RFDesign Magazine article--Tayloe

amdx · Jul 20, 2005

I'm looking at info on the Tayloe detector, I have found the article below,
however, the article is missing the figures. Anyone know how I can get them,
or does anyone have them to send me.

http://rfdesign.com/mag/radio_lownoise_highperformance_zero/

Thanks
Mike

Jim Thompson · Jul 20, 2005

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:14:57 -0500, "amdx" <amdx@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

I'm looking at info on the Tayloe detector, I have found the article below,
however, the article is missing the figures. Anyone know how I can get them,
or does anyone have them to send me.

http://rfdesign.com/mag/radio_lownoise_highperformance_zero/

Thanks
Mike

Sheeeesh! The things they'll patent as soon as people forget the
masters...

Franks, L.E. and I.W Sandberg: An Alternative Approach to the
Realization of Network Transfer Functions: The N-Path Filter, BSTJ,
vol. 39, pp. 1321-1350, September, 1960

and for the practical application...

ANALYSIS AND DESIGN OF INTEGRATED CIRCUITS, Motorola Series in
Solid-State Electronics, McGraw-Hill, 1967, (before ISBN), Chapter
15, "Frequency-Selective Amplification Without Inductors"

..... written by yours truly ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joel Kolstad · Jul 20, 2005

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:k6crd196hhaatlka86mbvu1tes2ib8qim5@4ax.com...

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:14:57 -0500, "amdx" <amdx@worldnet.att.net
wrote:
I'm looking at info on the Tayloe detector...
Sheeeesh! The things they'll patent as soon as people forget the
masters...

Indeed. I think a lot of people (including myself) come up with the idea
behind the Tayloe detector independently... and in my case I can attribute it
to some Forrest M. Mims book I read back in the '80s (he was applying the idea
to modulators instead of demodulators though)...

Further discussion of Tayloe's detector not being all that horribly new:
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/030304qex020.pdf

---Joel Kolstad

RST Engineering (jw) · Jul 20, 2005

I've been out of the receiver design game for about fifteen years,
concentrating on audio processors and some other stuff (like keeping at
least a week ahead of my college students).

Tell me, in a VHF AM double sideband world, how do you implement a zero-IF
receiver? Seems to me that if the on-frequency "local oscillator" needed to
be spot on the carrier drifted just a few hundred Hz. that it would show up
in the detected signal as a howling audio tone. I guess you could implement
a phase-lock arrangement of some sort, but phase locking to submicrovolt
signals ain't all that trivial.

At this point, just of academic interest, but I hope to retire out of
academia next year and would really like to get my hands back on the design
bench. It's been too long ...

(So? What was WRONG with the 6U8 mixer design?)

Jim

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:k6crd196hhaatlka86mbvu1tes2ib8qim5@4ax.com...

ANALYSIS AND DESIGN OF INTEGRATED CIRCUITS, Motorola Series in
Solid-State Electronics, McGraw-Hill, 1967, (before ISBN), Chapter
15, "Frequency-Selective Amplification Without Inductors"

.... written by yours truly ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Frank Raffaeli · Jul 20, 2005

In a receiver, it's better to decimate against a frequency that brings
the image down to a low IF, rather than a zero I.F., to avoid the DC
offset issue and to improve the dynamic range of the detector. In this
case, the absolute value of the IQ vector sum (after low-pass
filtering) is the AM demodulated output. For phase demodulation, the
offset must be subtracted from the result.

For a transmitter, offset is introduced for a different purpose,
usually to prevent injection locking of the VCO with the modulated
carrier.

Frank Raffaeli
http://www.aomwireless.com/

Joerg · Jul 20, 2005

Hello Jim,

Tell me, in a VHF AM double sideband world, how do you implement a zero-IF
receiver? Seems to me that if the on-frequency "local oscillator" needed to
be spot on the carrier drifted just a few hundred Hz. that it would show up
in the detected signal as a howling audio tone. I guess you could implement
a phase-lock arrangement of some sort, but phase locking to submicrovolt
signals ain't all that trivial.

They employ two balanced mixers in an I-Q structure. Sounds easier than
it is in reality. In theory none of the LO energy gets out. In reality
some does. Then it produces the effect you mentioned or, worse, gets
modulated and re-radiated somewhere and then brings in a nice 120Hz rattle.

