess of $50 per quarter savings on electricity , its going to take 22
years to break even.......and if it was $100 per quarter , then 11 years.
Is this correct or am I missing something ????

With *only* a 1kW system it seems unlikely to be putting anything much back
into the grid , even if the power company will pay me 44c for it ????

Any real world experience anyone

Regards
Andrew
Another important variable, which is also difficult to predict, is the
interest rate, and, if you don't have a mortgage, your marginal tax rate.

This is because if you didn't buy the solar installation, you could pay
down your mortgage, or if you don't have a mortgage, put the money on
deposit.

In the latter case, the interest will be considered income, and be
taxed, thus making it it less valuable to you than if you could use the
money to pay down your mortgage.

I found this page

http://www.yourhome.gov.au/technical/fs67.html

which would allow an estimate of the actual energy generated.

If you sell your house, I imagine your investment would be lost - I'd be
surprised if the presence of solar panels affected the sale price.

Come to think of it, I imagine that money paid to you by utilities,
under a feed-in tarrif, is also considered to be income, and is taxed at
your marginal rate, reducing the value of those payments.

Sylvia.


The other unknown is the feed in tariffs are set by Govts and can be
varied on a year by year basis,so you cant guarantee that the payments
for your power will stay constant.

Depends on the jurisdiction. In the ACT, the tariff is fixed by the year
you install the equipment. Of course, it won't be adjusted for inflation.

The other unknown is the effect of feed in tariffs on electricity
prices.
If lots of people install solar systems then the costs to the power
company go up as they have to pay all the feed in tariffs.
The power companies are completely within their rights to recover all
the money paid in feed in tariffs by higher power prices, and the
component of the power price they increase is the fixed charge, so
unless you have a totally off grid system with battery backup, in the
long term the whole deal is marginal.

The latter is less clear cut as an input into the decision. I agree
about the effect on prices, but an individual would have to pay the
increase regardless of whether they have a solar panel. While their own
installation would have some effect on the prices, it would be
miniscule, since the cost it represents to the electricity suppliers
would be spread across all their customers.

Classic "tragedy of the commons" stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

This whole feed-in tariff concept is illconceived. Hopefully,
governments will come to their senses before too much economic damage is
done.

Sylvia.

 

[Eeyore]

AB wrote:

Hi,
Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes to re-coup your money
on one of these systems ?
The sales pitch looks fabulous but after getting the calculator out it
doesn't seem so good.

That's because it isn't.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

TonyS wrote:

The $8000 rebate

Is money other people have paid in taxes to subsidise a wasteful technology.

Graham

 

[atec 7 7]

Eeyore wrote:

TonyS wrote:

The $8000 rebate

Is money other people have paid in taxes to subsidise a wasteful technology.

Graham

Fact is importing a 2kw system directly bypassing the huge markup doing

an own install means much less cost and a viable system with a small
wind genny to top off ..
Only other thing we did was swap to gas in the kitchen and fill at the
local forklift place .

 

[terryc]

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 08:20:25 +0000, terryc wrote:

You need to look up isolation(?) tables for you location.

Baah, easier said then done. Solar insolation, sun hours, are google
options. Beware of "sunshine hours" aka BOM

http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/climate/cgi_bin_scripts/sunshine-hrs.cgi

These are not the the effective hours of output for a solar array unless
is it tracked and seasonally angle adjusted. Just the max possible in
such case without effect of dust, clouds, shadow, etc.

Anyway, this will give you the monthly figures.
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/climatology/sunshine_hours/
IDCJCM0013_sunshine-hours.shtml

 

[terryc]

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:22:52 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote:

Come to think of it, I imagine that money paid to you by utilities,
under a feed-in tarrif, is also considered to be income, and is taxed at
your marginal rate, reducing the value of those payments.

Lol, FUD. In that case, you simply invested in an income producing asset,
which can be depreciated (panels, regulator, setup, etc) plus any
expenses such as replacement regulators, repairs, water to wash them
down, etc, etc.

For someone paying highest tax rate, it may still be a nice little money
spinner.

Any remaining income could also be split between title holders.

Unless of course, you didn't actually own the land/structure it was on
and still had to pay rent to the title holder.

 

[Sylvia Else]

terryc wrote:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:22:52 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote:

Come to think of it, I imagine that money paid to you by utilities,
under a feed-in tarrif, is also considered to be income, and is taxed at
your marginal rate, reducing the value of those payments.

Lol, FUD. In that case, you simply invested in an income producing asset,

Yes. I should have thought of that. But by the same token, you'd have to
be careful to ensure that you aren't obtaining a benefit beyond the
income. I'm not sure how the gross schemes work. On a rational basis,
all the electricity generated is considered to be sold to the utility,
which means none of it is offsetting domestic consumption, which must
then be paid for at the normal rate. But then, there's nothing rational
about the whole idea anyway.

