Semi-conductor Question

B

Bob Villa

Guest
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC motor.
Where do you find them? (I think I sent for one thru Popular Science
mag at the time)
Thanks
 
In article
<e6651839-0b72-4722-9a06-4ca6557c386d@h19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Bob Villa <pheeh.zero@gmail.com> wrote:

Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC motor.
Where do you find them? (I think I sent for one thru Popular Science
mag at the time)
Thanks
Click to expand...
I don't know about a solid state version. But, there are
electro-mechanical versions that are quite common on motors less than
1 hp. They control the input to the start winding with a current
sensitive relay. When the motor is turned on the inrush current closes
the circuit to the start winding. When the motor gets up to speed and
the current drops to the run value the relay opens the circuit the the
start winding. I believe Klixon made them. You might try and google them.

CP
 
On Aug 20, 3:16 am, Bob Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC motor.
Where do you find them?  (I think I sent for one thru Popular Science
mag at the time)
Thanks
Click to expand...
Those relays are [were] commonly used on sealed refrigeration
compressor motors, so check out an appliance repair place or a heating/
air conditioning place.
Neil S.
 
"nesesu" <neil_sutcliffe@telus.net> wrote in message
news:518162d2-e047-4047-9146-46e73016df9d@s17g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 20, 3:16 am, Bob Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC motor.
Where do you find them? (I think I sent for one thru Popular Science
mag at the time)
Thanks
Click to expand...
Those relays are [were] commonly used on sealed refrigeration
compressor motors, so check out an appliance repair place or a heating/
air conditioning place.
Neil S.

---------------------------------------------

Some fridge motors use a PTC thermistor instead of a current sensing relay -
once or twice I've successfully bodged motors with failed thermistors by
using the thermistor from a CRT TV degauss posistor.
 
I've seen 3-wire starters that were marked Solid State (triac, presumably),
as replacement parts for current-type start relays, typically for
refrigeration compressor motors (fractional HP).

Places like Johnstone, or other suppliers for HVAC service folks should have
numerous models to choose from.
You may need to know a motor's specs, at least the LRA locked rotor amps
rating, to be able to make an informed selection of starter devices.

The following is a post from rec.crafts.metalworking..

I bought a couple of used Dayton (1/3 HP) bench grinders recently, and found
some
Klixon current-type motor starter relays being used instead of centrifugal
switches for switching between Start and Run windings in these small
split-phase 120VAC induction motors.
http://www.sensata.com/klixon/motor-protector-3cr.htm

I mention these relays because they would be a suitable replacement for
damaged mechanical components or switch contacts related to centrifugal
switches.

These relays are the types used with refrigeration and air conditioning
compressors, and also completely suitable for other split-phase motors. They
have a heavy duty winding that the motor current passes thru, not a separate
coil like common relays.
When the power is turned on, the relay is pulled in, to make contact to the
Start winding.
The starting amperage of the motor is initially high, but it drops as the
rotor approaches Run speed, the relay drops out, connecting the line voltage
to the Run winding.

There are charts of different models of the SR start relays (in PDFs at the
link above), but I didn't find any type of selector guide for choosing what
the appropriate amp ratings would be for various HP ratings.
The models of Klixon SRs I was looking at were applicable for motors up to
15A (3CR series), and the next larger series of SRs were for up to 25A, so
these ratings would cover nearly all single phase split-phase motors
(capacitor start or non-capacitor start) used in a home shop environment.

One particular aspect of the SRs is that they are gravity-dependent, and
therefore need to be installed with the proper end pointed up.
Aside from that, they are highly reliable starting devices, rated for about
1 million cycles.

The specific ratings used for a 1/3 HP bench grinder motor use an 11A
pull-in (Start) spec and a 6A drop-out (Run) spec.
Of course, larger motors would use higher rated specs for pull-in and
drop-out currents, and the ratings vary in tenths-of-an-ampere (11.5A/6.3A,
etc).

