\"Scooters\" (?) business plan...

[Don Y]

[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing info\")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
\"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of \"typical\"
charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
\"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this \"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing info\")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
\"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of \"typical\"
charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
\"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this \"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don\'t have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the battery

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can\'t use common sense

 

[server]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in
news:sv3nns$fvc$1@dont-email.me:

[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
skateboard with an upright \"handlebar\"...]

Nope. Some groups / folks refer to them as \"metro scooters\".

A real \'scooter\'(like the ones they\'ve had in Italy for decades),
however, is like a moped, but with no pedals and usually has a body
crafted around it. 12\" and up for the wheel diameters.

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Rich kids with a card mom or dad gave them running around cities
having fun. Probably pot couriers.

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing info\")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

There are actual mopeds here as well that \"more mature\" folks use,
but yeah they all have trackers in them that may go dormant as long
as it gets left at the right drop off points, which is likely because
you want the hourly rate charge to stop as soon as you are done with
it. So the \'missing\' ones are rare because the last user is the
first suspect or payee as it were.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
location WHILE it is being \"moved without rent\").

You rent it, it activates it\'s timer. You MUST return it to a
proper drop off point for it to communicate with the server and end
your rental session.

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each
rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up,
periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that
responsibility).

The full size bikes get left at automatic charging stations.
The little kid scooter things vary from brand to brand and city to
city. If there is no charging station, the drop off point sends
battery condition info as well, and yes, they get rounded up like
cattle that don\'t run away.

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

The vans I saw, the guy was dragging newly charged bikes off, and
loading ded bikes on. Big bikes too. Big friggin vans out there
nowadays. Gas slurpers, I\'m sure.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of \"typical\"
charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

The van probably burns up all that was saved.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
\"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged before
arriving at their *intended* destination (?).

Some have a shop they cycle them through. Take 20 out, and pick
twenty up.

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this \"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

The real litter problem in the USA is really assholes and their
discarded cigarette butts. But now, the bigger problem is discarded
masks.

But these little 2 wheel guys are ok. A regular part of many cities
now. Don\'t get yer bloomers in a bunch.

 

[Don Y]

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing info\")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
\"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of \"typical\"
charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
\"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this \"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don\'t have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for \"service\". Hard to
imagine enough \"sales\" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can act as the \"last leg\"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you\'re headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without \"smart phones\" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after you\'ve snapped
a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The \"college kids\"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it\'s a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing info\")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
\"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of \"typical\"
charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
\"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this \"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute.  \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a  model with replaceable battery so
they don\'t have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
battery

Ah, that would make sense.  OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for \"service\".  Hard to
imagine enough \"sales\" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can act as the \"last leg\"
of your (public transportation) trip.  If you\'re headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town.  Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without \"smart phones\" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after you\'ve snapped
a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations.  E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be.  The \"college kids\"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it\'s a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others. Typical customers
are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

Apparently the GPS also geofences where they can\'t be taken
and where they have to be speed limited (15mph on roads,
less in shopping areas). Illegal ones - all bets are off,
of course.

They are dropped off anywhere and everywhere, and in
some places there are so many that they obstruct the
pavement (i.e. where pedestrians walk).

I wonder what happens when you take one home, somebody
else uses it next day, and you can\'t find one near you.
(I believe the app shows you a map of where the one
you are going to rent is located).

There are occasional newspaper articles about users
being banned. The last one I saw was a dashcam showing
two people on the scooter. That\'s not uncommon,
but illegal.

The surprising point in that case is that they
identified the perp; the identification codes are
too small to be seen on the dashcam or by eye
when moving.

I have occasionally moved them with extreme prejudice,
to enable my mother\'s disabled buggy to pass.

Another failure mechanism is:
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2022/02/stealing-bicycles-by-swapping-qr-codes.html

 

[Don Y]

On 2/23/2022 1:52 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing info\")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
\"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of \"typical\"
charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
\"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this \"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don\'t have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for \"service\". Hard to
imagine enough \"sales\" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s places
(controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip there. Also
prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can act as the \"last leg\"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you\'re headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban
people
that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without \"smart phones\" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after you\'ve snapped
a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The \"college kids\"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it\'s a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

[I was more concerned with the business model that would \"justify\"
that sort of risk/overhead.]

There are (were?) two providers authorized to make these available
\"for pay\", in town. There are no (?) limitations on other \"owned\"
units being used (though they are not allowed on sidewalks).