With a net scheme, you'd clearly be receiving a benefit from the system,
in the form of electricity, which the tax man should be wanting his cut
of, probably by only allowing a proportion of the depreciation and
maintenance costs to be deductible.

which can be depreciated (panels, regulator, setup, etc) plus any
expenses such as replacement regulators, repairs, water to wash them
down, etc, etc.


For someone paying highest tax rate, it may still be a nice little money
spinner.

I'm sceptical. I suspect that it's a marginal proposition at best, with
considerable risk, not least because I'm sure the button counters in the
Government will be making sure this can't be profitable in the hands of
the users.

Sylvia.

 

[Eeyore]

terryc wrote:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:38:51 +0930, AB wrote:

Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes to re-coup your
money on one of these systems ?
The sales pitch looks fabulous but after getting the calculator out it
doesn't seem so good.
Apart from the philsophical / green reasons for going solar , does the
$$$ add up ??

AFAIUI, without the rebate; No.
With rebate; yes, so long as you are not trapped into keeping it running.
someone has reported trouble with the inverter.

Where I live they are being advertised for ~ $4000 + $440 for a new
meter & connection to the Grid ( after the govt $8000 rebates etc ) so
about $4400 total installed cost

It seems pretty hard to calculate how much I would save per quarter on
my bills ,

You need to look up isolation(?) tables for you location. These should
give you a month by month breakdown of the likely average "effective"
hours of sunlight, which will give you your likely average production.

Insolation.
http://www.apricus.com/html/insolation_levels_asiap.htm

Look at the variation ! Adelaide avg 4.74 kW / m2 / day , Jan 7.2 , Jun 2.23

Multiply by 0.15 for the typical efficiency of crystaline panels and multiply
by the m2 of panels to get your daily output, e.g. 700Wh daily average / m2 (
yes, less than one kilowatt hour ).


Graham

 

[terryc]

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 02:13:02 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

TonyS wrote:

The $8000 rebate

Is money other people have paid in taxes to subsidise a wasteful
technology.

so, it is $8,000 in my pocket and insignificant compared to the millions
given to other wasteful industries.

 

[terryc]

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:29:30 +1000, atec 7 7 wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

TonyS wrote:

The $8000 rebate

Is money other people have paid in taxes to subsidise a wasteful
technology.

Graham

Fact is importing a 2kw system directly bypassing the huge markup

Url?

doing an own install

Are you licensed to connect to ains or standalone?

means much less cost and a viable system with a small
wind genny to top off ..
Only other thing we did was swap to gas in the kitchen and fill at the
local forklift place .

That is what we have.

 

[terryc]

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:32:34 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote:

terryc wrote:
On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:22:52 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote:

Come to think of it, I imagine that money paid to you by utilities,
under a feed-in tarrif, is also considered to be income, and is taxed
at your marginal rate, reducing the value of those payments.

Lol, FUD. In that case, you simply invested in an income producing
asset,

Yes. I should have thought of that. But by the same token, you'd have to
be careful to ensure that you aren't obtaining a benefit beyond the
income.

If you have an accountant,that is their worry, as some explained when
late for work one day. "I had to pay tax last year because the accountant
didn't do his job, so I was finding a new one"

I'm sceptical. I suspect that it's a marginal proposition at best, with
considerable risk, not least because I'm sure the button counters in the
Government will be making sure this can't be profitable in the hands of
the users.

The bean counters in the government don't have any say. The ATO does. In
any case, the government, all levels, wants to encourage "private bodies"
to get into power generation because the inevitable electricty shortages
would not be blamed on their failure to build another coal fired power
station.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

terryc wrote:

The bean counters in the government don't have any say. The ATO does. In
any case, the government, all levels, wants to encourage "private bodies"
to get into power generation because the inevitable electricty shortages
would not be blamed on their failure to build another coal fired power
station.

The ATO don't really have any say. They have to implement the tax law as
it stands. If income and expenditure for solar panels is to be given a
special treatement, that's a decision for government, not the ATO.

I was assuming the bean counters would have input into the level set for
the feed-in tariff so that there's no profit for the users. The trick is
to set a level that makes the punters *think* they're onto a good thing
when in fact they're not. Since so few people have even heard of
discounted cash flow, let alone understand it, this is not a difficult task.

Sylvia.

 

[atec 7 7]

terryc wrote:

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:29:30 +1000, atec 7 7 wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
TonyS wrote:

The $8000 rebate
Is money other people have paid in taxes to subsidise a wasteful
technology.

Graham

Fact is importing a 2kw system directly bypassing the huge markup

Url?
google any one of dozens of small chinese suppliers

we bought through the business from Singapore

doing an own install

Are you licensed to connect to ains or standalone?
I employ people who are , I do little installation these days being

forced to be the watcher

means much less cost and a viable system with a small
wind genny to top off ..
Only other thing we did was swap to gas in the kitchen and fill at the
local forklift place .

That is what we have.
get a wind genny , chinese unit at 600>800 watts costs bugger all ,

you just end up with an odd barrel on the roof.
>