Sensing small inductances

B

bitrex

Guest
Microcontroller-based strategies like this work OK for high-Q inductances:

<http://www.pa3fwm.nl/technotes/tn11b.html

But don't work too good for little random-wire very lossy inductances,
of values around 0.5uH to 5uH, at the lower excitation frequencies that
microprocessors can easily provide from direct pin-switching system
clock-derived outputs. e.g. inductaors that have self-resonant
frequencies in the 100s of MHz.

I was thinking the small inductance could have its effective Q boosted
via boostrapping, perhaps (I'm kinda down on negative impedance
circuits, now, you can make some cute circuits with them but they all
obv. tend towards being unstable and are "fiddly" and I'm uncomfortable
using them in "real work")

and then you could measure a certain range of small inductances by
applying a clock to a tank circuit thru a resistor, and putting the
original clock plus the output from the tank into a phase detector a la
a PLL and look at the integrated leading or lagging phase "up/down"
signal to infer the inductance.

It might need little external hardware other than the Q-booster in some
implementation. Clock out to the tank and leading/lagging phase signal
back in to the uP to an onboard comparator/phase detector and integrator.

For my particular solution needs whatever form it takes, it would be
best to trade of absolute accuracy for precision/repeatability.
 
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
<user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

Microcontroller-based strategies like this work OK for high-Q inductances:

http://www.pa3fwm.nl/technotes/tn11b.html

But don't work too good for little random-wire very lossy inductances,
of values around 0.5uH to 5uH,

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/
 
On 8/25/19 1:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

Microcontroller-based strategies like this work OK for high-Q inductances:

http://www.pa3fwm.nl/technotes/tn11b.html

But don't work too good for little random-wire very lossy inductances,
of values around 0.5uH to 5uH,

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/

+/- 10 nH not quite sufficient +/- 1 would be better, but the
two-variable, dual-frequency measurement technique I think will help a lot
 
On 8/25/19 1:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

Microcontroller-based strategies like this work OK for high-Q inductances:

http://www.pa3fwm.nl/technotes/tn11b.html

But don't work too good for little random-wire very lossy inductances,
of values around 0.5uH to 5uH,

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/

The math is clever, I wonder what would happen if you used a bank of
Cref capacitors and instead of a two variable, two unknown system you
used e.g. four measurement frequencies and did the math on a system of
larger order. would that improve resolution? accuracy? precision?
 
On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 4:26:05 PM UTC+10, bitrex wrote:
On 8/25/19 1:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

Microcontroller-based strategies like this work OK for high-Q inductances:

http://www.pa3fwm.nl/technotes/tn11b.html

But don't work too good for little random-wire very lossy inductances,
of values around 0.5uH to 5uH,

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/

The math is clever, I wonder what would happen if you used a bank of
Cref capacitors and instead of a two variable, two unknown system you
used e.g. four measurement frequencies and did the math on a system of
larger order. would that improve resolution? accuracy? precision?

You'd end up with an over-determined set of equations and would have to use a least square multi-parameter error minimisng scheme to extract the most likely solutions (and confidence limits). I did that in my Ph.D. project - it should be easier now.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On 8/25/2019 12:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

Microcontroller-based strategies like this work OK for high-Q inductances:

http://www.pa3fwm.nl/technotes/tn11b.html

But don't work too good for little random-wire very lossy inductances,
of values around 0.5uH to 5uH,

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/

Print and put in values.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p45c2kjgubpspxg/pan%27s%20schematic%20db.jpg?dl=0

Mikek
 
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...
Jan Panteltje wrote:
amdx wrote
Jan Panteltje wrote:
bitrex wrote

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/

Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.

Your schematics are unreadable. I don't even try.

I'm often curious, but can not read them.
Jan, why are they so dark, with such a poor
contrast ratio? How do you even do that?


