refrigerator repair

[nucleus]

have 12 year old kenmore (whirlpool) refrigerator (top freezer)
style, that is struggling to keep designed temperatures. since
a few days ago, the freezer temp will only get down to 26 degrees
F and the refrigerator temp is about 50 degrees F at best.

have done significant troubleshooting. no problem with evaporator
coils or defrost thermostat or defrost heater or refrigerator defrost
timer. condensor coils are clean, both fans operating properly.

temp of compressor tube outlet (to condenser coil) is 109 degrees
F and temp of compressor tube inlet is 84 degrees F. temp of
tube after capillary expansion just before it goes into evaporator
is barely below freezing. i think it should be much lower than
that.

i am trying to decide if i have a failing compressor or a plugged
freon line line somewhere. there is no evidence of any freon
leaks.

i can email pictures if anyone can help. thanks.

 

[Hipupchuck]

nucleus wrote:

have 12 year old kenmore (whirlpool) refrigerator (top freezer)
style, that is struggling to keep designed temperatures. since
a few days ago, the freezer temp will only get down to 26 degrees
F and the refrigerator temp is about 50 degrees F at best.

have done significant troubleshooting. no problem with evaporator
coils or defrost thermostat or defrost heater or refrigerator defrost
timer. condensor coils are clean, both fans operating properly.

temp of compressor tube outlet (to condenser coil) is 109 degrees
F and temp of compressor tube inlet is 84 degrees F. temp of
tube after capillary expansion just before it goes into evaporator
is barely below freezing. i think it should be much lower than
that.

i am trying to decide if i have a failing compressor or a plugged
freon line line somewhere. there is no evidence of any freon
leaks.

i can email pictures if anyone can help. thanks.
Your compressor is worn out.

 

[Meat Plow]

On Mon, 11 May 2009 19:55:28 -0400, Hipupchuck
<hipupchuck@roadrunner.com>wrote:

nucleus wrote:
have 12 year old kenmore (whirlpool) refrigerator (top freezer)
style, that is struggling to keep designed temperatures. since
a few days ago, the freezer temp will only get down to 26 degrees
F and the refrigerator temp is about 50 degrees F at best.

have done significant troubleshooting. no problem with evaporator
coils or defrost thermostat or defrost heater or refrigerator defrost
timer. condensor coils are clean, both fans operating properly.

temp of compressor tube outlet (to condenser coil) is 109 degrees
F and temp of compressor tube inlet is 84 degrees F. temp of
tube after capillary expansion just before it goes into evaporator
is barely below freezing. i think it should be much lower than
that.

i am trying to decide if i have a failing compressor or a plugged
freon line line somewhere. there is no evidence of any freon
leaks.

i can email pictures if anyone can help. thanks.
Your compressor is worn out.

Plugged freon line would result in a higher than normal high side
pressure and lower than normal suction side pressure depending
on where the obstruction is.

The average evaporator temp is around -20F depending on where you take
the reading, how long the unit has been operating, and what type of
freon is used.

You can figure out how much cooling capacity you have by calculating
the superheat in the condenser. Google it, I used to know it in my
head pretty much but it's been decades since I've had to use it. I
usually can tell by just feeling. The compressor outlet should be too
hot to hold with your fingers (much warmer than 109F) under normal
operating conditions. Either you have a failing compressor which could
be noisy or you have insufficient freon. Remember you don't have to be
able to see where it is leaking and it can leak an ounce or two a
month and you'd never know it until one morning you wake up and your
ice is partially nelted.

You need to get some gauges on it to be sure what kind of pressure you
have on the high side, I can almost assure you it's too low. You can
unplug it then plug it right back in and if the compressor restarts
it's low on freon. I would suspect that before a worn compressor
especially if the compressor isn't making strange noises. And also
enough freon can leak out and you'd never know where it comes from.

Depending on the internal size there isn't a whole lot of freon in
these things to begin with and it doesn't take the loss of very much
to cause the exact problems you describe.

I'd put a tap on the suction line (returning from the evaporator) and
put a few ounces of whatever flavor freon (probably R12) in. Then test
the temps. If it comes back to life you have a leak. Then you need to
take wifey out to pick out a new fridge.