ICE-powered \"skateboards\" were common, some years back. The noise
from their tiny \"chainsaw\" engines (30cc?) was universally considered
annoying -- so much so that they were banned, in town.

There are some similarly powered \"bicycle adapters\" that seem to have
skirted any restrictions, though.

And, IIRC, anything less than ~50cc can be operated without a license
on roadways -- unless it is a \"moped\" (moped > motorized bicycle in
terms of BHP and max speed) which must be licensed/registered/insured.

[We have mopeds (ANY license/registered/insured/roadways), motorized/electric
bicycle (no license, registration or insurance, roadways and bike paths),
scooters (motorcycle license, registered, insured, roadways) and eScooters
(same as motorized/electric bicycle). The differences in classifications
are related to BHP, max speed, engine displacement/power, number of wheels,
pedals/not, etc.]

You\'ll see Segways (different models, ninebots being most common as they are
considerably cheaper; think: youngsters), one-wheeled skateboards (inverted
pendulum control), the \"scooters\" I described in this topic, motorized
bicycles, etc. Plus \"real\" vehicles (motorcycles, trikes -- front and rear,
cars/trucks/etc) and all sorts of bicycles (recumbent, racing, etc.)

Typical customers
are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

I\'ve not seen any \"adults\" riding the two-wheeled devices
described, here. So, question the city\'s emphasis on
making them available for underprivileged population
(only poor *kids* but not their parents??)

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

They don\'t require any licensing or insurance (for the operator).
No idea if the \"provider\" carries a blanket policy, though.

I would imagine an accident with a motor vehicle would treat
them as pedestrians or bike-riders. One-wheeled devices and
hoverboards are explicitly considered \"pedestrians\".

Apparently the GPS also geofences where they can\'t be taken
and where they have to be speed limited (15mph on roads,
less in shopping areas). Illegal ones - all bets are off,
of course.

An \"escooter\" is limited to having a maximum speed of 25MPH
if less than 75 pounds; under 30 pounds it is classified as
a \"mini scooter\" if limited to 10 MPH.

Given that the speed limit is 25MPH on residential roads
(barring \"school zones\" when children are likely to be
transiting to/fro), there\'s no real problem. Mopeds
tend to be underpowered and only a fool would consider
operating them on city streets (speed limit being 45
on most -- which means 55+ in practice!)

[Any vehicle smaller than a decent sized car represents
a significant risk, here. Lots of oversized trucks,
SUVs, etc. and a fair number of motorcycle and pedestrian
accidents.]

They are dropped off anywhere and everywhere, and in
some places there are so many that they obstruct the
pavement (i.e. where pedestrians walk).

The rental program requires them to be off the sidewalk
and adjacent to the street, parked \"upright\". Of course,
anyone walking by can kick one over and leave it that way!

I wonder what happens when you take one home, somebody
else uses it next day, and you can\'t find one near you.
(I believe the app shows you a map of where the one
you are going to rent is located).

I wonder what would happen if you *really* \"took it home\"
and kept it \"locked up\" just to ensure it would be accessible
to you the next day?! Would someone potentially knock on your
door claiming they wanted to rent it? (is the GPS accuracy
enough that they can detect that it is not *at* the curb but,
instead, 20+ feet recessed (in your garage, carport, behind
a shrub, etc.)

There are occasional newspaper articles about users
being banned. The last one I saw was a dashcam showing
two people on the scooter. That\'s not uncommon,
but illegal.

Yes, also illegal, here. No doubt for safety reasons.
But, also allows rental company to charge \"per customer\"
(what would a parent with a young child do?)

The surprising point in that case is that they
identified the perp; the identification codes are
too small to be seen on the dashcam or by eye
when moving.

I have occasionally moved them with extreme prejudice,
to enable my mother\'s disabled buggy to pass.

I\'ve not seen them blocking roadways or sidewalks.
But, I *have* seen them laying on their sides (as a
child might mistreat their own \"toy\").

What\'s more annoying is seeing them scattered around
several businesses as if there was no \"rule\" for where
they could be left. (are you THAT lazy that you can\'t
park them in groups?)

Another failure mechanism is:
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2022/02/stealing-bicycles-by-swapping-qr-codes.html

I\'m surprised someone hasn\'t rented one, passively examined
it\'s design, completed the rental -- and then used that
information to steal one without ever having to disclose
your identity (i.e., by renting it).

Granted, one could design the drive electronics to *require*
the operation/acknowledgement via modem. But, I can\'t see
why you couldn\'t replace the entire electronics package
with a modest PWM controller (?) Most of the \"value\" seems
like it would be in the hub motor and physical mechanism...