--
Thanks,
- Win
 
On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 10:17:07 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
<qig5med1kr6iqm86vk2gkogq157162qvp1@4ax.com>:

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 17:02:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:07:04 -0500) it happened amdx
nojunk@knology.net> wrote in <qjubn7$aqf$1@dont-email.me>:

On 8/25/2019 12:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/


Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.

Your schematics are unreadable. I don't even try.

You could learn something, but WTF do I care,
I do not use your products.
 
On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 17:02:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:07:04 -0500) it happened amdx
nojunk@knology.net> wrote in <qjubn7$aqf$1@dont-email.me>:

On 8/25/2019 12:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/


Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.

Your schematics are unreadable. I don't even try.
 
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

Microcontroller-based strategies like this work OK for high-Q inductances:

http://www.pa3fwm.nl/technotes/tn11b.html

But don't work too good for little random-wire very lossy inductances,
of values around 0.5uH to 5uH, at the lower excitation frequencies that
microprocessors can easily provide from direct pin-switching system
clock-derived outputs. e.g. inductaors that have self-resonant
frequencies in the 100s of MHz.

I was thinking the small inductance could have its effective Q boosted
via boostrapping, perhaps (I'm kinda down on negative impedance
circuits, now, you can make some cute circuits with them but they all
obv. tend towards being unstable and are "fiddly" and I'm uncomfortable
using them in "real work")

and then you could measure a certain range of small inductances by
applying a clock to a tank circuit thru a resistor, and putting the
original clock plus the output from the tank into a phase detector a la
a PLL and look at the integrated leading or lagging phase "up/down"
signal to infer the inductance.

It might need little external hardware other than the Q-booster in some
implementation. Clock out to the tank and leading/lagging phase signal
back in to the uP to an onboard comparator/phase detector and integrator.

For my particular solution needs whatever form it takes, it would be
best to trade of absolute accuracy for precision/repeatability.

The great little AADE meter has an oscillator circuit that always
oscillates, and a uP based frequency meter. It works very well for a
simple instrument, and does a few nH pretty well. The schematic is
online somewhere.

Making an oscillator is morally equivalent to boosting an inductor's
Q, and has the same problems at low Q.

Inductors have ohmic losses and shunt capacitance that will fool any
simple instrument. I like to connect a function generator and a scope
across an inductor and sweep the frequency, to spot the region where
actual L dominates, then park in the middle of that region and
calculate L. And see the other stuff.

Really small Ls can be TDRd too.
 
On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:07:04 -0500) it happened amdx
<nojunk@knology.net> wrote in <qjubn7$aqf$1@dont-email.me>:

On 8/25/2019 12:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/


Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.
 
On a sunny day (25 Aug 2019 10:38:32 -0700) it happened Winfield Hill
<winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote in <qjuh2o0v42@drn.newsguy.com>:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

Jan Panteltje wrote:
amdx wrote
Jan Panteltje wrote:
bitrex wrote

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/

Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.

Your schematics are unreadable. I don't even try.

I'm often curious, but can not read them.
Jan, why are they so dark, with such a poor
contrast ratio? How do you even do that?

I dunno, I have no problem reading those in my browser,
or Linux 'xv' viewer or whatever,

Often I wonder (video is my background) if people even know how to adjust a monitor,
These pictures are of schematics I use to build the stuff,
so 100% of info is there or it would have to be so obvious I omitted it.
I do not sell kits.
All the babble .. read the asm source it clearly shows in ASCII what is connected to what.
If anybody actually builds this thing they can ask.
The explanation text in the link I gave is 100% simple for anybody known in the art,

And if you cannot read it or understand it, so be it,

As to the art, if you cannot read a component value and understand what sort of magnitude say 'resistor' must be there
you need to do more experimenting, not so many silly simulations.

Next somebody will say: 'Oh and I cannot read PIC asm..'
There is no end to not understanding
somebody once wrote something like 'hydrogen is the most present thing in the universe but for stupidity'
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/01/09/hydrogen/
different versions of it.

