resistor matrix for dummy load...

[John Larkin]

I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

which can go from 41 to 1600 ohms.

The first two clusters, two resistors and three relays, allow one
resistor to be on, 2 in series, 2 in parallel, open, and short. This
sort of optimizes spreading the heat out among the resistors.

The problem is that it\'s really hard to think about. It can make 128
useful resistor combinations, and a lot of silly ones. Of the 128, the
sequence of resistances looks kinda goofy; we\'ll select a sub-list
that the customer can select from. Somehow.

Some resistance values appear several times in the list, and some have
better power dissipation sharing than others. 200 ohms is an obvious
case; it can be done 5 different ways. Seven, if some redundant cases
are included.

I wrote a couple of PowerBasic programs to analyze the legal cases,
but somebody will still have to do some hard thinking. Nice puzzle,
actually.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5wqv3xkznsfcuk/P945_M3_SORTED.csv.txt?dl=0

 

[Tabby]

On Thursday, 11 May 2023 at 04:15:38 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

which can go from 41 to 1600 ohms.

The first two clusters, two resistors and three relays, allow one
resistor to be on, 2 in series, 2 in parallel, open, and short. This
sort of optimizes spreading the heat out among the resistors.

The problem is that it\'s really hard to think about. It can make 128
useful resistor combinations, and a lot of silly ones. Of the 128, the
sequence of resistances looks kinda goofy; we\'ll select a sub-list
that the customer can select from. Somehow.

Some resistance values appear several times in the list, and some have
better power dissipation sharing than others. 200 ohms is an obvious
case; it can be done 5 different ways. Seven, if some redundant cases
are included.

I wrote a couple of PowerBasic programs to analyze the legal cases,
but somebody will still have to do some hard thinking. Nice puzzle,
actually.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5wqv3xkznsfcuk/P945_M3_SORTED.csv.txt?dl=0

Your diag shows 8 resistors, 9 relays. Is it not cheaper to use less relays & more powerful resistors?

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 10 May 2023 20:53:47 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Thursday, 11 May 2023 at 04:15:38 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

which can go from 41 to 1600 ohms.

The first two clusters, two resistors and three relays, allow one
resistor to be on, 2 in series, 2 in parallel, open, and short. This
sort of optimizes spreading the heat out among the resistors.

The problem is that it\'s really hard to think about. It can make 128
useful resistor combinations, and a lot of silly ones. Of the 128, the
sequence of resistances looks kinda goofy; we\'ll select a sub-list
that the customer can select from. Somehow.

Some resistance values appear several times in the list, and some have
better power dissipation sharing than others. 200 ohms is an obvious
case; it can be done 5 different ways. Seven, if some redundant cases
are included.

I wrote a couple of PowerBasic programs to analyze the legal cases,
but somebody will still have to do some hard thinking. Nice puzzle,
actually.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5wqv3xkznsfcuk/P945_M3_SORTED.csv.txt?dl=0

Your diag shows 8 resistors, 9 relays. Is it not cheaper to use less relays & more powerful resistors?

The surface-mount solid-state relays are tiny. The 5 watt wirewound
resistors are big and optimizing their use is a serious goal.

The resistors are about 1\" high and I don\'t have room for anything
bigger.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-passive-product/SQMW51R0J/2365645

I can\'t crowd them too much because I need air flow around them.
Paralleling helps a lot to spread the heat too.

About like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j2xj60pxgifvk9w/P945_pcb_may_7.jpg?raw=1

 

[Hul Tytus]

John - possibly for your reference: some time ago I was
testing some 2 watt metal oxide resisters to get an idaea
of how hardy they are with over spec currents. Temperature
wise this went to 800 degf measured by a thermocouple.
At that point a red glow was visible at the center of the
device. Hardy they are. That device, when cool, was slightly
altered in resistance in the neighbor hood of 1 or 2 %.
They went back in the stock bin.

Hul

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

which can go from 41 to 1600 ohms.

The first two clusters, two resistors and three relays, allow one
resistor to be on, 2 in series, 2 in parallel, open, and short. This
sort of optimizes spreading the heat out among the resistors.

The problem is that it\'s really hard to think about. It can make 128
useful resistor combinations, and a lot of silly ones. Of the 128, the
sequence of resistances looks kinda goofy; we\'ll select a sub-list
that the customer can select from. Somehow.