Here is a paper on it:
http://print.google.com/print/doc?articleid=k5HdiBsrG63

(So? What was WRONG with the 6U8 mixer design?)

Nothing wrong with these, except that right now I am happy that there is
no tube heating up the office. I don't like AC in there so it's a cozy
96F. The ECC81 was my favorite and you could make a nice balanced mixer
with these. With a dynamic range from here to Alaska.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg · Jul 20, 2005

Hello Jim,

Sheeeesh! The things they'll patent as soon as people forget the
masters...

Many patents seem to be written to build a thick portfolio. When
drilling down the claims it often takes less than 1/2 hour to find
serious prior art that would potentially blow it out of the water.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

RST Engineering (jw) · Jul 20, 2005

"Frank Raffaeli" <SNIPrf_man_frTHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121888723.907589.69590@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

In a receiver, it's better to decimate

What means "decimate"???

against a frequency that brings

the image down to a low IF, rather than a zero I.F., to avoid the DC
offset issue and to improve the dynamic range of the detector.

Well, shucks, that's just a single conversion superhet.

In this

case, the absolute value of the IQ vector sum (after low-pass
filtering) is the AM demodulated output.

Are you saying then to use a zero-IF to detect the first IF?

Jim

Andy · Jul 20, 2005

Andy writes:

This reminds me of a dozen years ago when I was an
engineer at Texas Instruments.... I was on the Patent
Committee , and it was our job to review the NUMEROUS
invention disclosures that were submitted by several
hundred engineers in order to determine which ones
would be useful to the company to file.....

Much of the time, the "invention" would be something
that one of us had used 20 years before, and could now be
bought from Digikey or Newark for a couple dollars from
their catalog........ These , of course, were not approved
for filing, and caused great disappointment to the
inventors, who were very proud of their GREAT IDEA....

In fact, most of the ideas were GOOD IDEAS, .... it's
just that someone else had them before, and , while that
doesn't diminish the intellectual kudos for the new inventor, it
did mean that filing for a patent was of no use, since it was
prior art...... You need a lot of old-timers who are also
electronics hobbyists on a patent committee to weed out this
stuff......

So, let's don't "dis" Mr Tayloe -- he had a good idea, and
may have come up with it on his own...... Just like the
other guy did 20 years ago...... It shows he is a , thinking,
innovative person....... sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes
the bear eats you....

Andy

PS My first patent application, ( a half century ago ) was
for a T notch filter which used a transistor as a feedback emitter
follower. It was denied because, 30 years earlier, a fellow
had done the same thing with vacuum tubes........
I was disappointed, of course, since a person's "first " patent is
the one which validates his personal sense of innovative
genius. I recovered, and had a nice career in spite of
it..........
.......... end of nostalgic reverie ........

Joel Kolstad · Jul 20, 2005

"RST Engineering (jw)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote in message
news:11dteoideampoc2@corp.supernews.com...

"Frank Raffaeli" <SNIPrf_man_frTHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121888723.907589.69590@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
In a receiver, it's better to decimate

What means "decimate"???

You take a stream of numbers and insert a bunch of zeroes inbetween them.

Seriously, that's what you do. It 'squishes' (compresses) the frequency
response... see something like section 9 of www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/
Tutorials/450968421DDS_Tutorial_rev12-2-99.pdf, your favorite DSP book,
Google, etc.

Jim Thompson · Jul 20, 2005

On 20 Jul 2005 14:33:31 -0700, "Andy" <andysharpe@juno.com> wrote:

Andy writes:

This reminds me of a dozen years ago when I was an
engineer at Texas Instruments.... I was on the Patent
Committee
[snip]

I was on Motorola's and GenRad's patent committees.

So, let's don't "dis" Mr Tayloe -- he had a good idea, and
may have come up with it on his own...... Just like the
other guy did 20 years ago...... It shows he is a , thinking,
innovative person....... sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes
the bear eats you....

