Slightly OT: Video capture / digital TV cards

[Rick]

Hi. I may be asking a lot, but I am after one (or more) PC cards that can
:-

1. Capture analog video
2. Receive digital free-to-air signals
3. Receive DV camera via firewire
4. Playback video through analog output (composite or S-Video)

I'm not after anything flash like a full-on video editing suite with
on-board effects processing etc, just something that'll do the basics.

I am planning on upgrading my four year old PC to something like a 3ghz P4
and a decent enough 3D video card, however I believe I can do slightly
better than the in-built analog video capture that is found on some of them.
I have heard about the Canopus ADVC50 which is said to have great quality
analog video capture facilities, unfortunately such a card does not receive
free-to-air digital TV signals and this makes me wonder about what other
cards that are on the market to do such a thing properly. And indeed, do
these digital free-to-air receivers record onto HD so that the video can be
made into a DVD later on?

I already have a SB Audigy which has a Firewire connection so I'm guessing
that I won't need this again on whichever card that I buy. In summary,
these are the features that I am wanting to have inside my PC, but I am just
not sure which one (or two cards in compatible combination) will be the best
all-round solution. I am after the best quality possible for a limited
budget (not sure of the $ figure until I hear all suggestions first, maybe
$500 in total for a ball-park estimate), so any and all advice is greatly
appreciated.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rick <deNOBULLlorean@dodo.com.au> wrote in
message news:40b8cec8@news.comindico.com.au...

Hi. I may be asking a lot,

Nope.

but I am after one (or more) PC cards that can
:-

1. Capture analog video
2. Receive digital free-to-air signals
3. Receive DV camera via firewire
4. Playback video through analog output (composite or S-Video)

I'm not after anything flash like a full-on video editing suite with
on-board effects processing etc, just something that'll do the basics.

I am planning on upgrading my four year old PC to something like a 3ghz
P4 and a decent enough 3D video card, however I believe I can do slightly
better than the in-built analog video capture that is found on some of them.

I have heard about the Canopus ADVC50 which is said to have great
quality analog video capture facilities, unfortunately such a card does not
receive free-to-air digital TV signals and this makes me wonder about
what other cards that are on the market to do such a thing properly.

That capability is available now.
http://www.digitalnow.com.au/
http://www.dpanda.com.au/
http://www.dba.org.au

And indeed, do these digital free-to-air receivers record
onto HD so that the video can be made into a DVD later on?

Yep.

I already have a SB Audigy which has a Firewire connection so I'm
guessing that I won't need this again on whichever card that I buy.

Correct.

In summary, these are the features that I am wanting
to have inside my PC, but I am just not sure which one
(or two cards in compatible combination)

Or an external DVT box with USB2 connection.

will be the best all-round solution. I am after the best quality
possible for a limited budget (not sure of the $ figure until I hear
all suggestions first, maybe $500 in total for a ball-park estimate),

Should be fine.

> so any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Damien Evans]

So DTV cards can capture analogue video?

 

[Rod Speed]

Damien Evans <guest@anon.com> wrote in
message news:2hsng3Fgtl0oU1@uni-berlin.de...

So DTV cards can capture analogue video?

Yes, some certainly can. The top two at
http://www.digitalnow.com.au/products/dvbt.html
do.

 

[Adam F]

Ah damn it, I can see I'm going to have to get one of these, but then I'll
be needing a widescreen LCD and a few new hard drives



Adam F



"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2hso6uFgrkteU1@uni-berlin.de...

Damien Evans <guest@anon.com> wrote in
message news:2hsng3Fgtl0oU1@uni-berlin.de...

So DTV cards can capture analogue video?

Yes, some certainly can. The top two at
http://www.digitalnow.com.au/products/dvbt.html
do.

 

[Rod Speed]

Adam F <asfletchNOSPAM@uts.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Qyauc.17306$L.9531@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

Ah damn it, I can see I'm going to have to get one of these,

Yeah, about to buy something myself. Not sure which yet.

but then I'll be needing a widescreen LCD

I went for a widescreen glass TV instead.

and a few new hard drives

Dunno about a few, time will tell how many I need.