Some resistance values appear several times in the list, and some have
better power dissipation sharing than others. 200 ohms is an obvious
case; it can be done 5 different ways. Seven, if some redundant cases
are included.

I wrote a couple of PowerBasic programs to analyze the legal cases,
but somebody will still have to do some hard thinking. Nice puzzle,
actually.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5wqv3xkznsfcuk/P945_M3_SORTED.csv.txt?dl=0

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 11 May 2023 23:19:00 -0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com>
wrote:

John - possibly for your reference: some time ago I was
testing some 2 watt metal oxide resisters to get an idaea
of how hardy they are with over spec currents. Temperature
wise this went to 800 degf measured by a thermocouple.
At that point a red glow was visible at the center of the
device. Hardy they are. That device, when cool, was slightly
altered in resistance in the neighbor hood of 1 or 2 %.
They went back in the stock bin.

Hul

I\'m going to use some 5 watt wirewounds, maybe push them to 7 watts
with air flow. I expect them to get very hot at 7 watts, and will
measure that.

 

[DJ Delorie]

My 3D printer came with wire wound resistors as the primary nozzle
heaters - a pair of 3W 6.8R. With 12V across them, pumping out 21W
each.

That is, until http://www.delorie.com/photos/3d_prints/img_3201.html

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 11 May 2023 22:35:51 -0400, DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> wrote:

My 3D printer came with wire wound resistors as the primary nozzle
heaters - a pair of 3W 6.8R. With 12V across them, pumping out 21W
each.

Makes me feel better about 7 watts into a 5 watt resistor!

That is, until http://www.delorie.com/photos/3d_prints/img_3201.html

I remember an early Xerox copier that had flame detectors and CO2 fire
extinguishers inside.

My biggest hazard is probably not my ceramic resistors getting too
hot, but crisping the fiberglass PC board.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 11/05/2023 04:15, John Larkin wrote:

I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

which can go from 41 to 1600 ohms.

The first two clusters, two resistors and three relays, allow one
resistor to be on, 2 in series, 2 in parallel, open, and short. This
sort of optimizes spreading the heat out among the resistors.

Isn\'t a dead short likely to somewhat inconvenience the DUT?

I think you need to mask out K7 when K6 & K8 are closed.
Or use a slightly different network that cannot do a dead short.

__ R __[K\']______
V ---[K]---| |
|_______[K\']__R___

Only permits open circuit, either resistor or both.

--
Martin Brown

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 12 May 2023 09:30:13 +0100, Martin Brown
<\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 11/05/2023 04:15, John Larkin wrote:


I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

which can go from 41 to 1600 ohms.

The first two clusters, two resistors and three relays, allow one
resistor to be on, 2 in series, 2 in parallel, open, and short. This
sort of optimizes spreading the heat out among the resistors.

Isn\'t a dead short likely to somewhat inconvenience the DUT?

That\'s the point, to test the customer\'s gadget. I just need to be
sure that my SSRs won\'t blow up.

I think you need to mask out K7 when K6 & K8 are closed.
Or use a slightly different network that cannot do a dead short.

__ R __[K\']______
V ---[K]---| |
|_______[K\']__R___

Only permits open circuit, either resistor or both.

Short is a sellable feature. As in simulating ground faults and
inductance, which are not shown on that diagram.

Of the 512 possible relay patterns, only half make any sense and we\'ll
probably present, maybe, 32 to the customer.

 

[ehsjr]

On 5/10/2023 11:15 PM, John Larkin wrote:

I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

Grunble. I get error (404). Dunno if the problem is
at my end.
Ed

<snip>

 

[Ari Fin]

sebenarnya ini sangat baik lah, pasti

https://arcorpweb.com/tag/jasa-seo-organik/

 

[Ari Fin]

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[John Larkin]

On Fri, 12 May 2023 17:40:21 -0400, ehsjr <ehsjr@verizon.net> wrote:

On 5/10/2023 11:15 PM, John Larkin wrote:


I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

Grunble. I get error (404). Dunno if the problem is
at my end.
Ed

snip

My bad, moving things around on Dropbox. Try this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r7allc4vx1u9wxx/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5wqv3xkznsfcuk/P945_M3_SORTED.csv.txt?dl=0

 

[Martin Brown]

On Friday, May 12, 2023 at 3:49:12 PM UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 12 May 2023 09:30:13 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 11/05/2023 04:15, John Larkin wrote:

I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

which can go from 41 to 1600 ohms.