I have that as a wood placque over my office door ;-)

Andy

PS My first patent application, ( a half century ago ) was
for a T notch filter which used a transistor as a feedback emitter
follower. It was denied because, 30 years earlier, a fellow
had done the same thing with vacuum tubes........
I was disappointed, of course, since a person's "first " patent is
the one which validates his personal sense of innovative
genius. I recovered, and had a nice career in spite of
it..........
.......... end of nostalgic reverie ........

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joerg · Jul 20, 2005

Hello Andy,

I was disappointed, of course, since a person's "first " patent is
the one which validates his personal sense of innovative
genius. ...

My personal sense of innovative genius gets validated when the client is
happy, made money with it, and I made money with it ;-)

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

keith · Jul 21, 2005

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:41:12 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On 20 Jul 2005 14:33:31 -0700, "Andy" <andysharpe@juno.com> wrote:

Andy writes:

This reminds me of a dozen years ago when I was an
engineer at Texas Instruments.... I was on the Patent
Committee
[snip]

I was on Motorola's and GenRad's patent committees.

I've served on one of these "boards" for twelve years. It's quite
interesting to see how inventors think. It's also quite interesting to
see what motivates the best of them. It's not what I would have expected
a decade ago. ;-)

So, let's don't "dis" Mr Tayloe -- he had a good idea, and
may have come up with it on his own...... Just like the
other guy did 20 years ago...... It shows he is a , thinking,
innovative person....... sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes
the bear eats you....

I have that as a wood placque over my office door ;-)

Wooden plaque! Ick! Does your dentist know?

Andy

PS My first patent application, ( a half century ago ) was
for a T notch filter which used a transistor as a feedback emitter
follower. It was denied because, 30 years earlier, a fellow
had done the same thing with vacuum tubes........
I was disappointed, of course, since a person's "first " patent is
the one which validates his personal sense of innovative
genius. I recovered, and had a nice career in spite of
it..........
.......... end of nostalgic reverie ........

I've only had one patent application where the examiner tried to deny
it. I replied he was too dumb to understand the concept. He then
allowed it ;-)

Times have changed. Now they're all too dumb, but must reject them
anyway. The USPTO is now a government profit center and rejections
make them more money (think: performance reviews).

--
Keith

Lasse Langwadt Christense · Jul 21, 2005

Joel Kolstad wrote:

"RST Engineering (jw)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote in message
news:11dteoideampoc2@corp.supernews.com...

"Frank Raffaeli" <SNIPrf_man_frTHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121888723.907589.69590@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

In a receiver, it's better to decimate

What means "decimate"???

You take a stream of numbers and insert a bunch of zeroes inbetween them.

Seriously, that's what you do. It 'squishes' (compresses) the frequency
response... see something like section 9 of www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/
Tutorials/450968421DDS_Tutorial_rev12-2-99.pdf, your favorite DSP book,
Google, etc.

adding zeros and lowpass filtering is upsampling or interpolation, lowpass filtering
and removing sample is downsampling or decimation ....

-Lasse

Lasse Langwadt Christense · Jul 21, 2005

Joerg wrote:

Hello Jim,

Sheeeesh! The things they'll patent as soon as people forget the
masters...

Many patents seem to be written to build a thick portfolio. When
drilling down the claims it often takes less than 1/2 hour to find
serious prior art that would potentially blow it out of the water.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

yep, I know atleast on company very much encourage employes too try a get patents
on pretty much anything they can come up with to meet they annual gold of filing
atleast as many patents as the competition and give bonuses for every patent filed...

-Lasse

Ben Bradley · Jul 21, 2005

On 20 Jul 2005 14:33:31 -0700, "Andy" <andysharpe@juno.com> wrote:

Andy writes:

...

So, let's don't "dis" Mr Tayloe -- he had a good idea, and
may have come up with it on his own...... Just like the
other guy did 20 years ago...... It shows he is a , thinking,
innovative person....... sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes
the bear eats you....

Andy

PS My first patent application, ( a half century ago ) was
for a T notch filter which used a transistor as a feedback emitter
follower. It was denied because, 30 years earlier, a fellow
had done the same thing with vacuum tubes........
I was disappointed, of course, since a person's "first " patent is
the one which validates his personal sense of innovative
genius. I recovered, and had a nice career in spite of
it..........
.......... end of nostalgic reverie ........