I like the Samsungs, nice and quiet. Main downside
is that they max out at 160GB currently.

"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2hso6uFgrkteU1@uni-berlin.de...

Damien Evans <guest@anon.com> wrote in
message news:2hsng3Fgtl0oU1@uni-berlin.de...

So DTV cards can capture analogue video?

Yes, some certainly can. The top two at
http://www.digitalnow.com.au/products/dvbt.html
do.

 

[Arny Krueger]

Rick wrote:

Hi. I may be asking a lot, but I am after one (or more) PC cards
that can :-

1. Capture analog video
2. Receive digital free-to-air signals
3. Receive DV camera via firewire
4. Playback video through analog output (composite or S-Video)

I have a few. They can run $50 and up. Most of them don't have firewire
ports, but you can easily get those sepearately for $25 and up.

I'm not after anything flash like a full-on video editing suite with
on-board effects processing etc, just something that'll do the basics.

That's what software does, anyway.

I am planning on upgrading my four year old PC to something like a
3ghz P4 and a decent enough 3D video card, however I believe I can do
slightly better than the in-built analog video capture that is found
on some of them.

Probably.

I have heard about the Canopus ADVC50 which is said
to have great quality analog video capture facilities, unfortunately
such a card does not receive free-to-air digital TV signals

It seems kinda pricey for what it is. I've tried a few $50 cards and they
can do surprisingly well on standard TV. A number of the cards that other
posters mentioned are HDTV cards, and of course they are more expensive than
a basic card for working with regular TV signals.

The Canopus card seems kinda round-about because it converts TV to Firewire,
instead of converting straight to PCI.

and this
makes me wonder about what other cards that are on the market to do
such a thing properly.

Here's cheapie that also works pretty well:

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=14-122-132&depa=0

And indeed, do these digital free-to-air
receivers record onto HD so that the video can be made into a DVD
later on?

That's a function of the video editing software that you use. TMS even
provides a video editing application in XP that gets the job done.

I already have a SB Audigy which has a Firewire connection so I'm
guessing that I won't need this again on whichever card that I buy.

Good guess.

In summary, these are the features that I am wanting to have inside
my PC, but I am just not sure which one (or two cards in compatible
combination) will be the best all-round solution. I am after the
best quality possible for a limited budget (not sure of the $ figure
until I hear all suggestions first, maybe $500 in total for a
ball-park estimate), so any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

You're as much as 5 times too high, even in Aussie $$$.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:T5ednTjH7ZGZJSTdRVn-tA@comcast.com...

Rick wrote:
Hi. I may be asking a lot, but I am after one (or more) PC cards
that can :-

1. Capture analog video
2. Receive digital free-to-air signals
3. Receive DV camera via firewire
4. Playback video through analog output (composite or S-Video)

I have a few. They can run $50 and up. Most of them don't have firewire
ports, but you can easily get those sepearately for $25 and up.

I'm not after anything flash like a full-on video editing suite with
on-board effects processing etc, just something that'll do the basics.

That's what software does, anyway.

I am planning on upgrading my four year old PC to something like a
3ghz P4 and a decent enough 3D video card, however I believe I can do
slightly better than the in-built analog video capture that is found
on some of them.

Probably.

I have heard about the Canopus ADVC50 which is said
to have great quality analog video capture facilities, unfortunately
such a card does not receive free-to-air digital TV signals

It seems kinda pricey for what it is. I've tried a few $50 cards and they
can do surprisingly well on standard TV. A number of the cards that other
posters mentioned are HDTV cards, and of course they are more expensive than
a basic card for working with regular TV signals.

The Canopus card seems kinda round-about because it converts TV to Firewire,
instead of converting straight to PCI.

and this
makes me wonder about what other cards that are on the market to do
such a thing properly.

Here's cheapie that also works pretty well:

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=14-122-132&depa=0

That one doesnt do is his 2 requirement.