The first two clusters, two resistors and three relays, allow one
resistor to be on, 2 in series, 2 in parallel, open, and short. This
sort of optimizes spreading the heat out among the resistors.

But it shows a distinct lack of imagination to have them as identical resistors in each leg.
You get an extra value for nothing if you use Golden ratio resistors. eg

E48 100 and 162

Single plus parallel and series combos of those give you 62, 100, 162, 262
1/phi 1 phi phi^2

or E24 100, 100+62

You can eliminate some relays or offer a finer range of values with the same amount of hardware.

Isn\'t a dead short likely to somewhat inconvenience the DUT?
That\'s the point, to test the customer\'s gadget. I just need to be
sure that my SSRs won\'t blow up.

I think you need to mask out K7 when K6 & K8 are closed.
Or use a slightly different network that cannot do a dead short.

__ R __[K\']______
V ---[K]---| |
|_______[K\']__R___

Only permits open circuit, either resistor or both.

Short is a sellable feature. As in simulating ground faults and
inductance, which are not shown on that diagram.

You might want to make the relay for doing a dead short a bit more beefy than the others and protected by a slow blow fuse.
I recall one design where an SSR once caught fire because of over current.

Of the 512 possible relay patterns, only half make any sense and we\'ll
probably present, maybe, 32 to the customer.

Worthwhile making as many as possible make sense if you can.
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[ehsjr]

On 5/12/2023 10:46 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 12 May 2023 17:40:21 -0400, ehsjr <ehsjr@verizon.net> wrote:

On 5/10/2023 11:15 PM, John Larkin wrote:


I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

Grunble. I get error (404). Dunno if the problem is
at my end.
Ed

snip

My bad, moving things around on Dropbox. Try this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r7allc4vx1u9wxx/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5wqv3xkznsfcuk/P945_M3_SORTED.csv.txt?dl=0

Thanks!
Ed

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 13 May 2023 09:27:39 -0700 (PDT), Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On Friday, May 12, 2023 at 3:49:12?PM UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 09:30:13 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 11/05/2023 04:15, John Larkin wrote:

I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

which can go from 41 to 1600 ohms.

The first two clusters, two resistors and three relays, allow one
resistor to be on, 2 in series, 2 in parallel, open, and short. This
sort of optimizes spreading the heat out among the resistors.

But it shows a distinct lack of imagination to have them as identical resistors in each leg.
You get an extra value for nothing if you use Golden ratio resistors. eg

E48 100 and 162

A conductance DAC (R, 2R, 4R...) is even better. 2 is an even golder
number than phi.

But I want to maximize allowable power dissipation with 5 watt
resistors. And we can get quantity discounts on lots of 100 ohm
resistors. And 162 is not a stocked wirewound value.

Of course I considered different values for the second group. And of
course your defaut mode is to insult. You wouldn\'t dare do that in a
pub.

Single plus parallel and series combos of those give you 62, 100, 162, 262
1/phi 1 phi phi^2

or E24 100, 100+62

You can eliminate some relays or offer a finer range of values with the same amount of hardware.

Isn\'t a dead short likely to somewhat inconvenience the DUT?
That\'s the point, to test the customer\'s gadget. I just need to be
sure that my SSRs won\'t blow up.

I think you need to mask out K7 when K6 & K8 are closed.
Or use a slightly different network that cannot do a dead short.

__ R __[K\']______
V ---[K]---| |
|_______[K\']__R___

Only permits open circuit, either resistor or both.

Short is a sellable feature. As in simulating ground faults and
inductance, which are not shown on that diagram.

You might want to make the relay for doing a dead short a bit more beefy than the others and protected by a slow blow fuse.
I recall one design where an SSR once caught fire because of over current.

We will turn on all 9 relays to make the short. It shows a distinct
lack of imagination that you didn\'t see that.

Would an SSR be protected by a slow-blow fuse? I suspect not.

Of the 512 possible relay patterns, only half make any sense and we\'ll
probably present, maybe, 32 to the customer.

Worthwhile making as many as possible make sense if you can.

