sci.electronics.basics, Would You Like To Actually Participa

This is an ESR detector for caps, electrolytics mainly that cause so many of the problems in electronic equipment. This is not meant to be a lab quality instrument, it is mew=ant to be a fast way to check alot of caps and that does find many electronic problems. Nobody in the business will really argue with that unless they work on some weird shit.

One of the earlier ones was the Creative Electronics "Wonderbox". It did well, I used one for a time. It is an ohmmeter, but an AC ohmmeter measuring at 50 KHz. This works well but their rendition of it is lab quality and we don't need that for servicing.

Then came the Dick Smith. A fine meter but digital. It would give you the ESR accurately and then refer you to a chart to find out if that value of cap was in spec or not.

My device gets rid of most of that. The bar graph shows a go/nogo condition almost independent of the value, and actually the application. Many people do not realize the application matters, in one circuit a cap would do just fine but in another not at all.

And after decades in the business you'll find that the applications in which they're used, the moire demanding ones make them go bad faster and the less demanding ones let them live longer.

The thing about servicing this shit now i s that extreme efficiency is required. You want to be in the business you can't waste a dime, and even if you have the best employees, you could still fail and probably will. But when you learn how to rally troubleshoot it carries on to other aspects of life..

My next post will be the actual ASC file and nothing else. If you have TLSpice you know, but everyone else, mark all the text, right click and "Copy", open a new text document, "Paste" it in and then rename the file whatever name you want, but change the extension to ASC. Windows will warn you but do it anyway. then a double click will take it to LTSpice and you see the schematic.

I am putting nothing else in this next post.

 

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TEXT 1224 -280 Left 2 ;PROBES
TEXT -1160 216 Left 2 !PWR
TEXT -1160 248 Left 2 !BATT
TEXT -1424 -32 Left 2 !ON/OFF
TEXT -1416 0 Left 2 !HERE
TEXT -1424 152 Left 2 !6 VDC
TEXT -1416 32 Left 2 ;<------
TEXT -552 -224 Left 2 ;OSC
TEXT 80 -224 Left 2 ;mulltistable flipflop
TEXT -1272 1064 Left 2 ;shaort detector
TEXT -888 1064 Left 2 ;ESR detector
TEXT 488 1048 Left 2 ;display circuit
TEXT 488 -232 Left 2 ;output to DUT
TEXT 1000 -232 Left 2 ;protection
TEXT -1392 -240 Left 2 ;power/batt indicator

 

For those who do not have LTSpice, the schematic is at :

http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/7/71823/thing01.jpg

Please download/save it and do not keep going there. Because of how their software is written it allows me to use them for images. They are good folk and I do not want to piss them off. But for educational purposes, it should be alright for now.

Anyway, the device is in several parts. Of course first of all is powering the thing. I think I can do it on 6 volts. The power indicator will light until the batteries are deemed weak and the reading should not be considered like when it is on. The unit will still operate but the reading may be slewed. I find it illogical to have a light light when the batteries are low, why drain them more at such a time ?

Next to it on the right is an oscillator that won't work. I realized that later, but it is not hard to fix. I was looking into a phase shift oscillator but they are known for being able to put out a halfway clean sine wave. I do not need that. I just need a stable frequency of pulses to make the flipflop to the right change states. that pretty much guarantees me a 50 % duty cycle, which is what I want and the reason comes clear later.

To the right of that is the test signal generator the output of which is fed to the DUT after modification by R 16 & 17 which make the output 200 mV P-P positive going at about 360 ohms output impedance. This is fed to the test probes and the DUT is expected to short out the AC component of it.

It is applied to the test tester or whatever, lower left on the bottom. First on the schem is the DC detector. THAT i s the reason for the positive going signal. If the test leads are shorted the light lights.

It also goes to the ESR detector system. That is through a high pass filter and then diode detected, that is whatever the cap did not shunt. That could be calibrated somehow to ESR in ohms but that is not what I want. I want to know if it is good enough to work in a circuit. And I want it FAST.

I have used a bunch of ESR meters and put up with "Click" and the light is on for 2 seconds saying "Discharging". IT WASN'T CHARGED ! I do not want to spend 2 seconds on each cap, you know how many of those there are ? So this read almost immediately. It is protected against charged caps, and you can tell other things with it.

We'll get into that later. Right now, have a look and try to understand. And by the way, I am just a good hack, not an engineer. You don't need a degree to design.

 

[Phil Allison]

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

It also goes to the ESR detector system. That is through a high pass
filter and then diode detected, that is whatever the cap did not shunt.
That could be calibrated somehow to ESR in ohms but that is not what I want.
I want to know if it is good enough to work in a circuit. And I want it FAST.

** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the acceptable ESR readings are for each electro you need to test.

I regularly work on valve / tube amplifiers and am therefore familiar with ESR readings for high voltage electros in the range of 22 to 220 uF. No need to look up any lists and my spares stock is available to compare readings with new parts.

For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps can be checked and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1 minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and you are done.

Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having oozed electrolyte get replaced - no questions.




...... Phil

 

>"** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the acceptable ESR readings are for each electro you need to test. "

Not so much. The ones that are bad were stressed more, the others in the unit of the same make and age may not have been and not as much of the electrolyte has been boiled out. In circuits of the latter type, ESR is not that critical. Nut with the high pass filter it makes the value less important.

So acceptable ESR readings are not going to be found on a chart. What's more. my device does not actually read ESR in a lab type fashion, it is meant more as a go/nogo tool to speed up troubleshooting, even for those who can't really troubleshoot.

Even in the user manual for this thing I would include to look at the positive (or whatever) lead and look to see if it is green and to look for any of them bulging. My goal is to keep as much of this stuff out of the dumpster (skip) as possible.

>"I regularly work on valve / tube amplifiers and am therefore familiar with ESR readings for high voltage electros in the range of 22 to 220 uF. No need to look up any lists and my spares stock is available to compare readings with new parts. "

With your experience you don't have to look up shit. you can say right away, "This is good", "This is marginal" and "This is bad". But I do realize that many, especially novices have not had that inculcated into them.

For them all I can say is change the worst first.

>"For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps can be checked and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1 minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and you are done. "

Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition of the caps becomes quite important.

>"Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having oozed electrolyte get replaced - no questions. "

Have you noticed that most of them took a hell of alot longer to go bad ?

Anyway, I think my doodad can be useful to novices as well as masters. Very fast. In a power supply, clip one lead to ground and check all of them, a minute ? That's like an 8086 compared to today's processors. A minute to chack a cap ? That is an eternity.

There is the Dick Smith, fine and good. But for servicing you don't need to know between 1.7 and 1.8. Why ?

 

[amdx]

On 7/6/2018 6:17 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

"** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the acceptable ESR readings are for each electro you need to test."

Not so much. The ones that are bad were stressed more, the others in the unit of the same make and age may not have been and not as much of the electrolyte has been boiled out. In circuits of the latter type, ESR is not that critical. Nut with the high pass filter it makes the value less important.

So acceptable ESR readings are not going to be found on a chart. What's more. my device does not actually read ESR in a lab type fashion, it is meant more as a go/nogo tool to speed up troubleshooting, even for those who can't really troubleshoot.

Even in the user manual for this thing I would include to look at the positive (or whatever) lead and look to see if it is green and to look for any of them bulging. My goal is to keep as much of this stuff out of the dumpster (skip) as possible.

"I regularly work on valve / tube amplifiers and am therefore familiar with ESR readings for high voltage electros in the range of 22 to 220 uF. No need to look up any lists and my spares stock is available to compare readings with new parts."

With your experience you don't have to look up shit. you can say right away, "This is good", "This is marginal" and "This is bad". But I do realize that many, especially novices have not had that inculcated into them.

For them all I can say is change the worst first.

"For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps can be checked and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1 minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and you are done."

Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition of the caps becomes quite important.

"Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having oozed electrolyte get replaced - no questions."

Have you noticed that most of them took a hell of alot longer to go bad ?

Anyway, I think my doodad can be useful to novices as well as masters. Very fast. In a power supply, clip one lead to ground and check all of them, a minute ? That's like an 8086 compared to today's processors. A minute to chack a cap ? That is an eternity.

There is the Dick Smith, fine and good. But for servicing you don't need to know between 1.7 and 1.8. Why ?

Here's a video, most of it uses a scope to see the results of the
test, but at the end of the video he does show test with results on an
analog meter.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115erzCCxgE

Mikek

 

[amdx]

On 7/6/2018 7:31 PM, amdx wrote:

On 7/6/2018 6:17 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
"** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the
acceptable ESR readings are for each electro you need to test."

Not so much. The ones that are bad were stressed more, the others in
the unit of the same make and age may not have been and not as much of
the electrolyte has been boiled out. In circuits of the latter type,
ESR is not that critical. Nut with the high pass filter it makes the
value less important.

So acceptable ESR readings are not going to be found on a chart.
What's more. my device does not actually read ESR in a lab type
fashion, it is meant more as a go/nogo tool to speed up
troubleshooting, even for those who can't really troubleshoot.

Even in the user manual for this thing I would include to look at the
positive (or whatever) lead and look to see if it is green and to look
for any of them bulging. My goal is to keep as much of this stuff out
of the dumpster (skip) as possible.