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Bob Villa" <pheeh.zero@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e6651839-0b72-4722-9a06-4ca6557c386d@h19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC motor.
Where do you find them? (I think I sent for one thru Popular Science
mag at the time)
Thanks
Click to expand...
 
On Aug 21, 11:45 am, "Wild_Bill" <wb_wildb...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
I've seen 3-wire starters that were marked Solid State (triac, presumably),
as replacement parts for current-type start relays, typically for
refrigeration compressor motors (fractional HP).

Places like Johnstone, or other suppliers for HVAC service folks should have
numerous models to choose from.
You may need to know a motor's specs, at least the LRA locked rotor amps
rating, to be able to make an informed selection of starter devices.

The following is a post from rec.crafts.metalworking..

I bought a couple of used Dayton (1/3 HP) bench grinders recently, and found
some
Klixon current-type motor starter relays being used instead of centrifugal
switches for switching between Start and Run windings in these small
split-phase 120VAC induction motors.http://www.sensata.com/klixon/motor-protector-3cr.htm

I mention these relays because they would be a suitable replacement for
damaged mechanical components or switch contacts related to centrifugal
switches.

These relays are the types used with refrigeration and air conditioning
compressors, and also completely suitable for other split-phase motors. They
have a heavy duty winding that the motor current passes thru, not a separate
coil like common relays.
When the power is turned on, the relay is pulled in, to make contact to the
Start winding.
The starting amperage of the motor is initially high, but it drops as the
rotor approaches Run speed, the relay drops out, connecting the line voltage
to the Run winding.

There are charts of different models of the SR start relays (in PDFs at the
link above), but I didn't find any type of selector guide for choosing what
the appropriate amp ratings would be for various HP ratings.
The models of Klixon SRs I was looking at were applicable for motors up to
15A (3CR series), and the next larger series of SRs were for up to 25A, so
these ratings would cover nearly all single phase split-phase motors
(capacitor start or non-capacitor start) used in a home shop environment.

One particular aspect of the SRs is that they are gravity-dependent, and
therefore need to be installed with the proper end pointed up.
Aside from that, they are highly reliable starting devices, rated for about
1 million cycles.

The specific ratings used for a 1/3 HP bench grinder motor use an 11A
pull-in (Start) spec and a 6A drop-out (Run) spec.
Of course, larger motors would use higher rated specs for pull-in and
drop-out currents, and the ratings vary in tenths-of-an-ampere (11.5A/6.3A,
etc).

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"Bob Villa" <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:e6651839-0b72-4722-9a06-4ca6557c386d@h19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC motor.
Where do you find them?  (I think I sent for one thru Popular Science
mag at the time)
Thanks
Click to expand...
This was a totally solid state device...like a timed triac that cuts-
out after a half second.
 
"Bob Villa" <pheeh.zero@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:126beb8d-b249-4fd5-a61e-7f1147491e5b@x25g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 21, 11:45 am, "Wild_Bill" <wb_wildb...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
I've seen 3-wire starters that were marked Solid State (triac,
presumably),
as replacement parts for current-type start relays, typically for
refrigeration compressor motors (fractional HP).

Places like Johnstone, or other suppliers for HVAC service folks should
have
numerous models to choose from.
You may need to know a motor's specs, at least the LRA locked rotor amps
rating, to be able to make an informed selection of starter devices.

The following is a post from rec.crafts.metalworking..

I bought a couple of used Dayton (1/3 HP) bench grinders recently, and
found
some
Klixon current-type motor starter relays being used instead of centrifugal
switches for switching between Start and Run windings in these small
split-phase 120VAC induction
motors.http://www.sensata.com/klixon/motor-protector-3cr.htm

I mention these relays because they would be a suitable replacement for
damaged mechanical components or switch contacts related to centrifugal
switches.