I am not referring to you, I know you know the stuff.
Jo.La. has a bunch of payed slaves working out details for him...
Some other one is into crystal radios and refuses to look up super-heterodyne
even offered me a deal LOL.
No hope there.

Hawaiian War Chant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY0ThFAp0Bc

:)
 
On 8/25/19 1:34 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 10:17:07 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
qig5med1kr6iqm86vk2gkogq157162qvp1@4ax.com>:

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 17:02:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:07:04 -0500) it happened amdx
nojunk@knology.net> wrote in <qjubn7$aqf$1@dont-email.me>:

On 8/25/2019 12:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/


Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.

Your schematics are unreadable. I don't even try.

You could learn something, but WTF do I care,
I do not use your products.

engineers looking at schematics like good gracious! why it's just awful!
/hand to forehead, swoon

I thought women were supposedly the dramatic ones
 
On 8/25/19 1:34 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 10:17:07 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
qig5med1kr6iqm86vk2gkogq157162qvp1@4ax.com>:

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 17:02:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:07:04 -0500) it happened amdx
nojunk@knology.net> wrote in <qjubn7$aqf$1@dont-email.me>:

On 8/25/2019 12:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/


Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.

Your schematics are unreadable. I don't even try.

You could learn something, but WTF do I care,
I do not use your products.

these dudes just being dramatic.
 
On 8/25/19 1:17 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 17:02:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:07:04 -0500) it happened amdx
nojunk@knology.net> wrote in <qjubn7$aqf$1@dont-email.me>:

On 8/25/2019 12:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/


Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.

Your schematics are unreadable. I don't even try.

they're not that bad.

I've seen way worse, at least.
 
On 8/25/19 1:14 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

Microcontroller-based strategies like this work OK for high-Q inductances:

http://www.pa3fwm.nl/technotes/tn11b.html

But don't work too good for little random-wire very lossy inductances,
of values around 0.5uH to 5uH, at the lower excitation frequencies that
microprocessors can easily provide from direct pin-switching system
clock-derived outputs. e.g. inductaors that have self-resonant
frequencies in the 100s of MHz.

I was thinking the small inductance could have its effective Q boosted
via boostrapping, perhaps (I'm kinda down on negative impedance
circuits, now, you can make some cute circuits with them but they all
obv. tend towards being unstable and are "fiddly" and I'm uncomfortable
using them in "real work")

and then you could measure a certain range of small inductances by
applying a clock to a tank circuit thru a resistor, and putting the
original clock plus the output from the tank into a phase detector a la
a PLL and look at the integrated leading or lagging phase "up/down"
signal to infer the inductance.

It might need little external hardware other than the Q-booster in some
implementation. Clock out to the tank and leading/lagging phase signal
back in to the uP to an onboard comparator/phase detector and integrator.

For my particular solution needs whatever form it takes, it would be
best to trade of absolute accuracy for precision/repeatability.

The great little AADE meter has an oscillator circuit that always
oscillates, and a uP based frequency meter. It works very well for a
simple instrument, and does a few nH pretty well. The schematic is
online somewhere.

Making an oscillator is morally equivalent to boosting an inductor's
Q, and has the same problems at low Q.

Q is a function of frequency so whether the inductor needs its Q
boosted, or not, depends on what frequency you want it to oscillate at.

Most simple oscillator circuits don't tend to have enough loop gain to
make random scramble-wire inductance that might have a self-resonant
frequency in the hundreds of MHz ring reliably in a resonant tank down
at single-digit MHz frequencies a cheap uP could handle with its (cheap)
on-board peripherals.

A couple topologies like say the Pierce with things tuned exactly right
seem to sometimes, but naturally at <<< than the self resonant freq with
a low Q down there the freq stability over time and noise performance is
junk.

Inductors have ohmic losses and shunt capacitance that will fool any
simple instrument. I like to connect a function generator and a scope
across an inductor and sweep the frequency, to spot the region where
actual L dominates, then park in the middle of that region and
calculate L. And see the other stuff.

