Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

K

Kevin Neilson

Guest
I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can be
compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a Shannon
entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have a
Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?
-Kevin
 
"Kevin Neilson" <kevin_neilson@removethiscomcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZzCob.71991$Fm2.57178@attbi_s04...
Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?
Click to expand...
Yes. Hawking can.
 
Kevin Neilson wrote:
Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?
Click to expand...
Sounds like just the place for a
First In Never Out (FINO) transmit buffer.

-- Mike Treseler
 
Kevin,

Really quite easy.

Just read http://www.mdpi.org/entropy/papers/e3010012.pdf

Now after you have read it, go get a stiff drink ....and then fall into a
troubled sleep.

As you toss and turn having nightmares about information horizons, and gravity
strings, remember what the White Rabbit said: "feed your hair."

How many bits can fit on the surface of a black hole? (2003)

How many Angel's can fit on the head of a pin? (1536)

A question for every age.

Austin

Kevin Neilson wrote:

I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can be
compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a Shannon
entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have a
Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?
-Kevin
Click to expand...
 
"Austin Lesea" <Austin.Lesea@xilinx.com> wrote in message
news:3FA3000A.45C10F96@xilinx.com...
How many bits can fit on the surface of a black hole? (2003)
Click to expand...

Actually the entropy of a black hole works out to be about 10^66 bits/ cm^2.


Clay
 
Mike Treseler wrote:

Kevin Neilson wrote:

Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?


Sounds like just the place for a
First In Never Out (FINO) transmit buffer.

-- Mike Treseler

Is that FINO or AMONTILLADO?
Click to expand...

jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
 
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:43:36 -0500, "Clay S. Turner"
<physics@bellsouth.net> wrote:

"Austin Lesea" <Austin.Lesea@xilinx.com> wrote in message
news:3FA3000A.45C10F96@xilinx.com...

How many bits can fit on the surface of a black hole? (2003)

Actually the entropy of a black hole works out to be about 10^66 bits/ cm^2.

Clay
Click to expand...
I've worked with people denser than that.


Or so it seemed, anyway...


Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org
 
"Kevin Neilson" <kevin_neilson@removethiscomcast.net> wrote in message news:<ZzCob.71991$Fm2.57178@attbi_s04>...
I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can be
compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a Shannon
entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have a
Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?
-Kevin
Click to expand...
I am really curious to know how thermodynamic entropy differs from
Shannon's -if both based on "disorderness". Hawking's popular book
"brief history of time" has a chapter on "arrow of time" which
referred themodynamical entropy and at the same time "orderness" due
to expansion of universe- bit abstract!

Since we know entrpy of the universe increases - it is interesting
what will happen to Shannon's entropy (if it is related!)- does
information of the universe increase-big question!!!

santosh
 
Mike Treseler <mike.treseler@flukenetworks.com> wrote in message news:<3FA2FC98.4030800@flukenetworks.com>...
Kevin Neilson wrote:
Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?

Sounds like just the place for a
First In Never Out (FINO) transmit buffer.

-- Mike Treseler
Click to expand...
I had to debug somebody else's hardware that implemented a FINO

He had invented the wonderful new memory type... 2K by 8 WOM

Write-Only Memory :)

Ian
 
"Kevin Neilson" <kevin_neilson@removethiscomcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZzCob.71991$Fm2.57178@attbi_s04...
I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can
be
compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a
Shannon
entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have
a
Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?
-Kevin
Click to expand...
For the ignorant (me): what it Entropy?

Rich
 
I had to debug somebody else's hardware that implemented a FINO

He had invented the wonderful new memory type... 2K by 8 WOM

Write-Only Memory :)

Ian
Click to expand...
Hi Ian.

Sorry but my WOM has 1Mbitx16, it´s implemented on strained silicon,
has a life expectancy of almost 10 write cycles and I think it doesn't
loose it contents when power is turned off (for obvious reasons I
couldn't test this) :)

I'm looking for funds to maintain this important research. Anyone?

Luiz Carlos
 
John,

Falling apart. What everything does (eventually).

What you and I are doing right now (getting older, and falling apart).

Austin

John Smith wrote:

"Kevin Neilson" <kevin_neilson@removethiscomcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZzCob.71991$Fm2.57178@attbi_s04...
I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can
be
compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a
Shannon
entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have
a
Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?
-Kevin



For the ignorant (me): what it Entropy?

Rich
Click to expand...
 
"Austin Lesea" <Austin.Lesea@xilinx.com> wrote in message
news:3FA3000A.45C10F96@xilinx.com...
Kevin,

Really quite easy.

Just read http://www.mdpi.org/entropy/papers/e3010012.pdf

Now after you have read it, go get a stiff drink ....and then fall into a
troubled sleep.

As you toss and turn having nightmares about information horizons, and
gravity
strings, remember what the White Rabbit said: "feed your hair."
Click to expand...
I thought it was "feed your head."
 
John Smith wrote:

"Kevin Neilson" <kevin_neilson@removethiscomcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZzCob.71991$Fm2.57178@attbi_s04...

I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can

be

compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a

Shannon

entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have

a

Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?
-Kevin




For the ignorant (me): what it Entropy?

Rich

http://www.2ndlaw.com/ will be a good start. Note that if S is entropy, q
Click to expand...
the amount of heat -- BTU, Calories -- and T absolute temperature,
S = Integral(dQ/T).
Simplifying: heat, like water, runs downhill, and unless something like a
waterwheel or a heat engine extracts energy when it does, some of what
had been available energy is permanently lost. The water or heat is all
still there, and so is the energy -- just not available. Lost available
energy shows up as increased entropy.

