Small amp .

F

Flygel

Guest
HI all

I have made circut B at this scheme.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/printer2.gif

it somewhat works, and when there is current on base of transistor 1 (from
the left)
the output is 9 volts.. witch is great.

BUT, when there is no base on trans 1 , there is a output of 4 volts..
what causes this ?

it makes the relay hit when there is base current, but not release when the
base current ends :(

Thanks for any help

Chris
 
"Flygel" <christian@schaathun.no> wrote in message
news:4283c6ac@news.broadpark.no...
HI all

I have made circut B at this scheme.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/printer2.gif

it somewhat works, and when there is current on base of transistor 1
(from
the left)
the output is 9 volts.. witch is great.

BUT, when there is no base on trans 1 , there is a output of 4 volts..
what causes this ?

it makes the relay hit when there is base current, but not release when
the
base current ends :(

Thanks for any help

Chris
Click to expand...
I would put something like a 10K resistor between the base and emitter of
the 2N2905 transistor. If that doesn't do the job, then you must have a bad
transistor. What kind of circuit do you have turning on the 2N3904
transistor? How much current does the relay require?

Brian
 
The circuit isn't a good design for the very problem you had. Apparently
the 2N3904 has a little leakage current which isn't too unusual.
Furthermore leakage increases with temperature so if you put the circuit
inside a warm printer, it will get worse.

The first thing to do is bring the input to the base of 2N3904 to the normal
low voltage during operation, for instance zero volts. Then measure the
voltage across the 300 ohm resistor. This will tell you the leakage current
(V(Re) / 300). Let's say you measure 0.15 V giving you a leakage current of
0.15 / 300 or 500 uA. Then bring the input to the normal high level voltage
and measure the emitter current. For instance if the normal high voltage is
5 V then the voltage across the 300 ohm resistor will be about (5 - 0.7) or
4.3 V and emitter current is 4.3 / 300 or about 14.3 mA.

There's a really obvious answer at this point. If the leakage current
causes 0.15V across a 300 ohm resistor at the low input level and the high
input level causes 4.3 V across the 300 ohm resistor, then if you also use a
300 ohm resistor from the collector of the 2N3904 to +12 V, you should get
the same voltages across that resistor, if the 2N2907 weren't connected. The
0.15 V due to leakage current won't be enough to turn on the 2N2907 and the
14.3mA - (.7 / 300) =12 mA, is more than enough to drive the 2N2907.

"Flygel" <christian@schaathun.no> wrote in message
news:4283c6ac@news.broadpark.no...
HI all

I have made circut B at this scheme.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/printer2.gif

it somewhat works, and when there is current on base of transistor 1 (from
the left)
the output is 9 volts.. witch is great.

BUT, when there is no base on trans 1 , there is a output of 4 volts..
what causes this ?

it makes the relay hit when there is base current, but not release when
the
base current ends :(

Thanks for any help

Chris
Click to expand...
 
Flygel wrote:
HI all

I have made circut B at this scheme.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/printer2.gif

it somewhat works, and when there is current on base of transistor 1 (from
the left)
the output is 9 volts.. witch is great.

BUT, when there is no base on trans 1 , there is a output of 4 volts..
what causes this ?
Click to expand...
I'd say you probably aren't connecting the circuit and parallel port
grounds together. The circuit itself looks fine.

it makes the relay hit when there is base current, but not release when the
base current ends :(

Thanks for any help
Click to expand...
---
Regards,
Bob Monsen
 
On Mon, 16 May 2005 19:46:13 -0700, Chris wrote:

Bill Bowden wrote:

snip
` VCC
` +
` |
` .-. VCC
` 300| | +
` | | |
` '-' |
` | ___ |
` o-|___|--|
` | 300 |\
` ___ |/ |
` o-|___|--| .--o
` 2K |> | |
` | | C|
` === - C|
` GND ^ C|
` | |
` ======
` GNDGND
created by Andy s ASCII-Circuit v1.24.140803 Beta

Well, I would use 1K resistors in place of the 300 ohm resistors to
reduce the load on the 2N3904 transistor.

If you use 300 ohm resistors as shown, they will essentially be in
parallel and the total load will be 150 ohms at 12 volts which
equates
to 80mA of collector current for the 2N3904.

I'm not sure a 2N3904 tansistor is capable of that current with a 1mA
input. You need a gain of 80 at 80 milliamps which is a little
optimistic for a little 2N3904.

Besides that, you also have a power dissipation problem, since the
3904
may turn on to it's limit at say 40mA and drop 6 volts, which is
around
1/4 watt of heat. This may cause more problems.

If you use 1K resistors, the total load will be 500 ohms, or about 24 mA
and the input to the PNP transistor will be half that, or 12mA. You only
need a gain of 10 for the PNP to supply 120 mA which should
be
enough for most 12 volt relays.