 

[nucleus]

hey Meat Plow, thank you for your reply. i performed the test you
suggested, turned refrig on for 5 minutes, unplugged it, plugged
it back in, the compressor would not start until after 3 cycles of
the thermal overload protector. i deduct this means there is
adequate freon (it only has 4.000 oz of R134a), especially since
the compressor outlet temp is so low (possibly meaning that
line is not plugged. (and i have read that plugged lines are rare.)

i did not mention in my post, that over a year ago, the compressor
began having a rather loud noisy startup, which quietened after
about a minute. at that time, i asked a refrig tech about possible
noisy reed valves, and he suggested i continue to run the refrig
until it quit. so that is where it stands now, still with a noisy
startup, but with inadequate cooling.

i tentatively conclude that i need to order a new compressor and
drier.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
May 12, 8:36 am, Meat Plow <m...@petitmorte.net> wrote:

On Mon, 11 May 2009 19:55:28 -0400, Hipupchuck
hipupch...@roadrunner.com>wrote:

nucleus wrote:
have 12 year old kenmore (whirlpool) refrigerator (top freezer)
style, that is struggling to keep designed temperatures. since
a few days ago, the freezer temp will only get down to 26 degrees
F and the refrigerator temp is about 50 degrees F at best.

have done significant troubleshooting. no problem with evaporator
coils or defrost thermostat or defrost heater or refrigerator defrost
timer.  condensor coils are clean, both fans operating properly.

temp of compressor tube outlet (to condenser coil)  is 109 degrees
F and temp of compressor tube inlet is 84 degrees F.  temp of
tube after capillary expansion just before it goes into evaporator
is barely below freezing.  i think it should be much lower than
that.

i am trying to decide if i have a failing compressor or a plugged
freon line line somewhere.  there is no evidence of any freon
leaks.

i can email pictures if anyone can help.  thanks.
Your compressor is worn out.

Plugged freon line would result in a higher than normal high side
pressure and lower than normal suction side pressure depending
on where the obstruction is.

The average evaporator temp is around -20F depending on where you take
the reading, how long the unit has been operating, and what type of
freon is used.

You can figure out how much cooling capacity you have by calculating
the superheat in the condenser. Google it, I used to know it in my
head pretty much but it's been decades since I've had to use it. I
usually can tell by just feeling. The compressor outlet should be too
hot to hold with your fingers (much warmer than 109F) under normal
operating conditions. Either you have a failing compressor which could
be noisy or you have insufficient freon. Remember you don't have to be
able to see where it is leaking and it can leak an ounce or two a
month and you'd never know it until one morning you wake up and your
ice is partially nelted.

You need to get some gauges on it to be sure what kind of pressure you
have on the high side, I can almost assure you it's too low. You can
unplug it then plug it right back in and if the compressor restarts
it's low on freon. I would suspect that before a worn compressor
especially if the compressor isn't making strange noises. And also
enough freon can leak out and you'd never know where it comes from.

Depending on the internal size there isn't a whole lot of freon in
these things to begin with and it doesn't take the loss of very much
to cause the exact problems you describe.

I'd put a tap on the suction line (returning from the evaporator) and
put a few ounces of whatever flavor freon (probably R12) in. Then test
the temps. If it comes back to life you have a leak. Then you need to
take wifey out to pick out a new fridge.

 

[Mark Zenier]

In article <cfc461b6-a8d9-4941-b173-1556b4999e9d@d2g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
nucleus <rose122550@yahoo.com> wrote:

hey Meat Plow, thank you for your reply. i performed the test you
suggested, turned refrig on for 5 minutes, unplugged it, plugged
it back in, the compressor would not start until after 3 cycles of
the thermal overload protector. i deduct this means there is
adequate freon (it only has 4.000 oz of R134a), especially since
the compressor outlet temp is so low (possibly meaning that
line is not plugged. (and i have read that plugged lines are rare.)

i did not mention in my post, that over a year ago, the compressor
began having a rather loud noisy startup, which quietened after
about a minute. at that time, i asked a refrig tech about possible
noisy reed valves, and he suggested i continue to run the refrig
until it quit. so that is where it stands now, still with a noisy
startup, but with inadequate cooling.