And indeed, do these digital free-to-air
receivers record onto HD so that the video can be made into a DVD
later on?

That's a function of the video editing software that you use. TMS even
provides a video editing application in XP that gets the job done.

I already have a SB Audigy which has a Firewire connection so I'm
guessing that I won't need this again on whichever card that I buy.

Good guess.

In summary, these are the features that I am wanting to have inside
my PC, but I am just not sure which one (or two cards in compatible
combination) will be the best all-round solution. I am after the
best quality possible for a limited budget (not sure of the $ figure
until I hear all suggestions first, maybe $500 in total for a
ball-park estimate), so any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

You're as much as 5 times too high, even in Aussie $$$.

Not with his DTV requirement, point 2

 

[Arny Krueger]

Rod Speed wrote:

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:T5ednTjH7ZGZJSTdRVn-tA@comcast.com...
Rick wrote:
Hi. I may be asking a lot, but I am after one (or more) PC cards
that can :-

1. Capture analog video
2. Receive digital free-to-air signals
3. Receive DV camera via firewire
4. Playback video through analog output (composite or S-Video)

I have a few. They can run $50 and up. Most of them don't have
firewire ports, but you can easily get those sepearately for $25 and
up.

I'm not after anything flash like a full-on video editing suite with
on-board effects processing etc, just something that'll do the
basics.

That's what software does, anyway.

I am planning on upgrading my four year old PC to something like a
3ghz P4 and a decent enough 3D video card, however I believe I can
do slightly better than the in-built analog video capture that is
found on some of them.

Probably.

I have heard about the Canopus ADVC50 which is said
to have great quality analog video capture facilities, unfortunately
such a card does not receive free-to-air digital TV signals

It seems kinda pricey for what it is. I've tried a few $50 cards and
they can do surprisingly well on standard TV. A number of the cards
that other posters mentioned are HDTV cards, and of course they are
more expensive than a basic card for working with regular TV signals.

The Canopus card seems kinda round-about because it converts TV to
Firewire, instead of converting straight to PCI.

and this
makes me wonder about what other cards that are on the market to do
such a thing properly.

Here's cheapie that also works pretty well:


http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=14-122-132&depa=0

That one doesnt do is his 2 requirement.

And indeed, do these digital free-to-air
receivers record onto HD so that the video can be made into a DVD
later on?

That's a function of the video editing software that you use. TMS
even provides a video editing application in XP that gets the job
done.

I already have a SB Audigy which has a Firewire connection so I'm
guessing that I won't need this again on whichever card that I buy.

Good guess.

In summary, these are the features that I am wanting to have inside
my PC, but I am just not sure which one (or two cards in compatible
combination) will be the best all-round solution. I am after the
best quality possible for a limited budget (not sure of the $ figure
until I hear all suggestions first, maybe $500 in total for a
ball-park estimate), so any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

You're as much as 5 times too high, even in Aussie $$$.

Not with his DTV requirement, point 2

Unfamiliar with the wording.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:M4-dnfLFc-EkxyfdRVn-gw@comcast.com...

Rod Speed wrote:
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:T5ednTjH7ZGZJSTdRVn-tA@comcast.com...
Rick wrote:
Hi. I may be asking a lot, but I am after one (or more) PC cards
that can :-

1. Capture analog video
2. Receive digital free-to-air signals
3. Receive DV camera via firewire
4. Playback video through analog output (composite or S-Video)

I have a few. They can run $50 and up. Most of them don't have
firewire ports, but you can easily get those sepearately for $25 and
up.

I'm not after anything flash like a full-on video editing suite with
on-board effects processing etc, just something that'll do the
basics.

That's what software does, anyway.

I am planning on upgrading my four year old PC to something like a
3ghz P4 and a decent enough 3D video card, however I believe I can
do slightly better than the in-built analog video capture that is
found on some of them.

Probably.

I have heard about the Canopus ADVC50 which is said
to have great quality analog video capture facilities, unfortunately
such a card does not receive free-to-air digital TV signals

It seems kinda pricey for what it is. I've tried a few $50 cards and
they can do surprisingly well on standard TV. A number of the cards
that other posters mentioned are HDTV cards, and of course they are
more expensive than a basic card for working with regular TV signals.