The big resistors are 5% so having too many steps will be
non-monotonic and look silly. And it\'s just a dummy load that pretends
to be solenoids and torque motors which aren\'t precise anyhow.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Ari Fin]

https://www.folkd.com/ref.php?go=https%3A%2F%2Fini.music-zine.com%2Fhello-world

 

[neo5...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 7:19:09 PM UTC-4, Hul Tytus wrote:

John - possibly for your reference: some time ago I was
testing some 2 watt metal oxide resisters to get an idaea
of how hardy they are with over spec currents. Temperature
wise this went to 800 degf measured by a thermocouple.
At that point a red glow was visible at the center of the
device. Hardy they are. That device, when cool, was slightly
altered in resistance in the neighbor hood of 1 or 2 %.
They went back in the stock bin.

Hul
John Larkin <jla...@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:


I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

which can go from 41 to 1600 ohms.

The first two clusters, two resistors and three relays, allow one
resistor to be on, 2 in series, 2 in parallel, open, and short. This
sort of optimizes spreading the heat out among the resistors.

The problem is that it\'s really hard to think about. It can make 128
useful resistor combinations, and a lot of silly ones. Of the 128, the
sequence of resistances looks kinda goofy; we\'ll select a sub-list
that the customer can select from. Somehow.

Some resistance values appear several times in the list, and some have
better power dissipation sharing than others. 200 ohms is an obvious
case; it can be done 5 different ways. Seven, if some redundant cases
are included.

I wrote a couple of PowerBasic programs to analyze the legal cases,
but somebody will still have to do some hard thinking. Nice puzzle,
actually.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5wqv3xkznsfcuk/P945_M3_SORTED.csv.txt?dl=0

Another choice are the White Cement types. They are designed to run smoking hot.

-dbc

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 11:40:26 -0700 (PDT), \"neo5...@gmail.com\"
<neo5bass@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 7:19:09?PM UTC-4, Hul Tytus wrote:
John - possibly for your reference: some time ago I was
testing some 2 watt metal oxide resisters to get an idaea
of how hardy they are with over spec currents. Temperature
wise this went to 800 degf measured by a thermocouple.
At that point a red glow was visible at the center of the
device. Hardy they are. That device, when cool, was slightly
altered in resistance in the neighbor hood of 1 or 2 %.
They went back in the stock bin.

Hul
John Larkin <jla...@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:


I\'m still playing around with my 8-channel dummy load board. Rather
than simulating resistances electronically, it looks easier to just
switch wirewound resistors with solid-state relays.

Something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj8y8k4tadbg99p/P945_Matrix_M3.jpg?raw=1

which can go from 41 to 1600 ohms.

The first two clusters, two resistors and three relays, allow one
resistor to be on, 2 in series, 2 in parallel, open, and short. This
sort of optimizes spreading the heat out among the resistors.

The problem is that it\'s really hard to think about. It can make 128
useful resistor combinations, and a lot of silly ones. Of the 128, the
sequence of resistances looks kinda goofy; we\'ll select a sub-list
that the customer can select from. Somehow.

Some resistance values appear several times in the list, and some have
better power dissipation sharing than others. 200 ohms is an obvious
case; it can be done 5 different ways. Seven, if some redundant cases
are included.

I wrote a couple of PowerBasic programs to analyze the legal cases,
but somebody will still have to do some hard thinking. Nice puzzle,
actually.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5wqv3xkznsfcuk/P945_M3_SORTED.csv.txt?dl=0


Another choice are the White Cement types. They are designed to run smoking hot.

-dbc

I considered axial resistors. The ceramic ones can run very hot. But
we\'d have to stand them off the board somehow to avoid scorching the
PCB material. Possibly some sort of fancy lead forming. Tricky to
assemble.

The stand-up 5-watt square resistors are easy to insert and to
automated solder. The question is, how hot will the PCB get vs power
per resistor, at some given air flow?

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-passive-product/SQMW51R0J/2365645

I don\'t really mind the resistor surface getting very hot.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 12 Jun 2023 12:24:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<4pre8ilnovvis410t9g535pvsmpvehq14s@4ax.com>:

The stand-up 5-watt square resistors are easy to insert and to
automated solder. The question is, how hot will the PCB get vs power
per resistor, at some given air flow?

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-passive-product/SQMW51R0J/2365645

I don\'t really mind the resistor surface getting very hot.

One worry would perhaps be these resistors un-soldering themselves, causing bad solder joint.
I have seen transformer pins unsoldering in TV sets.

Personally I would move power resistors to a heat sink.
Have peeseebees become a religion?