These relays are the types used with refrigeration and air conditioning
compressors, and also completely suitable for other split-phase motors.
They
have a heavy duty winding that the motor current passes thru, not a
separate
coil like common relays.
When the power is turned on, the relay is pulled in, to make contact to
the
Start winding.
The starting amperage of the motor is initially high, but it drops as the
rotor approaches Run speed, the relay drops out, connecting the line
voltage
to the Run winding.

There are charts of different models of the SR start relays (in PDFs at
the
link above), but I didn't find any type of selector guide for choosing
what
the appropriate amp ratings would be for various HP ratings.
The models of Klixon SRs I was looking at were applicable for motors up to
15A (3CR series), and the next larger series of SRs were for up to 25A, so
these ratings would cover nearly all single phase split-phase motors
(capacitor start or non-capacitor start) used in a home shop environment.

One particular aspect of the SRs is that they are gravity-dependent, and
therefore need to be installed with the proper end pointed up.
Aside from that, they are highly reliable starting devices, rated for
about
1 million cycles.

The specific ratings used for a 1/3 HP bench grinder motor use an 11A
pull-in (Start) spec and a 6A drop-out (Run) spec.
Of course, larger motors would use higher rated specs for pull-in and
drop-out currents, and the ratings vary in tenths-of-an-ampere
(11.5A/6.3A,
etc).

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"Bob Villa" <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:e6651839-0b72-4722-9a06-4ca6557c386d@h19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC motor.
Where do you find them? (I think I sent for one thru Popular Science
mag at the time)
Thanks
Click to expand...
This was a totally solid state device...like a timed triac that cuts-
out after a half second.

----------------------------------

If the motor is low powered, ie not too much bigger than a fridge motor, you
can use a CRT TV degauss unit, there are 2 different types of the 3 pin unit
so you have to make sure you know which and wire it accordingly.

The most common type has 2 PTC elements - one is in series with the load
(degauss coil - (or start winding)) and delivers a short burst of current
which decays as the current through it heats it and causes its resistance to
rise.

The second PTC element is wired directly across the mains (after the on/off
switch) so that its self heating also heats the first PTC turning the
current fully off.

The less common type of degauss unit is a combination PTC/NTC pair, the PTC
would go in series with the load as before, the NTC in this case would be in
series with the run winding - the NTC element provides inrush current
limiting as it has a high resistance at room temperature, falling to a low
resistance as the current flowing heats it up.

Once again the self heating of the NTC heats the PTC and switches off its
current.

The downside is that degauss units take a few minutes to cool after the
motor is switched off.
 
On Aug 20, 5:16 am, Bob Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC motor.
Where do you find them?  (I think I sent for one thru Popular Science
mag at the time)
Thanks
Click to expand...
It is amazing to me that they aren't commonly available!
 
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:17:04 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:

On Aug 20, 5:16 am, Bob Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take the
place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC motor. Where
do you find them?  (I think I sent for one thru Popular Science mag at
the time)
Thanks

It is amazing to me that they aren't commonly available!
Click to expand...


Google --- PLC module.

HTH

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
 
"Meat Plow" <mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.08.24.13.34.03@hahahahahahahah.nutz.I.am...
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:28:50 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:58 am, Meat Plow <mhyw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:17:04 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:
On Aug 20, 5:16 am, Bob Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC
motor. Where do you find them? (I think I sent for one thru Popular
Science mag at the time)
Thanks

It is amazing to me that they aren't commonly available!

Google --- PLC module.

HTH

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

Not even close. This was a small (a little larger than a postage
stamp), simple device. I remember using one on a 5 HP motor that
wouldn't start. It was for a bakery mixing machine.

Thermistor across the start cap?
Click to expand...

Already suggested - he seems to be ignoring it.

Murata make a range of motor start thermistors (posistor).

By the look of the picture on the front of the catalogue they may be plug in
replacements for existing start winding solenoids.
 
On Aug 23, 8:58 am, Meat Plow <mhyw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:17:04 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:
On Aug 20, 5:16 am, Bob Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take the
place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC motor. Where
do you find them?  (I think I sent for one thru Popular Science mag at
the time)
Thanks

It is amazing to me that they aren't commonly available!