The Canopus card seems kinda round-about because it converts TV to
Firewire, instead of converting straight to PCI.

and this
makes me wonder about what other cards that are on the market to do
such a thing properly.

Here's cheapie that also works pretty well:


http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=14-122-132&depa=0

That one doesnt do is his 2 requirement.

And indeed, do these digital free-to-air
receivers record onto HD so that the video can be made into a DVD
later on?

That's a function of the video editing software that you use. TMS
even provides a video editing application in XP that gets the job
done.

I already have a SB Audigy which has a Firewire connection so I'm
guessing that I won't need this again on whichever card that I buy.

Good guess.

In summary, these are the features that I am wanting to have inside
my PC, but I am just not sure which one (or two cards in compatible
combination) will be the best all-round solution. I am after the
best quality possible for a limited budget (not sure of the $ figure
until I hear all suggestions first, maybe $500 in total for a
ball-park estimate), so any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

You're as much as 5 times too high, even in Aussie $$$.

Not with his DTV requirement, point 2

Unfamiliar with the wording.

Digital TV. Sometimes DTV-T is used to distinguish
between terrestrial and satellite which is DTV-S
Sometimes DVB-T and DVB-S

 

[Russ]

"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2hsrqhFgc7liU1@uni-berlin.de...

Adam F <asfletchNOSPAM@uts.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Qyauc.17306$L.9531@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

Ah damn it, I can see I'm going to have to get one of these,

Yeah, about to buy something myself. Not sure which yet.

I want to get something too, but neither of the cards this bunch -
http://www.digitalnow.com.au/
- are offering seem ideal. I'm not so concerned with HD, rather:
- I'd like the ability to reliably schedule the recording of SD programs
without loading down my machine's memory or processor
- I want to be able cut out the TVCs and burn to DVD quickly
- I want dropped-frame-free playback
- It needs to play nice with my Nvidia graphics card.

At the moment, it seems either the software is flaky, or doesn't do
scheduled recording reliably, or doesn't like Nvidia cards.

That said, I think I'm just going to have to get one of the Dvico FusionHDTV
cards and be prepared for a bit of a struggle.

Russ.

 

[Rod Speed]

Russ <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2hvum3Fhik5fU1@uni-berlin.de...

Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
Adam F <asfletchNOSPAM@uts.edu.au> wrote

Ah damn it, I can see I'm going to have to get one of these,

Yeah, about to buy something myself. Not sure which yet.

I want to get something too, but neither of the cards this bunch -
http://www.digitalnow.com.au/
- are offering seem ideal.

Yeah, that was my reaction too, tho they are cheap
enough to be worth going for even if they arent ideal.

I'm not so concerned with HD,

I wasnt initally, but on a closer look at HD programming on
http://www.widescreentv.info/ widescreen programs,
looks like it might well be worth getting HD capability
now, even if I only record in that format ocassionally.

rather:
- I'd like the ability to reliably schedule the recording of SD programs
without loading down my machine's memory or processor

Sure, tho I would be happy to dedicate a PC to that.

I watch almost nothing live, often am recording 2 and
sometimes 3 channels simultaneously, so thats more
important for me, more than one card at a time.

- I want to be able cut out the TVCs and burn to DVD quickly

Yes, I can have one hell of a backlog of unwatched stuff,
so I do need to be able to spool stuff out to DVD, tho that
has no effect on the card, once its on the hard drive in
digital format, thats a separate massaging issue.

I'd like to have good control over the captions etc because
I dont normally stare at the TV when 'watching' stuff, I usually
play freecell on the PC and glance at the TV when there is
something worth looking at. So I'd like to use a voice synthesiser
on the captions on the stupid subtitled SBS material when
the eejuts wont do a voiceover for wogs spouting.

- I want dropped-frame-free playback
- It needs to play nice with my Nvidia graphics card.

