Regarding XC6216

[H.Azmi]

Hi guyes ,
Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?

 

[Neil Franklin]

Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> writes:

"H.Azmi" wrote:

Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?

My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!

Of course that is just pages which have the 2 pieces of text "6216"
and "data sheet" (or wven "data" and "sheet" separate) on them. Of
course that does not have to be an data sheet for an 6216.

I once got a copy from: http://www.vcc.com/Papers/6200.pdf (at least
my bookmarks say that, in Jan 2001).


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith
- hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware
code generates the software, have you coded today?

 

[Peter Alfke]

If you have experience with google you know to put quotation marks
around : "XC6216 datasheet", and, voila, you get just one hit from a
spanish website:

http://www.ii.uam.es/~laboweb/LabWeb/pdfs/6kconf.pdf

That's the 72-page data sheet.
Isn't google.com great!
Peter Alfke
==================
Neil Franklin wrote:

Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> writes:

"H.Azmi" wrote:

Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?

My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!

Of course that is just pages which have the 2 pieces of text "6216"
and "data sheet" (or wven "data" and "sheet" separate) on them. Of
course that does not have to be an data sheet for an 6216.

I once got a copy from: http://www.vcc.com/Papers/6200.pdf (at least
my bookmarks say that, in Jan 2001).

--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith
- hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware
code generates the software, have you coded today?

 

[Antti Lukats]

"Steve Casselman" <sc_nospam@vcc.com> wrote in message news:<bFZbb.9$AJ4.225483@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>...

as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full public
bitstream documentation (or had at least) also for XC6216 there is
free JERC6K JBits system inclusive Java sources still downloadable
from xilinx download site

so there are historic and educational reasons to have XC6216, if
I would have that board would use it for P&R tool testing, as
bitstream is known and array is relativly simple.


I still have a bag of XC6216s. I really wish Xilinx would publish the
bitstream for the V2Pro. I don't get the logic any more the Pro has DES
encryption so if you want to keep your design secret you can.

Maybe it is time to start an open the bitstream project? Anyone got any good
ideas?

Its already started
http://www.openchip.org

the main website is not yet open, but work is in progress
could you consider donating that bag of XC6216's to openchip project?
there are things you could get in return.

please contact me as antti@openchip.org

antti

PS there isnt much to show yet
http://www.graphord.com/proj/ChipDesigner/mpga.html

this is MPGA SVG viewer, similar could be made with no big effort
for XC6216 it would instantly spit out bitstream from the web based
editor interface.

sure a fitter tool would be needed for real desing fitting but thats
also work in progress

 

[Symon]

Hi Peter,
As an experienced 'Googler' ;-) I found this:-
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=611840&jmp=indexterms&dl=portal&dl=ACM
It's a scalable 2 V, 20 GHz FPGA using SiGe HBT BiCMOS
technology based on the XC6k stuff. Any idea of lead time, pricing?
Just kidding, are you guys involved in this? A small (say a few
thousand gates), superfast CML FPGA would be very useful, probably
used alongside a much bigger, standard part.
cheers, Syms.
p.s. I don't really expect an answer, guess this stuff would be
company confidential anyway.


Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> wrote in message news:<3F70E37B.875585DF@xilinx.com>...

If you have experience with google you know to put quotation marks
around : "XC6216 datasheet", and, voila, you get just one hit from a
spanish website:

http://www.ii.uam.es/~laboweb/LabWeb/pdfs/6kconf.pdf

That's the 72-page data sheet.
Isn't google.com great!
Peter Alfke
==================
Neil Franklin wrote:

Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> writes:

"H.Azmi" wrote:

Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?

My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!

Of course that is just pages which have the 2 pieces of text "6216"
and "data sheet" (or wven "data" and "sheet" separate) on them. Of
course that does not have to be an data sheet for an 6216.

I once got a copy from: http://www.vcc.com/Papers/6200.pdf (at least
my bookmarks say that, in Jan 2001).

--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith
- hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware
code generates the software, have you coded today?

 

[Symon]

Hi Neil,
Congratulations on the funniest post I've seen on CAF for ages!!
Your parody of the precious "Hacker, Unix Guru" getting upset because
someone dared offer advice on how to google was priceless! Thanks for
brightening my day, and keep up the good work!
Meant in good humour, Syms.

 

[Peter Alfke]

My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!
Question: Do you need any more?
The parts do not exist anymore, so why do you need the data sheet?

Peter Alfke, Xilinx

"H.Azmi" wrote:

Hi guyes ,
Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?

 

[Antti Lukats]

Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> wrote in message news:<3F6F1C81.16801DD9@xilinx.com>...

My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!
Question: Do you need any more?
The parts do not exist anymore, so why do you need the data sheet?

Peter Alfke, Xilinx

"H.Azmi" wrote:

Hi guyes ,
Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?