Google --- PLC module.

HTH

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
Click to expand...
Not even close. This was a small (a little larger than a postage
stamp), simple device. I remember using one on a 5 HP motor that
wouldn't start. It was for a bakery mixing machine.
 
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:28:50 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:58 am, Meat Plow <mhyw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:17:04 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:
On Aug 20, 5:16 am, Bob Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC
motor. Where do you find them?  (I think I sent for one thru Popular
Science mag at the time)
Thanks

It is amazing to me that they aren't commonly available!

Google --- PLC module.

HTH

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

Not even close. This was a small (a little larger than a postage
stamp), simple device. I remember using one on a 5 HP motor that
wouldn't start. It was for a bakery mixing machine.
Click to expand...
Thermistor across the start cap?



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
 
"Bob Villa" <pheeh.zero@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fd2f25c7-ad0d-485b-ade5-868768239d3e@x25g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 24, 8:25 am, "ian field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
"Meat Plow" <mhyw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:pan.2010.08.24.13.34.03@hahahahahahahah.nutz.I.am...



On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:28:50 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:58 am, Meat Plow <mhyw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:17:04 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:
On Aug 20, 5:16 am, Bob Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC
motor. Where do you find them? (I think I sent for one thru Popular
Science mag at the time)
Thanks

It is amazing to me that they aren't commonly available!

Google --- PLC module.

HTH

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

Not even close. This was a small (a little larger than a postage
stamp), simple device. I remember using one on a 5 HP motor that
wouldn't start. It was for a bakery mixing machine.

Thermistor across the start cap?

Already suggested - he seems to be ignoring it.

Murata make a range of motor start thermistors (posistor).

By the look of the picture on the front of the catalogue they may be plug
in
replacements for existing start winding solenoids.
Click to expand...
There is no starting cap...it would take the place of a centrifugal
opening starting switch.
I'll Google posistor and see where that leads.
(thanks meathead for the comment-helpful indeed)


-------------------------------------------------

AFAIK Murata claim "posistor" as a registered trademark, but the word has
found its way into common usage by TV engineers to describe the PTC degauss
units for CRTs.
 
http://www.murata.com/products/catalog/pdf/k99/k99e_l0725.pdf
 
"Meat Plow" <mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.08.24.16.47.19@hahahahahahahah.nutz.I.am...
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 17:40:18 +0100, ian field wrote:

http://www.murata.com/products/catalog/pdf/k99/k99e_l0725.pdf

Yeah I mistyped PLC for PTC a couple replies ago.

Google --- PLC module.

Still that doesn't replace a centrifugal clutch directly although you
could probably jury-rig one.
Click to expand...

"clutch"?!
 
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:25:30 +0100, ian field wrote:

"Meat Plow" <mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.08.24.13.34.03@hahahahahahahah.nutz.I.am...
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:28:50 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:58 am, Meat Plow <mhyw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:17:04 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:
On Aug 20, 5:16 am, Bob Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would
take the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an
AC motor. Where do you find them? (I think I sent for one thru
Popular Science mag at the time)
Thanks

It is amazing to me that they aren't commonly available!

Google --- PLC module.

HTH

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

Not even close. This was a small (a little larger than a postage
stamp), simple device. I remember using one on a 5 HP motor that
wouldn't start. It was for a bakery mixing machine.

Thermistor across the start cap?


Already suggested - he seems to be ignoring it.

Murata make a range of motor start thermistors (posistor).

By the look of the picture on the front of the catalogue they may be
plug in replacements for existing start winding solenoids.
Click to expand...
Back in my youth I went to school for HVAC and got a job with a family
owned company who installed Trane. I can remember installing hard start
kits. But my specialty was gas fired ammonia systems. Quite a few
residential and small office units around. Mostly 5 ton. Hell natural gas
was cheap back then. Our local gas company went on strike and I was
working on those things 24 hours a day it seemed. So freon-based systems
were not part of my routine except for the then emerging residential heat
pump units. But I do remember the solid state hard start kits.