If this unit is old enough to have a separate bi-metal thermal overload
switch and electromechanical start relay, check out the overload
switch as they can fail by self heating and that gives you some really
strange load sensitive operation. Our 1980's Whirlpool had that
problem, where it would run OK until a defrost cycle and then would sit
there overload cycling (a second every minute or so, up to several hours)
and them, like magic, just go ahead and work fine until the next defrost.

The replacement was a combined overload/start relay that appears to work
like a TV set degauss (using posistors or something like that). About $50.

Mark Zenier mzenier@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

 

[nucleus]

did you read my original post? the problem has nothing to do with the
thermal overload protector (i only ran that test after Meat Plow's
suggestion to check for insufficient freon).

On May 14, 10:59 am, mzen...@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier) wrote:

In article <cfc461b6-a8d9-4941-b173-1556b4999...@d2g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,

nucleus  <rose122...@yahoo.com> wrote:
hey Meat Plow, thank you for your reply.  i performed the test you
suggested, turned refrig on for 5 minutes, unplugged it, plugged
it back in, the compressor would not start until after 3 cycles of
the thermal overload protector.  i deduct this means there is
adequate freon (it only has 4.000 oz of R134a), especially since
the compressor outlet temp is so low (possibly meaning that
line is not plugged.  (and i have read that plugged lines are rare.)

i did not mention in my post, that over a year ago, the compressor
began having a rather loud noisy startup, which quietened after
about a minute. at that time, i asked a refrig tech about possible
noisy reed valves, and he suggested i continue to run the refrig
until it quit. so that is where it stands now, still with a noisy
startup, but with inadequate cooling.

If this unit is old enough to have a separate bi-metal thermal overload
switch and electromechanical start relay, check out the overload
switch as they can fail by self heating and that gives you some really
strange load sensitive operation.  Our 1980's Whirlpool had that
problem, where it would run OK until a defrost cycle and then would sit
there overload cycling (a second every minute or so, up to several hours)
and them, like magic, just go ahead and work fine until the next defrost.

The replacement was a combined overload/start relay that appears to work
like a TV set degauss (using posistors or something like that).  About $50.

Mark Zenier  mzen...@eskimo.com  
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

 

[Mark Zenier]

In article <d91b733a-84d4-402b-b3e8-4d925c289239@s28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
nucleus <rose122550@yahoo.com> wrote:

On May 14, 10:59 am, mzen...@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier) wrote:
In article <cfc461b6-a8d9-4941-b173-1556b4999...@d2g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
If this unit is old enough to have a separate bi-metal thermal overload
switch and electromechanical start relay, check out the overload
switch as they can fail by self heating and that gives you some really
strange load sensitive operation.  Our 1980's Whirlpool had that
problem, where it would run OK until a defrost cycle and then would sit
there overload cycling (a second every minute or so, up to several hours)
and them, like magic, just go ahead and work fine until the next defrost.

The replacement was a combined overload/start relay that appears to work
like a TV set degauss (using posistors or something like that).  About $50.

did you read my original post?

Of course not, this is Usenet. ;-)

the problem has nothing to do with the
thermal overload protector (i only ran that test after Meat Plow's
suggestion to check for insufficient freon).

Well, so maybe it will help somebody else reading the archives.

Same brand. The basic symptoms were the same. A change in the sound
at startup, and not keeping temperature were features of my unit, too.
(The difference seems to be that my fridge would get cold SOME of the
time). And your unit did a series of overloads at the start of your test.

The point is that a weak overload switch will give you symptoms that
appear to have nothing to do with its normal function. (The damn
thing isn't supposed to turn itself off, or if it does, it should do
it consistently).

The intermittent nature of the fault, where it would sometimes run
fine and sometime it wouldn't, would make you think it was something
different, unless you were listening to it while it was going through
its short cycles, which it only did about 5-10% of the time.

Didn't show up worth shit on an ohmmeter, either.

If I'd managed to get a pro out to look at it, he probably would have
said junk it, or get a new compressor. The one guy I called wouldn't
even bother coming out. Probably figured, correctly, that it would be
an unprofitable waste of his time. So I fixed it myself.

(A side question. Is is really worth a couple of hundred bucks and
a bunch of your time to fix a 10-15 year old appliance?)

Mark Zenier mzenier@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)