My name is on two patents, and other than actually contributing to
the design covered by the patents, I had very little to do with it (If
that sounds clear as mud, I hope my explanation below clears it up).
I'm sure I'm a thinking, innovative person, unfortunately that has
little to do with my name being on these patents.
My employer at the time, a quite large company, said they wanted
another patent (which quickly became two patents), and it was going to
be on the product I was co-designing. The managers talked to the
patent attorney, then tje attorney talked to the other engineer and me
for a couple of hours, asking us about the operation of the areas to
be covered by the two patents. What was being applied for had already
been determined by the managers. Between the other engineer and
myself, there were about half a dozen OTHER parts of the circuit or
methods of operation of the device that we would have chosen one or
two to be patented (had we been asked). We would not have thought of
what was being proposed for the patents.
But to management it wasn't so much about protecting innovative
ideas as it was about the company cutting out as big a turf of IP as
it can for each patent, so that it is more likely to find competitors'
products infringing. As was explained to me, this is done as much in
defense as in offense: If another company finds one of our devices
infringes, if we have enough patents so that we can find where they
infringe one of ours, we can cross-license the patents to each other
and go on like nothing happened.
A few months later the attorney sent a draft of the application for
us to comment on. We changed a couple sentences and sent it back.
About a year or two later I got this blurb in the mail saying
"Congratulations! For only $65 you can get the first page of your
patent application with the date it was approved on this extra-nice
plaque!" A couple months later I learned the same way that the second
patent was approved.

Before all this happened, this company had a seminar on patents,
describing some of the ones they had, from the usual things to
business method patents. The one I most remember was where an engineer
patented the addition of a resistor to a circuit when this was
obviously not a big innovation - he was telling his manager he though
it would be approved, the manager didn't think so but let him apply
for it, and of course it WAS approved.
So yes, you CAN get a patent on virtually anything, but of course
enforcing something like that is another matter.

-----
http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley

Terry Given · Jul 21, 2005

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:14:57 -0500, "amdx" <amdx@worldnet.att.net
wrote:

I'm looking at info on the Tayloe detector, I have found the article below,
however, the article is missing the figures. Anyone know how I can get them,
or does anyone have them to send me.

http://rfdesign.com/mag/radio_lownoise_highperformance_zero/

Thanks
Mike

Sheeeesh! The things they'll patent as soon as people forget the
masters...

Franks, L.E. and I.W Sandberg: An Alternative Approach to the
Realization of Network Transfer Functions: The N-Path Filter, BSTJ,
vol. 39, pp. 1321-1350, September, 1960

and for the practical application...

ANALYSIS AND DESIGN OF INTEGRATED CIRCUITS, Motorola Series in
Solid-State Electronics, McGraw-Hill, 1967, (before ISBN), Chapter
15, "Frequency-Selective Amplification Without Inductors"

ISBN: 0070417237

.... written by yours truly ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Fred Abse · Jul 21, 2005

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:41:12 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

I've only had one patent application where the examiner tried to deny
it. I replied he was too dumb to understand the concept. He then
allowed it ;-)

You are well known for your modesty, Jim

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
(Stephen Leacock)

Steve Kavanagh · Jul 21, 2005

I also went looking for the figures (pretty sure it was the same
article). Dan Tayloe was good enough to send me an earlier manuscript
- I think I found him on rec.radio.amateur.homebrew.

Steve Kavanagh

amdx wrote:

I'm looking at info on the Tayloe detector, I have found the article below,
however, the article is missing the figures. Anyone know how I can get them,
or does anyone have them to send me.

http://rfdesign.com/mag/radio_lownoise_highperformance_zero/

Thanks
Mike

Michael A. Terrell · Jul 21, 2005

Andy wrote:

So, let's don't "dis" Mr Tayloe -- he had a good idea, and
may have come up with it on his own...... Just like the
other guy did 20 years ago...... It shows he is a , thinking,
innovative person....... sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes
the bear eats you....

I prefer: "We all have our bears to cross!" ;-)

--
Link to my "Computers for disabled Veterans" project website deleted
after threats were telephoned to my church.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

RFDesign Magazine article--Tayloe

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