Hi Peter,

there are people who would like to have XC2616, I actually tried
to buy XC6216 development board at ebay (Ray Andraka was selling)
but I was too late

as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full public
bitstream documentation (or had at least) also for XC6216 there is
free JERC6K JBits system inclusive Java sources still downloadable
from xilinx download site

so there are historic and educational reasons to have XC6216, if
I would have that board would use it for P&R tool testing, as
bitstream is known and array is relativly simple.

antti

 

[Steve Casselman]

as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full public
bitstream documentation (or had at least) also for XC6216 there is
free JERC6K JBits system inclusive Java sources still downloadable
from xilinx download site

so there are historic and educational reasons to have XC6216, if
I would have that board would use it for P&R tool testing, as
bitstream is known and array is relativly simple.

I still have a bag of XC6216s. I really wish Xilinx would publish the
bitstream for the V2Pro. I don't get the logic any more the Pro has DES
encryption so if you want to keep your design secret you can.

Maybe it is time to start an open the bitstream project? Anyone got any good
ideas?

Steve

 

[Peter Alfke]

I understand the desire to have XC6216, but the fact is that these parts
are not available. Xilinx, the original manufacturer, does not have a
single part in inventory. (I tried to get one part, and failed!).
So this really is archeology. Why do you want to spend mental energy on
something you cannot obtain. Why prolong the frustration ? The part is
dead, because we could not find any volume customers. The baby died for
lack of a loving home outside academia.

If you give me a good reason, I may be able to find a data sheet, but I
will not go on a meaningless wild-goose chase...
Peter Alfke
=======================
Antti Lukats wrote:

Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> wrote in message news:<3F6F1C81.16801DD9@xilinx.com>...
My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!
Question: Do you need any more?
The parts do not exist anymore, so why do you need the data sheet?

Peter Alfke, Xilinx

"H.Azmi" wrote:

Hi guyes ,
Does any body have datasheet for XC6216 ?

Hi Peter,

there are people who would like to have XC2616, I actually tried
to buy XC6216 development board at ebay (Ray Andraka was selling)
but I was too late

as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full public
bitstream documentation (or had at least) also for XC6216 there is
free JERC6K JBits system inclusive Java sources still downloadable
from xilinx download site

so there are historic and educational reasons to have XC6216, if
I would have that board would use it for P&R tool testing, as
bitstream is known and array is relativly simple.

antti

 

[Tim]

Antti Lukats wrote:

as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full
public
bitstream documentation (or had at least) also for XC6216 there is
free JERC6K JBits system inclusive Java sources still downloadable
from xilinx download site

so there are historic and educational reasons to have XC6216, if
I would have that board would use it for P&R tool testing, as
bitstream is known and array is relativly simple.

Could you use the Virtual FPGA project on a modern device?

 

[Neil Franklin]

"Steve Casselman" <sc_nospam@vcc.com> writes:

as much as I know XC6216 is the only Xilinx device that has full public
bitstream documentation (or had at least)

I still have a bag of XC6216s. I really wish Xilinx would publish the
bitstream for the V2Pro.

Or even just the standard V2 if they want to keep the top of the line
secret (or have some contract with the PPC hard core people).

I don't get the logic any more the Pro has DES
encryption so if you want to keep your design secret you can.

That reason is now dead. But they still have an whole large bag of
others. Such crappy things like "binary compatibility hinders us
innovating". Of course any "binary compatible" market would exclude
all not compatible competitors, so maximal innovation simply does
not matter in that market. And yes this means 2 series (binary and
power), so perhaps take the older V1 designs for this (OK, that loses
DES)?

Maybe it is time to start an open the bitstream project?

Get Xilinx to cooperate with not immediately profit generating (small)
user demands?

Sounds unlikely given present corporate un-culture. It is large
corporations serving (mainly) large-account large corporations, who
could not care for anything other than "what we do today n% more
efficient". Damn the small guys who want to do something different.
Mass manufacturing industry sucks.

Just look how long it take just to get them to deliver their tools for
Linux.


Hmmm, perhaps aim at someone else who wants to expand their lesser
market share?

Ask Altera how many design wins they got from their far earlier
Linux tool availability exploiting Xilinxes stubbornness. Perhaps
they will see public bitstream as an other step in regaining
marketshare.

Or perhaps ask the upcoming 3rd guy Lattice if they want an hot
"accelerator" feature into the market (gain mind share with all the
new entering people). OTOH their "registrate just to see the data
sheets" policy does not point to enlightened people working there.

Or perhaps Actel would like more sales for their ProASIC parts? End of
their underdog status? (I doubt that write-once Antifuse looks good for
the experiment liking sort of people that open bitstreams would attract).

Anyone got any good
ideas?

Publicity campaign among open source hackers? Get then to join an
petition at Xilinx (or Altera or Lattice or Actel)? Slashdot?