At the moment, it seems either the software is flaky, or doesn't
do scheduled recording reliably, or doesn't like Nvidia cards.

Wouldnt be as important for me because I'd be happy
to dedicate a PC to the recording and do the playback
separately, on a separate PC if necessary.

That said, I think I'm just going to have to get one of the Dvico
FusionHDTV cards and be prepared for a bit of a struggle.

Yeah, I likely will take a punt on one of
them because they arent that expensive.

 

[Rick]

I should have indicated that the reason I want to do all this on the PC is
that it is probably a cheaper solution to get these cards on PC than to have
them standalone on the TV ... AND of course that it allows me to do a lot
more with the technology on a PC.

Anyway, the prime consideration for my uber-PC is to
- capture analog video (to end up on DVDs) and receive DV-TV signals

The other two are secondary but still desirable. Any recommended products
would be great. Thanks for all your helpful comments so far.

"Rick" <deNOBULLlorean@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:40b8cec8@news.comindico.com.au...

Hi. I may be asking a lot, but I am after one (or more) PC cards that can
:-

1. Capture analog video
2. Receive digital free-to-air signals
3. Receive DV camera via firewire
4. Playback video through analog output (composite or S-Video)

I'm not after anything flash like a full-on video editing suite with
on-board effects processing etc, just something that'll do the basics.

I am planning on upgrading my four year old PC to something like a 3ghz P4
and a decent enough 3D video card, however I believe I can do slightly
better than the in-built analog video capture that is found on some of
them.
I have heard about the Canopus ADVC50 which is said to have great quality
analog video capture facilities, unfortunately such a card does not
receive
free-to-air digital TV signals and this makes me wonder about what other
cards that are on the market to do such a thing properly. And indeed, do
these digital free-to-air receivers record onto HD so that the video can
be
made into a DVD later on?

I already have a SB Audigy which has a Firewire connection so I'm guessing
that I won't need this again on whichever card that I buy. In summary,
these are the features that I am wanting to have inside my PC, but I am
just
not sure which one (or two cards in compatible combination) will be the
best
all-round solution. I am after the best quality possible for a limited
budget (not sure of the $ figure until I hear all suggestions first, maybe
$500 in total for a ball-park estimate), so any and all advice is greatly
appreciated.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

 

[Arny Krueger]

Rod Speed wrote:

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:M4-dnfLFc-EkxyfdRVn-gw@comcast.com...
Rod Speed wrote:
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:T5ednTjH7ZGZJSTdRVn-tA@comcast.com...
Rick wrote:
Hi. I may be asking a lot, but I am after one (or more) PC cards
that can :-

1. Capture analog video
2. Receive digital free-to-air signals
3. Receive DV camera via firewire
4. Playback video through analog output (composite or S-Video)

I have a few. They can run $50 and up. Most of them don't have
firewire ports, but you can easily get those sepearately for $25
and up.

I'm not after anything flash like a full-on video editing suite
with on-board effects processing etc, just something that'll do
the basics.

That's what software does, anyway.

I am planning on upgrading my four year old PC to something like a
3ghz P4 and a decent enough 3D video card, however I believe I can
do slightly better than the in-built analog video capture that is
found on some of them.

Probably.

I have heard about the Canopus ADVC50 which is said
to have great quality analog video capture facilities,
unfortunately such a card does not receive free-to-air digital TV
signals

It seems kinda pricey for what it is. I've tried a few $50 cards
and they can do surprisingly well on standard TV. A number of the
cards that other posters mentioned are HDTV cards, and of course
they are more expensive than a basic card for working with regular
TV signals.

The Canopus card seems kinda round-about because it converts TV to
Firewire, instead of converting straight to PCI.

and this
makes me wonder about what other cards that are on the market to
do such a thing properly.

Here's cheapie that also works pretty well:



http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=14-122-132&depa=0

That one doesnt do is his 2 requirement.

And indeed, do these digital free-to-air
receivers record onto HD so that the video can be made into a DVD
later on?

