Size of 60 kWhr Capacitor

[BretCahill]

Some well intentioned daydreamer wants to store energy in motor vehicles with
capacitors.

Does anyone know the size of a 60 kW hr capacitor?

If the dielectric failed in a crash, what size crater are we looking at?

Just some ballpark calculations.


Bret Cahill

 

[Boris Mohar]

On 13 Oct 2003 07:20:54 GMT, bretcahill@aol.com (BretCahill) wrote:

Some well intentioned daydreamer wants to store energy in motor vehicles with
capacitors.

Does anyone know the size of a 60 kW hr capacitor?

Bigger than a car.

If the dielectric failed in a crash, what size crater are we looking at?

Bigger than a car

Just some ballpark calculations.

I am only guessing.

--

Regards,

Boris Mohar

Got Knock? - see:
Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs http://www3.sympatico.ca/borism/
Aurora, Ontario

 

[Thomas C. Sefranek]

First pass:

P=IE
60,000 watts
Assume 12 volts.
I = 5,000 amps.

R =E/I
R = 12/5000

T=RC
T=3600 seconds.
C = 3600*5000/12
C = 1,500,000 Farads

And at the end of the time you only have 37% of the voltage.
So you might want to icrease it an order of magnitude....

I estimate a rail car size bank of capacitors.
(And about the same WEIGHT!)

Batteries are a MUCH better solution,
but even these are not light at this power.

"BretCahill" <bretcahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031013032054.10790.00000215@mb-m15.aol.com...

Some well intentioned daydreamer wants to store energy in motor vehicles
with
capacitors.

Does anyone know the size of a 60 kW hr capacitor?

If the dielectric failed in a crash, what size crater are we looking at?

Just some ballpark calculations.


Bret Cahill

--
*
| __O Thomas C. Sefranek WA1RHP@ARRL.net
|_-\<,_ Amateur Radio Operator: WA1RHP
(*)/ (*) Bicycle mobile on 145.41, 448.625 MHz

http://hamradio.cmcorp.com/inventory/Inventory.html
http://www.harvardrepeater.org

 

[nospam]

bretcahill@aol.com (BretCahill) wrote:

Some well intentioned daydreamer wants to store energy in motor vehicles with
capacitors.

Does anyone know the size of a 60 kW hr capacitor?

Using a typical Maxwell boostcap ultracapacitor the volume will be around
6000 us gallons, the weight around 29,000 kg.

Dream on.

 

[Bob Myers]

"Mark Carroll" <markc@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:F2f*t9R4p@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...

In article <20031013032054.10790.00000215@mb-m15.aol.com>,
BretCahill <bretcahill@aol.com> wrote:
Some well intentioned daydreamer wants to store energy in motor vehicles
with
capacitors.

Does anyone know the size of a 60 kW hr capacitor?

No, but apparently capacitors of the order of 1000F or so can be made
surprisingly small these days, through doing clever things with
"rough" surfaces that have a high surface area.

Sure - but 1000F at what working voltage? High capacitance
per se is NOT the goal of what Frank ("ferrguy") THINKS
he's doing, but rather energy density. And thanks to the way
that energy storage depends not on capacitance alone, but rather
the amount of charge you can hold >>>at a given voltage<<<,
he's SOL.

This sort of thing
does turn out to possibly be useful in automotive applications. (I
just came back from a meeting at an automotive research place that
mentioned them.)

Yes, but not as the primary energy storage device.

Well, that's a good question: I read your article before going to the
meeting, so I asked. Apparently it would be quite a bang. (-:

There was a wonderful tale along these lines in George O. Smith's
classic "Venus Equilateral" series of SF short stories, back in the
1940s. In one of these, an experimenter needed some unreasonably
high capacitance for some reason or other, and promptly
whipped up a new "super-dielectric" - that just happened to be a
fluid. Our Hero comes across this set-up, with all the glassware that
made up this "super-cap", does a quick calculation as to what would
happen to the voltage across the thing should the dielectric leak out,
and promptly orders it dismantled...

Bob M.

 

[Mark Carroll]

In article <20031013032054.10790.00000215@mb-m15.aol.com>,
BretCahill <bretcahill@aol.com> wrote:

Some well intentioned daydreamer wants to store energy in motor vehicles with
capacitors.

Does anyone know the size of a 60 kW hr capacitor?

No, but apparently capacitors of the order of 1000F or so can be made
surprisingly small these days, through doing clever things with
"rough" surfaces that have a high surface area. This sort of thing
does turn out to possibly be useful in automotive applications. (I
just came back from a meeting at an automotive research place that
mentioned them.)

If the dielectric failed in a crash, what size crater are we looking at?