 

[server]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in
news:sv4q8b$g79$1@dont-email.me:

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery
so they don\'t have to bring them home for charging, they can just
replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent
rental).

This is likely not true. Otherwise kids would be stealing the
batteries, just like the copper wire days.

They are sealed in and get recharged on the scoot. I see vans of
folks gathering them up (the whole scooter)and putting out freshly
charged units all the time.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 17.55.08 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:

Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in
news:sv4q8b$g79$1...@dont-email.me:

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery
so they don\'t have to bring them home for charging, they can just
replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent
rental).

This is likely not true. Otherwise kids would be stealing the
batteries, just like the copper wire days.

there\'s obviously a lock on it ..

They are sealed in and get recharged on the scoot. I see vans of
folks gathering them up (the whole scooter)and putting out freshly
charged units all the time.

https://www.voiscooters.com/blog/voi-receives-formal-dft-approval-on-its-e-scooters/

\"50% reduction in service emissions, thanks to a drastic reduction in trips necessary
for charging and maintaining scooters when batteries can be swapped on site\"

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing info\")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
\"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of \"typical\"
charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
\"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this \"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don\'t have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for \"service\". Hard to
imagine enough \"sales\" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can act as the \"last leg\"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you\'re headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without \"smart phones\" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after you\'ve snapped
a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The \"college kids\"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it\'s a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing info\")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
\"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of \"typical\"
charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
\"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this \"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don\'t have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for \"service\". Hard to
imagine enough \"sales\" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can act as the \"last leg\"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you\'re headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without \"smart phones\" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after you\'ve snapped
a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The \"college kids\"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it\'s a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner\'s permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say \"guess\" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

 

[server]

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:sv68j3$vem$3@dont-email.me:

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
skateboard with an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever
the previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use
(rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each
that lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing
info\") as well as where it presently resides, battery state,
etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
location WHILE it is being \"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them
up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume
that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san
francisco or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago)
over a widely distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
\"typical\" charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
support \"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged
before arriving at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
\"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
battery so they don\'t have to bring them home for charging,
they can just replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent
rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet
(?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service scooters
for \"service\". Hard to imagine enough \"sales\" to cover
expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s
places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip
there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for the
service. The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can act as
the \"last leg\" of your (public transportation) trip. If you\'re
headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could well be at
that storefront (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the
device after finishing your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be
to come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so
they can ban people that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
without \"smart phones\" -- one of the conditions the city put in
place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after
you\'ve snapped a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at
store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The \"college
kids\" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from
the bars... We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so
unlikely they would live here or choose to visit/shop in this
part of town (it\'s a 20 minute drive at 45MPH city traffic
speeds just to get to the campus)]
My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner\'s permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!


Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say \"guess\" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio
operators\'s license.

When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
FAA website and register and license it.

I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone. I just go
where I need to go and if I were ever hassled about it, I would swear
that it is only 50cc. Har har. I never climb up anybody\'s ass and
most folks do not bother me about it when they are behind me.
Drive safely and at the speed limit and a cop watching cars come down
the road goes on about finding the loony ones, not the nice and easy
ones.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.22.53 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing info\")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
\"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of \"typical\"
charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
\"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this \"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don\'t have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for \"service\". Hard to
imagine enough \"sales\" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can act as the \"last leg\"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you\'re headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without \"smart phones\" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after you\'ve snapped
a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The \"college kids\"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it\'s a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?
Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

nonsense, you can literally buy exactly the same as used by Voi or
numerous others type approved to exactly the same regulations
and limited to to the same 20km/h

you can of course also buy some that are much faster and not type approved
for use on public roads, but that is no different that offroad/racing cars or bikes

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner\'s permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!

you could also illegally drive an offroad motorcycle or race car on the street, that doesn\'t
mean all bike or cars on the road are illegal

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?
From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say \"guess\" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

they are a convenient compact alternative to a bicycle and
the rules for using them similar

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.58.29 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:

Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:sv68j3$vem$3...@dont-email.me:
On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
skateboard with an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever
the previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use
(rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each
that lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing
info\") as well as where it presently resides, battery state,
etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
location WHILE it is being \"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them
up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume
that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san
francisco or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago)
over a widely distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
\"typical\" charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
support \"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged
before arriving at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
\"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
battery so they don\'t have to bring them home for charging,
they can just replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent
rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet
(?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service scooters
for \"service\". Hard to imagine enough \"sales\" to cover
expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s
places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip
there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for the
service. The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can act as
the \"last leg\" of your (public transportation) trip. If you\'re
headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could well be at
that storefront (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the
device after finishing your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be
to come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so
they can ban people that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
without \"smart phones\" -- one of the conditions the city put in
place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after
you\'ve snapped a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at
store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The \"college
kids\" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from
the bars... We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so
unlikely they would live here or choose to visit/shop in this
part of town (it\'s a 20 minute drive at 45MPH city traffic
speeds just to get to the campus)]
My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner\'s permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!


Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say \"guess\" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio
operators\'s license.

When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
FAA website and register and license it.

I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone.

everyone says that, until they do
and then you have caused damages and possibly injuries
you leave someone else with a big bill that you can\'t pay
and no insurance to cover it ...

 

[StupidAs StupidGet]

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 2:08:17 PM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.58.29 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:sv68j3$vem$3...@dont-email.me:
On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
skateboard with an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever
the previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use
(rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each
that lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing
info\") as well as where it presently resides, battery state,
etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
location WHILE it is being \"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them
up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume
that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san
francisco or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago)
over a widely distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
\"typical\" charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
support \"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged
before arriving at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
\"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
battery so they don\'t have to bring them home for charging,
they can just replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent
rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet
(?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service scooters
for \"service\". Hard to imagine enough \"sales\" to cover
expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s
places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip
there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for the
service. The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can act as
the \"last leg\" of your (public transportation) trip. If you\'re
headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could well be at
that storefront (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the
device after finishing your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be
to come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so
they can ban people that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
without \"smart phones\" -- one of the conditions the city put in
place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after
you\'ve snapped a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at
store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The \"college
kids\" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from
the bars... We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so
unlikely they would live here or choose to visit/shop in this
part of town (it\'s a 20 minute drive at 45MPH city traffic
speeds just to get to the campus)]
My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner\'s permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!


Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say \"guess\" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio
operators\'s license.

When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
FAA website and register and license it.

I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone.
everyone says that, until they do
and then you have caused damages and possibly injuries
you leave someone else with a big bill that you can\'t pay
and no insurance to cover it ...

He will probably Hit and Run anyway.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 23/02/22 21:59, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.22.53 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing info\")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
\"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of \"typical\"
charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
\"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this \"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don\'t have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for \"service\". Hard to
imagine enough \"sales\" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can act as the \"last leg\"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you\'re headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without \"smart phones\" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after you\'ve snapped
a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The \"college kids\"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it\'s a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?
Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

nonsense, you can literally buy exactly the same as used by Voi or
numerous others type approved to exactly the same regulations
and limited to to the same 20km/h

Not in the UK.

Even if you have the same type of scooter, they would be illegal.
The only legal scooters are the /hired/ scooters.

you can of course also buy some that are much faster and not type approved
for use on public roads, but that is no different that offroad/racing cars or bikes

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner\'s permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!

you could also illegally drive an offroad motorcycle or race car on the street, that doesn\'t
mean all bike or cars on the road are illegal

True, but irrelevant.

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?
From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say \"guess\" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

they are a convenient compact alternative to a bicycle and
the rules for using them similar

People don\'t obey the law - and that\'s true for bikes
and drones.

With drones they often aren\'t aware that their playthings
are covered by the same law as commercial airliners - the
Air Navigation Order. Of course the permitted activities
are different for 747s, balloons and drones

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 23.48.37 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 21:59, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.22.53 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and \"account/billing info\")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
\"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of \"typical\"
charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
\"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this \"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don\'t have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for \"service\". Hard to
imagine enough \"sales\" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can act as the \"last leg\"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you\'re headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without \"smart phones\" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after you\'ve snapped
a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The \"college kids\"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it\'s a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?
Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

nonsense, you can literally buy exactly the same as used by Voi or
numerous others type approved to exactly the same regulations
and limited to to the same 20km/h
Not in the UK.

Even if you have the same type of scooter, they would be illegal.
The only legal scooters are the /hired/ scooters.

I know UK have some insane rules, what\'s next only rental cars allowed on the street?

\"You will own NOTHING, you will WILL be happy about it\"

 

[Don Y]

On 2/23/2022 4:06 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 23.48.37 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

Even if you have the same type of scooter, they would be illegal.
The only legal scooters are the /hired/ scooters.

I know UK have some insane rules, what\'s next only rental cars allowed on the street?