So, it's not as simple as it looks, there are many factors to
consider.
But I will change the circuit to your suggested configuration using
1K
resistors.

Thanks,

-Bill Bowden

Hi, Bill. Yep, at least the 300 ohm pullup. That could be changed to 1K
without any problem.

With stuff like this, you sometimes wonder what the person who did the
original circuit meant. I was guessing he felt he needed the 300 ohm
resistor for base drive on the second transistor (we don't know coil
resistance), and I was going with that.

Your idea of changing both resistors sounds great, and is an improvement
which would save power.
Click to expand...
For the 2N3904's collector resistor, you could use a much higher-value
resistor - all it's doing is wasting power anyway. I'd be comfortable
with as much as 47K. You don't really have to worry all that much about
thermal noise or phase response, after all. :)

Cheers!
Rich
 
Hey.

Cool to see youre actually here .

First i want to say thanks for a very informative and nice webpage!

I use a 100 ohm coil on the relč .

chrisitian

"Bill Bowden" <wrongaddress@att.net> wrote in message
news:1116382426.997907.298910@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
With stuff like this, you sometimes wonder what the person
who did the original circuit meant. I was guessing he felt
he needed the 300 ohm resistor for base drive on the
second transistor (we don't know coil resistance), and I was
going with that.

I am the person who did the original circuit, and I was using
a relay with a coil resistance of 120 ohms which worked
well. I suspect the original poster is using a relay of much
higher resistance which may not turn off if there is any
small leakage current from the first stage.

But, if that is the case, and he is using a relay with a
coil resistance of say 500 ohms, he only needs 24mA
of current, which is easily obtainable from a single stage.
No need for the second PNP transistor at all.

Thanks,

-Bill
Click to expand...
 
"Flygel" <christian@schaathun.no> wrote in message
news:428aea98$1@news.broadpark.no...
Hey.

Cool to see youre actually here .

First i want to say thanks for a very informative and nice webpage!

I use a 100 ohm coil on the relč .

chrisitian

"Bill Bowden" <wrongaddress@att.net> wrote in message
news:1116382426.997907.298910@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
With stuff like this, you sometimes wonder what the person
who did the original circuit meant. I was guessing he felt
he needed the 300 ohm resistor for base drive on the
second transistor (we don't know coil resistance), and I was
going with that.

I am the person who did the original circuit, and I was using
a relay with a coil resistance of 120 ohms which worked
well. I suspect the original poster is using a relay of much
higher resistance which may not turn off if there is any
small leakage current from the first stage.

But, if that is the case, and he is using a relay with a
coil resistance of say 500 ohms, he only needs 24mA
of current, which is easily obtainable from a single stage.
No need for the second PNP transistor at all.

Thanks,

-Bill
Click to expand...
Cool to see you are here, too. It would have been nice to hear from you
sooner. :>)

Brian
 
Flygel wrote:
HI all

I have made circut B at this scheme.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/printer2.gif

it somewhat works, and when there is current on base of transistor 1
(from
the left)
the output is 9 volts.. witch is great.

BUT, when there is no base on trans 1 , there is a output of 4
volts..
what causes this ?

it makes the relay hit when there is base current, but not release
when the
base current ends :(

Thanks for any help

Chris
Click to expand...
Hi, Chris. I don't believe the originator of your circuit B knew what
he was doing -- you got bad advice. As others have mentioned, the
leakage current of the first transistor is partially turning on the
second one. Most relay manufacturers say the voltage across the relay
has to go well below 20% of nominal to ensure turnoff.

Here's something close that will only require one more resistor and
will work well (view in fixed font or Notepad):

` VCC
` +
` |
` .-. VCC
` 300| | +
` | | |
` '-' |
` | ___ |<
` o-|___|--|
` | 300 |\
` ___ |/ |
` o-|___|--| .--o
` 2K |> | |
` | | C|
` === - C|
` GND ^ C|
` | |
` =====` GNDGND
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.24.140803 Beta www.tech-chat.de

Both transistors are being used as pure switches. The pullup resistor
to Vcc will swamp out any leakage current from the first transistor.
As a practical matter, this should get your project going.

Good luck
Chris
 
Hi, Chris. I don't believe the originator
of your circuit B knew what he was doing --
you got bad advice. As others have mentioned,
the leakage current of the first transistor is
partially turning on the second one.
Most relay manufacturers say the voltage across
the relay has to go well below 20% of nominal to
ensure turnoff.

Here's something close that will only require one more
resistor and will work well (view in fixed font or Notepad):
Click to expand...