Well, that's a good question: I read your article before going to the
meeting, so I asked. Apparently it would be quite a bang. (-:

-- Mark

 

[John Jardine]

BretCahill <bretcahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031013032054.10790.00000215@mb-m15.aol.com...

Some well intentioned daydreamer wants to store energy in motor vehicles
with
capacitors.

Does anyone know the size of a 60 kW hr capacitor?

If the dielectric failed in a crash, what size crater are we looking at?

Just some ballpark calculations.


Bret Cahill


The cap' holds 216MJ. This is equiv' to 0.05 tons (112 lbs, 1cwt, 50kgm) of

TNT. At the burning rate of TNT, this is equiv' to a 30' crater.

 

[Mark Carroll]

In article <3f8b192a@usenet01.boi.hp.com>,
Bob Myers <nospamplease@addressinvalid.com> wrote:

"Mark Carroll" <markc@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:F2f*t9R4p@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
(snip)
No, but apparently capacitors of the order of 1000F or so can be made
surprisingly small these days, through doing clever things with
"rough" surfaces that have a high surface area.

Sure - but 1000F at what working voltage? High capacitance
per se is NOT the goal of what Frank ("ferrguy") THINKS
he's doing, but rather energy density. And thanks to the way
(snip)

I'm afraid I don't know - I know they could get a good few hundred
amps out for a bit, at presumably some sensible voltage, and at least
it was credible enough, from the point of view of their simulations
and their knowledge of what could be made, that it seemed a useful
thing to investigate, but I didn't ask at /what/ voltage. ):

(snip)

Yes, but not as the primary energy storage device.
(snip wonderful tale (-

Indeed.

-- Mark

 

[CWatters]

If thats "Ferguy" don't waste your time. I think he's a troll. He has no
propsals that make any sense and has had this explained to him many times.
After a few weeks he's back to restart the same EER thread. He talks about
making better capacitors that store energy using "inner space" whatever that
is - he never explains.

Capacitors ARE being used to power prototype busses and vans in Japan (and
the USA?), they have also been used as battery replacements for applications
like starting diesel motors on trains - but Ferguy isn't interested in
these. Try a web search on "super capacitors".



"BretCahill" <bretcahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031013032054.10790.00000215@mb-m15.aol.com...

Some well intentioned daydreamer wants to store energy in motor vehicles
with
capacitors.

Does anyone know the size of a 60 kW hr capacitor?

If the dielectric failed in a crash, what size crater are we looking at?

Just some ballpark calculations.


Bret Cahill

 

[CWatters]

http://evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=338


"BretCahill" <bretcahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031013032054.10790.00000215@mb-m15.aol.com...

Some well intentioned daydreamer wants to store energy in motor vehicles
with
capacitors.

Does anyone know the size of a 60 kW hr capacitor?

If the dielectric failed in a crash, what size crater are we looking at?

Just some ballpark calculations.


Bret Cahill

 

[FEerguy9]

"Mark Carroll" <markc@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:F2f*t9R4p@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
In article <20031013032054.10790.00000215@mb-m15.aol.com>,
BretCahill <bretcahill@aol.com> wrote:
Some well intentioned daydreamer wants to store energy in motor vehicles
with
capacitors.

Does anyone know the size of a 60 kW hr capacitor?

No, but apparently capacitors of the order of 1000F or so can be made
surprisingly small these days, through doing clever things with
"rough" surfaces that have a high surface area.

Sure - but 1000F at what working voltage? High capacitance
per se is NOT the goal of what Frank ("ferrguy")

FEerguy, thank you.

THINKS

he's doing, but rather energy density. And thanks to the way
that energy storage depends not on capacitance alone, but rather
the amount of charge you can hold >>>at a given voltage<<<,
he's SOL.

This sort of thing
does turn out to possibly be useful in automotive applications. (I
just came back from a meeting at an automotive research place that
mentioned them.)

Yes, but not as the primary energy storage device.

Well, that's a good question: I read your article before going to the
meeting, so I asked. Apparently it would be quite a bang. (-:

There was a wonderful tale along these lines in George O. Smith's
classic "Venus Equilateral" series of SF short stories, back in the
1940s. In one of these, an experimenter needed some unreasonably
high capacitance for some reason or other, and promptly
whipped up a new "super-dielectric" - that just happened to be a
fluid. Our Hero comes across this set-up, with all the glassware that
made up this "super-cap", does a quick calculation as to what would
happen to the voltage across the thing should the dielectric leak out,
and promptly orders it dismantled...

Bob M.

 

[FEerguy9]

If thats "Ferguy" don't waste your time. I think he's a troll. He has no
propsals that make any sense and has had this explained to him many times.
After a few weeks he's back to restart the same EER thread. He talks about
making better capacitors that store energy using "inner space" whatever that
is - he never explains.