Two Laws of Thermodynamics have been stated thus:

You can't get something for nothing. Water had to be pumped up before it
ran down to turn the wheel.

You can't even break even. (The second law is about entropy.) Because of
inevitable inefficiencies -- friction or moving heat across a temperature
gradient, entropy will increase, and you won't get all of the energy out.

Let's leave the Third Law for some other time.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
 
that's enough guys..., black hole normaly holds 1, or 2,...but sometimes up to 5 boys and girls (please check guiness book), noting to do with the surface except for its decoration attractiveness
 
santosh nath wrote:
I am really curious to know how thermodynamic entropy differs from
Shannon's
Click to expand...
There is some controversy about this. The two ideas are fundamentally
distinct and it is unfortunate that they have the same name. They
are related, of course, but the relationship is something that has
to be spelled out carefully. In my opinion the best work on this is
a paper Ed Jaynes wrote for the Am. J. Phys. You'll find it here:

http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/node1.html

"Gibbs vs. Boltzmann Entropies", article 21. I believe Anton Garrett
wrote a lengthy paper spelling it out further based on Jaynes's argument;
I think it was in *Foundations of Physics* several years ago.

This isn't trivial stuff; good luck studying it!

-Tom

--

To respond by email, replace "somewhere" with "astro" in the
return address.
 
Kevin Neilson wrote:
Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?

Sounds like just the place for a
First In Never Out (FINO) transmit buffer.

-- Mike Treseler

I had to debug somebody else's hardware that implemented a FINO

He had invented the wonderful new memory type... 2K by 8 WOM

Write-Only Memory :)

Ian
Click to expand...
Ian,
Signetics invented this 30 years ago!
try :- http://www.ariplex.com/tina/tsignet1.htm
Syms.
 
"Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:bo69ks$a3e$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
John Smith wrote:

"Kevin Neilson" <kevin_neilson@removethiscomcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZzCob.71991$Fm2.57178@attbi_s04...

I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information
can

be

compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a

Shannon

entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes
have

a

Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon.
I
was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?
-Kevin




For the ignorant (me): what it Entropy?

Rich

http://www.2ndlaw.com/ will be a good start. Note that if S is entropy, q
the amount of heat -- BTU, Calories -- and T absolute temperature,
S = Integral(dQ/T).
Simplifying: heat, like water, runs downhill, and unless something like a
waterwheel or a heat engine extracts energy when it does, some of what
had been available energy is permanently lost. The water or heat is all
still there, and so is the energy -- just not available. Lost available
energy shows up as increased entropy.

Two Laws of Thermodynamics have been stated thus:

You can't get something for nothing. Water had to be pumped up before it
ran down to turn the wheel.

You can't even break even. (The second law is about entropy.) Because of
inevitable inefficiencies -- friction or moving heat across a temperature
gradient, entropy will increase, and you won't get all of the energy out.

Let's leave the Third Law for some other time.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
Click to expand...
Aggghhhh.... I'm gonna be on 2ndlaw.com, and its sister, I may be a while...

Thanks for the answers guys. 'Lost' energy (non-recoverable energy) is my
summary. Correct?

Thanks again
JS
 
John,

Nope. 1st law says that energy is conserved. Can not lose it.

Austin


John Smith wrote:

"Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:bo69ks$a3e$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
John Smith wrote:

"Kevin Neilson" <kevin_neilson@removethiscomcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZzCob.71991$Fm2.57178@attbi_s04...

I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information
can

be

compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a

Shannon

entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes
have

a

Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon.
I
was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?
-Kevin




For the ignorant (me): what it Entropy?

Rich

http://www.2ndlaw.com/ will be a good start. Note that if S is entropy, q
the amount of heat -- BTU, Calories -- and T absolute temperature,
S = Integral(dQ/T).
Simplifying: heat, like water, runs downhill, and unless something like a
waterwheel or a heat engine extracts energy when it does, some of what
had been available energy is permanently lost. The water or heat is all
still there, and so is the energy -- just not available. Lost available
energy shows up as increased entropy.

Two Laws of Thermodynamics have been stated thus:

You can't get something for nothing. Water had to be pumped up before it
ran down to turn the wheel.

You can't even break even. (The second law is about entropy.) Because of
inevitable inefficiencies -- friction or moving heat across a temperature
gradient, entropy will increase, and you won't get all of the energy out.

Let's leave the Third Law for some other time.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ


Aggghhhh.... I'm gonna be on 2ndlaw.com, and its sister, I may be a while...

Thanks for the answers guys. 'Lost' energy (non-recoverable energy) is my
summary. Correct?

Thanks again
JS
Click to expand...
 
Austin Lesea wrote:
John,

Nope. 1st law says that energy is conserved. Can not lose it.

Austin

John Smith wrote:

Aggghhhh.... I'm gonna be on 2ndlaw.com, and its sister, I may be a while...

Thanks for the answers guys. 'Lost' energy (non-recoverable energy) is my
summary. Correct?

Thanks again
JS
Click to expand...
John,

Don't let this confuse you. In reality "lost" energy is still energy.
But it is lost in the sense that you can't do anything useful with it.
It becomes spread out evenly as heat otherwise known as "disorder".
Only "orderly" forms of energy can be used.

Heat is only useful (orderly) if there is more of it here than there,
then you can get some useful work from it by tapping it as it flows from
here to there. But then both here and there are at the same temperature
and you can do no more work with that energy. In that sense, it is
"lost".

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
 
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