"I regularly work on valve / tube amplifiers and am therefore
familiar with ESR readings for high voltage electros in the range of
22 to 220 uF. No need to look up any lists and my spares stock is
available to compare readings with new parts."

With your experience you don't have to look up shit. you can say right
away, "This is good", "This is marginal" and "This is bad". But I do
realize that many, especially novices have not had that inculcated
into them.

For them all I can say is change the worst first.

"For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps
can be checked and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1
minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and
you are done."

Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition of
the caps becomes quite important.

"Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having
oozed electrolyte get replaced -  no questions."

Have you noticed that most of them took a hell of alot longer to go bad ?

Anyway, I think my doodad can be useful to novices as well as masters.
Very fast. In a power supply, clip one lead to ground and check all of
them, a minute ? That's like an 8086 compared to today's processors. A
minute to chack a cap ? That is an eternity.

There is the Dick Smith, fine and good. But for servicing you don't
need to know between 1.7 and 1.8. Why ?


  Here's a video, most of it uses a scope to see the results of the
test, but at the end of the video he does show test with results on an
analog meter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115erzCCxgE

                   Mikek

Found his analog design here. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYAgat-sOQ

Mikek

 

[amdx]

On 7/6/2018 7:55 PM, amdx wrote:

On 7/6/2018 7:31 PM, amdx wrote:
On 7/6/2018 6:17 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
"** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the
acceptable ESR readings are for each electro you need to test."

Not so much. The ones that are bad were stressed more, the others in
the unit of the same make and age may not have been and not as much
of the electrolyte has been boiled out. In circuits of the latter
type, ESR is not that critical. Nut with the high pass filter it
makes the value less important.

So acceptable ESR readings are not going to be found on a chart.
What's more. my device does not actually read ESR in a lab type
fashion, it is meant more as a go/nogo tool to speed up
troubleshooting, even for those who can't really troubleshoot.

Even in the user manual for this thing I would include to look at the
positive (or whatever) lead and look to see if it is green and to
look for any of them bulging. My goal is to keep as much of this
stuff out of the dumpster (skip) as possible.

"I regularly work on valve / tube amplifiers and am therefore
familiar with ESR readings for high voltage electros in the range of
22 to 220 uF. No need to look up any lists and my spares stock is
available to compare readings with new parts."

With your experience you don't have to look up shit. you can say
right away, "This is good", "This is marginal" and "This is bad". But
I do realize that many, especially novices have not had that
inculcated into them.

For them all I can say is change the worst first.

"For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps
can be checked and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1
minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and
you are done."

Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition
of the caps becomes quite important.

"Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having
oozed electrolyte get replaced -  no questions."

Have you noticed that most of them took a hell of alot longer to go
bad ?

Anyway, I think my doodad can be useful to novices as well as
masters. Very fast. In a power supply, clip one lead to ground and
check all of them, a minute ? That's like an 8086 compared to today's
processors. A minute to chack a cap ? That is an eternity.

There is the Dick Smith, fine and good. But for servicing you don't
need to know between 1.7 and 1.8. Why ?


   Here's a video, most of it uses a scope to see the results of the
test, but at the end of the video he does show test with results on an
analog meter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115erzCCxgE

                    Mikek

Found his analog design here. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYAgat-sOQ

                     Mikek
And another one, > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fiUZZlveS0

 

[Phil Allison]

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

"** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the
acceptable ESR readings are for each electro you need to test. "


Not so much.

** Here comes the same old bullshit plus a massive context change.


" The ones that are bad were stressed more, the others in the unit of the same make and age may not have been and not as much of the electrolyte has been boiled out. In circuits of the latter type, ESR is not that critical. Nut with the high pass filter it makes the value less important. "

** Goble-de-gook.


> So acceptable ESR readings are not going to be found on a chart.

** Non sequitur.


" What's more. my device does not actually read ESR in a lab type fashion, it is meant more as a go/nogo tool to speed up troubleshooting, even for those who can't really troubleshoot. "

** The fool's device exist only in his imagination.

"For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps can be checked and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1 minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and you are done. "

Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition
of the caps becomes quite important.

** Insane crap !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

All the HV electros would EXPLOD if you did that.

"Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having oozed electrolyte get replaced - no questions. "

Have you noticed that most of them took a hell of alot longer to go bad ?

** No.

There is the Dick Smith, fine and good. But for servicing you don't need
to know between 1.7 and 1.8. Why ?

** 2 digit resolution is hardly excessive.

Wot a demented moron.