Capacitors ARE being used to power prototype busses and vans in Japan (and
the USA?), they have also been used as battery replacements for applications
like starting diesel motors on trains - but Ferguy isn't interested in
these.

NOPE. Because the The big-assed busses have big-assed capacitor plates.

Try THAT on an every-day vehicle!

My whole deal is that we could create vast surface area within a small
perimeter.


Frank

 

[Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun]

In article <20031013032054.10790.00000215@mb-m15.aol.com>,
bretcahill@aol.com mentioned...

Some well intentioned daydreamer wants to store energy in motor vehicles with
capacitors.

Does anyone know the size of a 60 kW hr capacitor?

If the dielectric failed in a crash, what size crater are we looking at?

Just some ballpark calculations.

How about several thousand farads.
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/large_cell.html
note last paragraph: http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/
FAQ: http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/support/faq.html

Bret Cahill

--
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[Uwe Bonnes]

John Jardine <john@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

: The cap' holds 216MJ. This is equiv' to 0.05 tons (112 lbs, 1cwt, 50kgm) of
: TNT. At the burning rate of TNT, this is equiv' to a 30' crater.

High voltage capacitors discharge at much higher speed...

Bye
--
Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------

 

[BretCahill]

Maybe vehicles could get their power from
the road. A capacitor might take you a
mile down the road between stations.

feerguy9@cs.com (FEerguy9) in

Message-id: <20031014060808.15549.00000685@mb-m28.news.cs.com> writes:

.. . .

My whole deal is that we could create vast surface area within a small
perimeter.

Sounds like that would increase the size
as well as the likelihood of the crater.

Nevertheless I think it's worthwhile to
research, even if you don't get too far.

Just do the test crashes out on a field.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bob Myers]

"FEerguy9" <feerguy9@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20031014060808.15549.00000685@mb-m28.news.cs.com...

My whole deal is that we could create vast surface area within a small
perimeter.

But of course, you never say HOW. Your whole "innerspace"
idea is silly in the extreme, and CANNOT increase energy
density, as has been shown to you many times. It increases
CAPACITANCE, but at the expense of working voltage,
for ANY dielectric. So you lose in the energy density. Get
it? (He asks, utterly without hope of success...)

Bob M.

 

[CWatters]

"FEerguy9" <feerguy9@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20031014060808.15549.00000685@mb-m28.news.cs.com...

My whole deal is that we could create vast surface area within a small
perimeter.

Yes but how? That's what everyone who ever worked on capacitors wants to
achieve. Not least those designing capacitors for things like cell phones
and other mobile devices. They need small caps too.

My house could do with the same treatment.

 

[Bob Myers]

"Watson A.Name - Watt Sun" <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Just some ballpark calculations.

How about several thousand farads.
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/large_cell.html
note last paragraph: http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/
FAQ: http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/support/faq.html

Right - and note that the basic "cell" is still going to be 10F at
TWO AND A HALF VOLTS, in a package of 24 x 33 x 4.5 mm
(or about 0.22 cubic inches).

E = 0.5CV^2 = (0.5)(10)(2.5)^2 = 31.25 J

A basic carbon-zinc "AA" cell provides over 5,000 J and is
about half a cubic inch - so this "ultracap" has not quite
1/80 the energy density of this very old, practically obsolete
dry cell technology.


Bob M.

 

[CWatters]

Using 18 x GP3300 NiMH cells you can make a battery which holds 132,000
Joules and weighs just over 1Kg. (1.1Kg to be precise). 132,000J is about as
much energy as is released by 30 grams (one ounce) of TNT when it explodes.



"Bob Myers" <nospamplease@addressinvalid.com> wrote in message
news:3f8c204a$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com...

"Watson A.Name - Watt Sun" <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Just some ballpark calculations.

How about several thousand farads.
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/large_cell.html
note last paragraph: http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/
FAQ: http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/support/faq.html

Right - and note that the basic "cell" is still going to be 10F at
TWO AND A HALF VOLTS, in a package of 24 x 33 x 4.5 mm
(or about 0.22 cubic inches).

E = 0.5CV^2 = (0.5)(10)(2.5)^2 = 31.25 J

A basic carbon-zinc "AA" cell provides over 5,000 J and is
about half a cubic inch - so this "ultracap" has not quite
1/80 the energy density of this very old, practically obsolete
dry cell technology.


Bob M.

 

[BretCahill]

DARPA will fund novel explosive devices.

And so will Islamic Jihad.

feerguy9@cs.com (FEerguy9) in

Message-id: <20031014060808.15549.00000685@mb-m28.news.cs.com> writes:

.. . .

My whole deal is that we could create vast surface area within a small
perimeter.