That's a function of the video editing software that you use. TMS
even provides a video editing application in XP that gets the job
done.

I already have a SB Audigy which has a Firewire connection so I'm
guessing that I won't need this again on whichever card that I
buy.

Good guess.

In summary, these are the features that I am wanting to have
inside my PC, but I am just not sure which one (or two cards in
compatible combination) will be the best all-round solution. I
am after the best quality possible for a limited budget (not sure
of the $ figure until I hear all suggestions first, maybe $500 in
total for a ball-park estimate), so any and all advice is greatly
appreciated.

You're as much as 5 times too high, even in Aussie $$$.

Not with his DTV requirement, point 2

Unfamiliar with the wording.

Digital TV. Sometimes DTV-T is used to distinguish
between terrestrial and satellite which is DTV-S
Sometimes DVB-T and DVB-S

Does the MyHD MDP-100 capture card work with these formats?

 

[Rod Speed]

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:Nt6dnRfMUZ6VhybdRVn-tA@comcast.com...

Rod Speed wrote:
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:M4-dnfLFc-EkxyfdRVn-gw@comcast.com...
Rod Speed wrote:
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:T5ednTjH7ZGZJSTdRVn-tA@comcast.com...
Rick wrote:
Hi. I may be asking a lot, but I am after one (or more) PC cards
that can :-

1. Capture analog video
2. Receive digital free-to-air signals
3. Receive DV camera via firewire
4. Playback video through analog output (composite or S-Video)

I have a few. They can run $50 and up. Most of them don't have
firewire ports, but you can easily get those sepearately for $25
and up.

I'm not after anything flash like a full-on video editing suite
with on-board effects processing etc, just something that'll do
the basics.

That's what software does, anyway.

I am planning on upgrading my four year old PC to something like a
3ghz P4 and a decent enough 3D video card, however I believe I can
do slightly better than the in-built analog video capture that is
found on some of them.

Probably.

I have heard about the Canopus ADVC50 which is said
to have great quality analog video capture facilities,
unfortunately such a card does not receive free-to-air digital TV
signals

It seems kinda pricey for what it is. I've tried a few $50 cards
and they can do surprisingly well on standard TV. A number of the
cards that other posters mentioned are HDTV cards, and of course
they are more expensive than a basic card for working with regular
TV signals.

The Canopus card seems kinda round-about because it converts TV to
Firewire, instead of converting straight to PCI.

and this
makes me wonder about what other cards that are on the market to
do such a thing properly.

Here's cheapie that also works pretty well:



http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=14-122-132&depa=0

That one doesnt do is his 2 requirement.

And indeed, do these digital free-to-air
receivers record onto HD so that the video can be made into a DVD
later on?

That's a function of the video editing software that you use. TMS
even provides a video editing application in XP that gets the job
done.

I already have a SB Audigy which has a Firewire connection so I'm
guessing that I won't need this again on whichever card that I
buy.

Good guess.

In summary, these are the features that I am wanting to have
inside my PC, but I am just not sure which one (or two cards in
compatible combination) will be the best all-round solution. I
am after the best quality possible for a limited budget (not sure
of the $ figure until I hear all suggestions first, maybe $500 in
total for a ball-park estimate), so any and all advice is greatly
appreciated.

You're as much as 5 times too high, even in Aussie $$$.

Not with his DTV requirement, point 2

Unfamiliar with the wording.

Digital TV. Sometimes DTV-T is used to distinguish
between terrestrial and satellite which is DTV-S
Sometimes DVB-T and DVB-S

Does the MyHD MDP-100 capture card work with these formats?

Dunno. That is one area where things get messy fast.

One advantage with a site like http://www.digitalnow.com.au/products.html
it lists very explicitly indeed which hardware supports our DTV formats.

http://www.dba.org.au has lists too, and there is a lot of the specifics
at http://www.dba.org.au/index.asp?sectionID=76 but it often isnt that
easy to work out from the often rather poor specs with specific hardware
whether it will work on our system, particularly with the more obscure
features like the EPG and captions and subsidiary audio channels etc.