..... Phil

 

>" Here's a video, most of it uses a scope to see the results of the
test, but at the end of the video he does show test with results on an
analog meter.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115erzCCxgE

Mikek"

I invented that, of course probably so did a few other people. I found that for most service work 0-400 mV was fine and I used 1 KHz with about a 360 ohm impedance. In fact I recently did a writeup on it at groups.io with pictures of the waveforms resulting to illustrate how to use it. The lower voltage applied to the DUT doesn't bother the semiconductor junctions, I guess it would with Schottky diodes but not much else.

Originally I used the 2 volt probe calibrator of a Tek 422, but back then there were still tube/valve sets. Some even had selenium rectifiers and 2 volts doesn't bother them much.

 

>"** Here comes the same old bullshit plus a massive context change."

Friendly as ever.

"> >"** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the
acceptable ESR readings are for each electro you need to test. "


Not so much.
"

Didn't YOU recently say if they read bad they should be replaced before they shit all over the PC board ? (I think i put it more eloquently)

And, are you saying that being subjected to more ripple current DOESN'T shorten the life of a lytic ?

Another thing I've discovered it that in much modern shit, the value means very little. In fact on a PC motherboard or the PS of a TV they might have a bank of 5 3,300 uF on a certain output, and the ALL go bad.

Well I learned that people will put up with screen defects and shit like that and it could need a screen or a Tcon, but they didn't mention that, and when that problem shows up of course it is your fault.

So instead if replacing all 5 of those caps, mounting them nice on the board and cutting the leads off, I would pull one and throw a 1,000 in there with the long leads attached. One of my bench caps. And get this, my sister's monitor, I found a bad cap in its PS and didn't have one. It maybe was a couple of 2,200 uF or whatever and all I had was an old 100 uF of the proper voltage rating. I put it in and told her that I will have to order the right caps for it and it is bound to fail again, just let me know when it does.. Been about 5 years now.

"> Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition
of the caps becomes quite important.

** Insane crap !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

All the HV electros would EXPLOD if you did that. "

Perhaps I didn't write it right. some of those things have doublers, maybe even triplers, I am not talking ME doubling or tripling anything. In such a configuration the ESR of all the lytics are effectively in series and that is what makes it more important. In such a case each got the same abuse all its life and is the same age so I would recommend replacing them all even if only one is bad.

>"** 2 digit resolution is hardly excessive. "

Still not needed. I got no digit resolution. Just a bar graph display. In fact I am thinking I don't even need that many segments. So 8 might do and then I just use 2 quad comparators. Open collector outputs would work and probably have less power drain.

>"** The fool's device exist only in his imagination. "

Same with the Wolksvagon until Hitler came along.

 

[Phil Allison]

jurb is a TROLL ...@gmail.com wrote:

" Here's a video, most of it uses a scope to see the results of the
test, but at the end of the video he does show test with results on an
analog meter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115erzCCxgE


I invented that, of course probably so did a few other people.

** A few hundred thousand.

I found that for most service work 0-400 mV was fine and I used 1 KHz with about a 360 ohm impedance.

** Almost useless - such a low frequenency mixes normal reactive impedance with ESR.

In fact I recently did a writeup on it at groups.io with pictures of the waveforms resulting to illustrate how to use it.

** You should be taken out and shot.



..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

jurb is a TROLL ..@gmail.com wrote:

"** Here comes the same old bullshit plus a massive context change."

Friendly as ever.


** You are no friend of anyone.

Another thing I've discovered it that in much modern shit, the value means very little. In fact on a PC motherboard or the PS of a TV they might have a bank of 5 3,300 uF on a certain output, and the ALL go bad.

** Snip piles of irrelevant shit.

"> Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition
of the caps becomes quite important.


** Insane crap !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

All the HV electros would EXPLOD if you did that. "

Perhaps I didn't write it right.

** Because you did not THINK it right.

Snip more irrelevant shit.

"** 2 digit resolution is hardly excessive. "

Still not needed.

** In fact is it needed - 1 digit resolution is unusable.



> I got no digit resolution.

** You've got no fucking clue whatsoever.

Just a bar graph display.

** Of nothing worth seeing.

"** The fool's device exist only in his imagination. "

Same with the Wolksvagon until Hitler came along.

** Jurb is a dangerous fool - cos he thinks he's clever when the fact is he is an idiot.



.... Phil

 

>"** You are no friend of anyone. "

I have friends who would kill for me and I for them. I call they show up with guns. Do you ? Oh, I forgot you arrogant assholes down there can't be trusted with guns.

>"** Jurb is a dangerous fool - cos he thinks he's clever when the fact is he is an idiot. "

Let's see YOUR design.

 

>"** Almost useless - such a low frequenency mixes normal reactive impedance with ESR. "

So you didn't see the high pass filter going to the detector preamp.

>"** You should be taken out and shot. "

I've been shot. Didn't work. HAHAHAHA.