Really small Ls can be TDRd too.

Both fine techniques for the bench but not workable for a
production-thing with a tighter budget.

However what I'm mainly interested in being able to detect relative
differences between random-wires inductances with precision, and less
concern about absolute accuracy as compared to some reference standard.
 
On 8/25/2019 12:02 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:07:04 -0500) it happened amdx
nojunk@knology.net> wrote in <qjubn7$aqf$1@dont-email.me>:

On 8/25/2019 12:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/


Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.
Maybe both!
Mikek
 
On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:06:54 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 8/25/19 1:34 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 10:17:07 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
qig5med1kr6iqm86vk2gkogq157162qvp1@4ax.com>:

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 17:02:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:07:04 -0500) it happened amdx
nojunk@knology.net> wrote in <qjubn7$aqf$1@dont-email.me>:

On 8/25/2019 12:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/


Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.

Your schematics are unreadable. I don't even try.

You could learn something, but WTF do I care,
I do not use your products.


engineers looking at schematics like good gracious! why it's just awful!
/hand to forehead, swoon

I thought women were supposedly the dramatic ones

I thought engineering drawings were supposed to be clear and precise.
I assume he draws like that on purpose.

ps - your misogyny is apparent again
 
On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 18:18:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (25 Aug 2019 10:38:32 -0700) it happened Winfield Hill
winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote in <qjuh2o0v42@drn.newsguy.com>:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

Jan Panteltje wrote:
amdx wrote
Jan Panteltje wrote:
bitrex wrote

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/

Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.

Your schematics are unreadable. I don't even try.

I'm often curious, but can not read them.
Jan, why are they so dark, with such a poor
contrast ratio? How do you even do that?

I dunno, I have no problem reading those in my browser,
or Linux 'xv' viewer or whatever,

Often I wonder (video is my background) if people even know how to adjust a monitor,
These pictures are of schematics I use to build the stuff,
so 100% of info is there or it would have to be so obvious I omitted it.
I do not sell kits.
All the babble .. read the asm source it clearly shows in ASCII what is connected to what.
If anybody actually builds this thing they can ask.
The explanation text in the link I gave is 100% simple for anybody known in the art,

And if you cannot read it or understand it, so be it,

As to the art, if you cannot read a component value and understand what sort of magnitude say 'resistor' must be there
you need to do more experimenting, not so many silly simulations.

Next somebody will say: 'Oh and I cannot read PIC asm..'
There is no end to not understanding
somebody once wrote something like 'hydrogen is the most present thing in the universe but for stupidity'
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/01/09/hydrogen/
different versions of it.

I am not referring to you, I know you know the stuff.
Jo.La. has a bunch of payed slaves working out details for him...

Very well paid slaves. We design things together, and we share clear,
precise drawings.

Each project has a responsible engineer, which is sometimes me,
usually someone else. We create a project folder on a shared server,
where we leave a design notes folder for sharing ideas now, and for
future reference.

Sure, sometimes I get help on my projects, and sometimes I help people
on theirs. It's fun and we all learn stuff.

We also document all breadboards and experiments. Clearly.

You can read your drawings because you are intimately familiar with
them; we aren't and can't.
 
On Aug 25, 2019, Jan Panteltje wrote
(in article <qjuf09$uj9$1@dont-email.me>):

On a sunny day (Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:07:04 -0500) it happened amdx
nojunk@knology.net> wrote in<qjubn7$aqf$1@dont-email.me>:

On 8/25/2019 12:24 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:31:00 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in<Vhn8F.85134$9i3.23186@fx42.iad>:

http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/lc_pic/

Print and put in values.

Get a real monitor and /or see an eye doctor.

I can read them, but it isn´t always easy.
If you tell your camera that the picture is largely white, it will take far
better photos (by rendering the paper as white, versus 18% gray). Sometimes
one must lie to the camera to get it to do this, but a few experiments will
tell the tale.

Joe Gwinn
 

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