` VCC
` +
` |
` .-. VCC
` 300| | +
` | | |
` '-' |
` | ___ |
` o-|___|--|
` | 300 |\
` ___ |/ |
` o-|___|--| .--o
` 2K |> | |
` | | C|
` === - C|
` GND ^ C|
` | |
` ======
` GNDGND
created by Andy s ASCII-Circuit v1.24.140803 Beta
Click to expand...
Well, I would use 1K resistors in place of the 300 ohm resistors to
reduce the load on the 2N3904 transistor.

If you use 300 ohm resistors as shown, they will essentially be in
parallel and the total load will be 150 ohms at 12 volts which equates
to 80mA of collector current for the 2N3904.

I'm not sure a 2N3904 tansistor is capable of that current with
a 1mA input. You need a gain of 80 at 80 milliamps which
is a little optimistic for a little 2N3904.

Besides that, you also have a power dissipation problem, since the 3904
may turn on to it's limit at say 40mA and drop 6 volts, which is around
1/4 watt of heat. This may cause more problems.

If you use 1K resistors, the total load will be 500 ohms, or about
24 mA and the input to the PNP transistor will be half that, or 12mA.
You only need a gain of 10 for the PNP to supply 120 mA which should be
enough for most 12 volt relays.

So, it's not as simple as it looks, there are many factors to consider.
But I will change the circuit to your suggested configuration using 1K
resistors.

Thanks,

-Bill Bowden
 
Bill Bowden wrote:
snip
` VCC
` +
` |
` .-. VCC
` 300| | +
` | | |
` '-' |
` | ___ |
` o-|___|--|
` | 300 |\
` ___ |/ |
` o-|___|--| .--o
` 2K |> | |
` | | C|
` === - C|
` GND ^ C|
` | |
` ======
` GNDGND
created by Andy s ASCII-Circuit v1.24.140803 Beta

Well, I would use 1K resistors in place of the 300 ohm resistors to
reduce the load on the 2N3904 transistor.

If you use 300 ohm resistors as shown, they will essentially be in
parallel and the total load will be 150 ohms at 12 volts which
equates
to 80mA of collector current for the 2N3904.

I'm not sure a 2N3904 tansistor is capable of that current with
a 1mA input. You need a gain of 80 at 80 milliamps which
is a little optimistic for a little 2N3904.

Besides that, you also have a power dissipation problem, since the
3904
may turn on to it's limit at say 40mA and drop 6 volts, which is
around
1/4 watt of heat. This may cause more problems.

If you use 1K resistors, the total load will be 500 ohms, or about
24 mA and the input to the PNP transistor will be half that, or 12mA.
You only need a gain of 10 for the PNP to supply 120 mA which should
be
enough for most 12 volt relays.

So, it's not as simple as it looks, there are many factors to
consider.
But I will change the circuit to your suggested configuration using
1K
resistors.

Thanks,

-Bill Bowden
Click to expand...
Hi, Bill. Yep, at least the 300 ohm pullup. That could be changed to
1K without any problem.

With stuff like this, you sometimes wonder what the person who did the
original circuit meant. I was guessing he felt he needed the 300 ohm
resistor for base drive on the second transistor (we don't know coil
resistance), and I was going with that.

Your idea of changing both resistors sounds great, and is an
improvement which would save power.

Good luck
Chris
 
With stuff like this, you sometimes wonder what the person
who did the original circuit meant. I was guessing he felt
he needed the 300 ohm resistor for base drive on the
second transistor (we don't know coil resistance), and I was
going with that.
Click to expand...
I am the person who did the original circuit, and I was using
a relay with a coil resistance of 120 ohms which worked
well. I suspect the original poster is using a relay of much
higher resistance which may not turn off if there is any
small leakage current from the first stage.

But, if that is the case, and he is using a relay with a
coil resistance of say 500 ohms, he only needs 24mA
of current, which is easily obtainable from a single stage.
No need for the second PNP transistor at all.

Thanks,

-Bill
 
chrisitian,

That circuit should work as shown, If you get a voltage
across the relay with the input open, or at ground, you
may have a bad transistor.

But, you can also use Chris's version with the extra
resistor, but I would change the 300 to 1K resistors.

-Bill
 
It would have been nice to hear from you sooner. :>)
Click to expand...
Brian,

Yes, well I don't read all the newsgroup postings every day,
so I didn't discover the thread until it was 4 days old.

Sorry about that,

-Bill
 
"Bill Bowden" <wrongaddress@att.net> wrote in message
news:1116464216.661528.187870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
It would have been nice to hear from you sooner. :>)

Brian,

Yes, well I don't read all the newsgroup postings every day,
so I didn't discover the thread until it was 4 days old.

Sorry about that,

-Bill
Click to expand...
No Bill, I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about Chris (who posted
the original question). I had asked him what kind of circuit was driving
your circuit and how much current his relay required (there was no reply).
I'm sure that some of the people who tried to help him, would've like that
information too.

Brian
 
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