Everyone of them would understand the implication of processor
instruction sets being closed (= no Linux). Even just 3D graphic
cards and some USB devices being secret is massively annoying. So
the promise of "make your own chip" (= get rid of the crappy pc
architecture, an future OpenPC) and the point about the parts for
that existing but being closed should be easy to get across.


Or some bluesky ideas:

1. Get own (2nd hand?) chip fabrication line and make an OpenFPGA, with
its bitstream (and chip design?) public? Or (better?) even just be
an fabless house and make the FPGA as open-source portable VHDL or EDIF
and then let anyone download and have a batch of FPGAs made at any
ASIC house.

Could even fix some annoying features of todays commercial devices,
such as making an SRAM FPGA (so least demands on ASIC house), but
with separate battery driven VCCCONF, so it needs no config
device/boottime (just like Flash or Antifuse based FPGAs but without
their process/size/speed problems).

Of course damn patents make it illegal to sell chips implementing some
of the newer features (but the basic 4LUT/FF/Mux logic cell and PIP
based routing should be unencumbered until such a chip is ready for
sales). And just design and "produce for own use" may even make that
moot for some users, so make encumbered extra features compile time
selectable.


2. Or perhaps better ditch FPGAs (a method to get custom chips out of
mass manufacturing an single device), and invent some machine that
looks like an laser printer, but prints ASICs? Same as laser printers
do the same job as offset printing machines, but a lot smaller and
cheaper (but far lower output volume and at lower quality).

Perhaps based on ion implanting? Hmm, I need more semiconductor
physics knowledge.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith
- hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware
code generates the software, have you coded today?

 

[Neil Franklin]

Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> writes:

Neil Franklin wrote:

Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> writes:

My first answer is: look it up on google. You get 747 hits!

Of course that is just pages which have the 2 pieces of text "6216"
and "data sheet" (or wven "data" and "sheet" separate) on them. Of
course that does not have to be an data sheet for an 6216.

I once got a copy from: http://www.vcc.com/Papers/6200.pdf (at least

If you have experience with google

Of course I know how to use google. My posing an link (which I found via
google) should have pointed that out.

you know to put quotation marks
around : "XC6216 datasheet",

And that may require typing XC6200 (Xilinx names their data sheets by
family) or "data sheet" with an blank in between. And adding pdf at
the end reduces clutter also. Still gives 8 pages of hits, most of
them clutter (PDFed university papers which refer to the paper version
of the data sheet), but with above VCC site still as first.

But why about my google experiences, as I evidently ready have already
found one?


What I was critisizing was your "You get 747 hits!" line, and its
style. That number lookes like the result of an typical uninformed
searcher, who doesn't know the difference hits vs usefull links.
That there are 747 actual usefull hits is something I would not
even take into consideration, seeing how few I found 2.5 years ago[1].

[1] Doing historical research into FPGAs. Managed to find CAL1024
and XC6200. But XC2000, the ancester of all, I still have not found
anywhere, grrr. And yes, an "obsolete/EOLed products" page on
xilinx.com would be nice. Actel has everything back to ACT1 still on
their site. That is nice for tracing product evolution, and so designers
experience in what needed changing. I suppose we see here the
collision of industrial "bury the past mistakes as fast as possible"
and academic "publish and learn from past mistakes" style of thinking.


Deriding people (and making snotty[2] google remarks fits in that
category) in not really fitting with the professional image you are
trying to (and usually manage to) hold up.

[2] non-snotty is simply making an remark "you can google for that",
anything that does not say "I have looked but I am not telling you".

Either be helpfull (cut&paste the first link, after claiming to have
found 747 fitting links (or is the 747 just a random invented number?).
Or simply not search and make no remark (costs you the least time) and
leave googling or tips or lecturing on using google to others.

I should add, that above criticism in not Peter Alfke specific, nor
c.a.f specific, but rather a general observation on reactions to "find
something" threads on Usenet. Either be helpfull and search, or preach
"go searching yourself" and then don't do (or pretend to do) an search
just to spite the original poster.


If you intended the "747" as an joke, then it definitely did not come
accross. Lacking intonation, Usenet gets interpreted according to the
readers estimates of the senders views. And with you known "anti old
chips" and "anti open chips" attitide, such an remark comes accross as
snotty.

and, voila, you get just one hit from a
spanish website:
http://www.ii.uam.es/~laboweb/LabWeb/pdfs/6kconf.pdf

Only one? Hmm, you searched XC6216, while I looked for XC6200 (which I
expected the data sheet to have as title (it did), so I found a few more.
But nowhere near 747.

That's the 72-page data sheet.

Oh, the 1.10 version (april 1997), I only had 1.07 (october 1996).
So at least some good came out of giving you an slap.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith
- hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware
code generates the software, have you coded today?