\"You will own NOTHING, you will WILL be happy about it\"

\"Legality\" is a red herring -- unless you\'ve implemented a police state and
can *ensure* that \"illegal acts/devices\" can not happen/exist.

The law (here) says you can\'t operate (or even HOLD!) a cell phone, while
driving. Yet I see nearly every car leaving my subdivision (in the morning
rush) occupied by a driver consulting their phone. This, KNOWING that any
damage/injury done will be to someone you likely KNOW or live with.

[Of course, if this was an important issue, you could mandate that
phones refuse to operate when moving at speeds in excess of human walking!
(is consulting a phone while walking without risk?)]

As a kid, I drove my (homemade) \"go-kart\" around the neighborhood, despite
operation on a public roadway being expressly forbidden. Each time, wondering
if some \"grump\" would call the police about my activity.

I can\'t (legally) operate a drone without line-of-sight. OTOH, if I stand on
my *roof*, that line of sight extends pretty damn far! (much farther than
the folks whose houses I\'d be overflying would have expected)

It is this disconnect between what *can* be done and what is *allowed* that
is interesting. E.g., all of the little gasoline-powered skateboards that
just *disappeared*, overnight, when the laws were changed. (I know *I* would
be pissed if I suddenly couldn\'t use an item that I\'d purchased!)

 

[server]

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
news:1b56315c-0715-4e37-9542-eb132ed46924n@googlegroups.com:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.58.29 UTC+1 skrev
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:sv68j3$vem$3...@dont-email.me:
On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom
Gardner:
On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don
Y:
[Dunno if \"scooters\" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
skateboard with an upright \"handlebar\"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left*
wherever the previous \"renter\" lost interest in continued
use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in
each that lets it phone home to report usage (and
\"account/billing info\") as well as where it presently
resides, battery state, etc.

I\'m sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report
its location WHILE it is being \"moved without rent\").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round
them up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters
assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of
san francisco or boston... just slightly larger than
Chicago) over a widely distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
\"typical\" charge-use cycles, it likely can\'t avoid them.

I\'d imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
support \"on vehicle charging\" -- so the scooters are
charged before arriving at their *intended* destination
(?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
\"litter\".

So, what\'s the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks
*attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. \"Underprivileged\"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
battery so they don\'t have to bring them home for charging,
they can just replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must
be easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the
scooter ends up unattended for long periods after it\'s most
recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a
fleet (?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service
scooters for \"service\". Hard to imagine enough \"sales\" to
cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There\'s discounts for parking at one of the \"hubs\" There\'s
places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can\'t end a trip
there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not
allowed

I don\'t see any mention of that in the advertisements for
the service. The \"pitch\" seems to be that the scooter can
act as the \"last leg\" of your (public transportation) trip.
If you\'re headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could
well be at that storefront (no guarantee that you will want
to reuse the device after finishing your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter
be to come by YOUR house to pick up the \"discard\"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most
want assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked
so they can ban people that can\'t use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
without \"smart phones\" -- one of the conditions the city put
in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what\'s to stop someone moving the scooter after
you\'ve snapped a photo of it \"parked properly\"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g.,
at store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The \"college
kids\" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them
to/from the bars... We\'re a dozen? *miles* away from the
campus so unlikely they would live here or choose to
visit/shop in this part of town (it\'s a 20 minute drive at
45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]
My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of
rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner\'s permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!


Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say \"guess\" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio
operators\'s license.

When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
FAA website and register and license it.

I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone.

everyone says that, until they do
and then you have caused damages and possibly injuries
you leave someone else with a big bill that you can\'t pay
and no insurance to cover it ...

With my scooter? Hardly. With 3500lb cars sure. Not going to be
plowing into any crowds any time soon.

 

[server]

StupidAs StupidGet <buildbetterbilly@gmail.com> wrote in news:1b16cffc-
d4f4-4fe4-8ccf-7a96102a16f4n@googlegroups.com:

He will probably Hit and Run anyway.

If I knew your address, I sure as fuck would, but it would be a 454
Cassul and your face, so you wouldn\'t know a thing cause you would be
worm food.

 

[StupidAs StupidGet]

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 3:50:27 PM UTC-8, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

StupidAs StupidGet <buildbet...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1b16cffc-
d4f4-4fe4-8ccf...@googlegroups.com:
He will probably Hit and Run anyway.

If I knew your address, I sure as fuck would, but it would be a 454
Cassul and your face, so you wouldn\'t know a thing cause you would be
worm food.

You have no regard for law and order and public safety anyway. FFF