I think this Villa dood is somewhat purposefully dense.



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
 
On Aug 24, 8:25 am, "ian field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
"Meat Plow" <mhyw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:pan.2010.08.24.13.34.03@hahahahahahahah.nutz.I.am...



On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:28:50 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:58 am, Meat Plow <mhyw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:17:04 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:
On Aug 20, 5:16 am, Bob Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would take
the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an AC
motor. Where do you find them? (I think I sent for one thru Popular
Science mag at the time)
Thanks

It is amazing to me that they aren't commonly available!

Google --- PLC module.

HTH

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

Not even close.  This was a small (a little larger than a postage
stamp), simple device.  I remember using one on a 5 HP motor that
wouldn't start.  It was for a bakery mixing machine.

Thermistor across the start cap?

Already suggested - he seems to be ignoring it.

Murata make a range of motor start thermistors (posistor).

By the look of the picture on the front of the catalogue they may be plug in
replacements for existing start winding solenoids.
Click to expand...
There is no starting cap...it would take the place of a centrifugal
opening starting switch.
I'll Google posistor and see where that leads.
(thanks meathead for the comment-helpful indeed)
 
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:27:51 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:

On Aug 24, 8:25 am, "ian field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
"Meat Plow" <mhyw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:pan.2010.08.24.13.34.03@hahahahahahahah.nutz.I.am...



On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:28:50 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:58 am, Meat Plow <mhyw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:17:04 -0700, Bob Villa wrote:
On Aug 20, 5:16 am, Bob Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
Many years ago (possibly 50) you could buy a module that would
take the place of a starting relay or centrifugal cut-out for an
AC motor. Where do you find them? (I think I sent for one thru
Popular Science mag at the time)
Thanks

It is amazing to me that they aren't commonly available!

Google --- PLC module.

HTH

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

Not even close.  This was a small (a little larger than a postage
stamp), simple device.  I remember using one on a 5 HP motor that
wouldn't start.  It was for a bakery mixing machine.

Thermistor across the start cap?

Already suggested - he seems to be ignoring it.

Murata make a range of motor start thermistors (posistor).

By the look of the picture on the front of the catalogue they may be
plug in replacements for existing start winding solenoids.

There is no starting cap...it would take the place of a centrifugal
opening starting switch.
I'll Google posistor and see where that leads. (thanks meathead for the
comment-helpful indeed)
Click to expand...
Never got into actual motor repair except for taking apart 10/15 horse
230 volt single phase repulsion/induction motors, then having the rotor/
stator rewound, the com resurfaced or replaced. Other than that was a
simple plugin solid state replacement for a three pin residential AC
compressor. There were direct replacements or hard start replacements to
give the compressor a month or so longer useful life while the owner
scraped up the cash for a replacement.



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
 
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 17:40:18 +0100, ian field wrote:

http://www.murata.com/products/catalog/pdf/k99/k99e_l0725.pdf
Click to expand...
Yeah I mistyped PLC for PTC a couple replies ago.

Google --- PLC module.
Click to expand...
Still that doesn't replace a centrifugal clutch directly although you
could probably jury-rig one.



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
 
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:06:52 +0100, ian field wrote:

"Meat Plow" <mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.08.24.16.47.19@hahahahahahahah.nutz.I.am...
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 17:40:18 +0100, ian field wrote:

http://www.murata.com/products/catalog/pdf/k99/k99e_l0725.pdf

Yeah I mistyped PLC for PTC a couple replies ago.

Google --- PLC module.

Still that doesn't replace a centrifugal clutch directly although you
could probably jury-rig one.


"clutch"?!
Click to expand...
Well yeah a clutch, switch, kickout what the fuck ever you want to cal
it.



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
 
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