Recommendation Needed: Charging current for a 12V NiMH batte

[QDR]

Greetings all,

Just recently I put together a 12.5 Volt battery pack using ten AA NiMH 1.25 Volt
batteries in series. It has a current capacity of 2300mAh. After creating the first
pack, I then created an identical second, and connected the output of that (in
parallel) with the first. Then simply used epoxy to put the whole unit together as
one 12.5 Volt, 4600mAh battery pack. (Total of 20 AA NiMH batteries.)

My question is, what should now be the optimum charging current for this newly
created battery pack?

I know, at least with typical NiCAD's, that the charging current is supposed to be
approximately 10% of the battery's current capacity (in this case, 460mA) for about
14 hours. Would this be correct for this situation as well? What charging current
would you use? Any advice and comments much appreciated.

Dave

 

[Anthony Fremont]

"QDR" <QDR@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ckc541lls6mmune4ltg4j7n9acpsm2njij@4ax.com...

Greetings all,

Just recently I put together a 12.5 Volt battery pack using ten AA
NiMH 1.25 Volt
batteries in series. It has a current capacity of 2300mAh. After
creating the first

What is the manufacturer and model number of the battery.

pack, I then created an identical second, and connected the output of
that (in
parallel) with the first. Then simply used epoxy to put the whole unit
together as
one 12.5 Volt, 4600mAh battery pack. (Total of 20 AA NiMH batteries.)

My question is, what should now be the optimum charging current for
this newly
created battery pack?

Optimal? You need to define optimal. Is it fast charging or long life?

I know, at least with typical NiCAD's, that the charging current is
supposed to be
approximately 10% of the battery's current capacity (in this case,
460mA) for about
14 hours. Would this be correct for this situation as well? What
charging current
would you use? Any advice and comments much appreciated.

Most NiMH batteries should be able to withstand charge currents up to 1C
(4600mA). Use what the manufacturer says in the datasheet.

 

[QDR]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:04:54 GMT, "Anthony Fremont" <spam@anywhere.com> wrote:

What is the manufacturer and model number of the battery.

Duracell AA/HR6/DC1500 NiMH/1.2V/2300mAh

pack, I then created an identical second, and connected the output of
that (in
parallel) with the first. Then simply used epoxy to put the whole unit
together as
one 12.5 Volt, 4600mAh battery pack. (Total of 20 AA NiMH batteries.)

My question is, what should now be the optimum charging current for
this newly
created battery pack?

Optimal? You need to define optimal. Is it fast charging or long life?

So I assume I can just charge it at 1C (when possible) for approximately 1 hour, or
anything (lower current) below for a greater amount of time. When you say long life,
are you referring more to the overall longevity and life-span of the battery, or to
the length of time the battery will last for a particular charge?

Since my smaller DC supply only puts out 1000mA, I'd probably have to charge the pack
at around 1/4C or less anyway. Perhaps a good balance between long life and fast
charge?

When I connected my DC supply (18VDC) to the battery pack through an ammeter, the
charging current started out slightly above 1000mA. In about 35-40 minutes time, the
current had dropped to around 805mA, if I'm not mistaken, and then started to make
its way back up to 813, 814, 815mA and so on. It was at this point that I
discontinued the charging. Is this normal for a NiMH battery?

 

[mike]

QDR wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:04:54 GMT, "Anthony Fremont" <spam@anywhere.com> wrote:


What is the manufacturer and model number of the battery.


Duracell AA/HR6/DC1500 NiMH/1.2V/2300mAh




pack, I then created an identical second, and connected the output of

that (in

parallel) with the first. Then simply used epoxy to put the whole unit

together as

one 12.5 Volt, 4600mAh battery pack. (Total of 20 AA NiMH batteries.)

My question is, what should now be the optimum charging current for

this newly

created battery pack?

Optimal? You need to define optimal. Is it fast charging or long life?


So I assume I can just charge it at 1C (when possible) for approximately 1 hour, or
anything (lower current) below for a greater amount of time. When you say long life,
are you referring more to the overall longevity and life-span of the battery, or to
the length of time the battery will last for a particular charge?

Since my smaller DC supply only puts out 1000mA, I'd probably have to charge the pack
at around 1/4C or less anyway. Perhaps a good balance between long life and fast
charge?

When I connected my DC supply (18VDC) to the battery pack through an ammeter, the
charging current started out slightly above 1000mA. In about 35-40 minutes time, the
current had dropped to around 805mA, if I'm not mistaken, and then started to make
its way back up to 813, 814, 815mA and so on. It was at this point that I
discontinued the charging. Is this normal for a NiMH battery?

YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS!!!
It's not a good idea to FAST charge batteries in parallel. Small
mismatches can cause almost ALL the current to one side. You don't have
any way to measure the current in each string separately.
You'll probably get away with it at low charge rates.
Check the vendor specs on long-term slow charging. Early NiMH didn't
tolerate this well. Maybe better by now.

It's not a good idea to EVER connect a constant voltage source to charge
a NiMH pack. You need CONTROL of the current in each cell.

You need to monitor something to terminate fast charging.
Temperature works if you measure ALL the cells and don't mind cooking
them every time they charge. I prefer voltage slope sensing with
temperature backup in case something fails.

DO NOT attempt to fast charge based on time alone. You can never be
sure of the initial state of charge. If you expect to time it manually,
you'll make a mess the first time you get a phone call that diverts you.

You didn't disclose the configuration of the pack. For fast charging,
you need equal temperatures, meaning at least equal exposure to ambient.
Depending on how you epoxied them together, you may have created a problem.

There's a bunch of information on the cadex site.
mike

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[Anthony Fremont]

"QDR" <QDR@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3t0641l3r8eahv49j2vv5q28q7o1kvkg5q@4ax.com...

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:04:54 GMT, "Anthony Fremont"
spam@anywhere.com> wrote:

What is the manufacturer and model number of the battery.

Duracell AA/HR6/DC1500 NiMH/1.2V/2300mAh

It's all in here:
http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/others/nimh_6.pdf

pack, I then created an identical second, and connected the output
of
that (in
parallel) with the first. Then simply used epoxy to put the whole
unit
together as
one 12.5 Volt, 4600mAh battery pack. (Total of 20 AA NiMH
batteries.)

My question is, what should now be the optimum charging current for
this newly
created battery pack?

Optimal? You need to define optimal. Is it fast charging or long
life?

So I assume I can just charge it at 1C (when possible) for
approximately 1 hour, or
anything (lower current) below for a greater amount of time. When you
say long life,
are you referring more to the overall longevity and life-span of the
battery, or to
the length of time the battery will last for a particular charge?

I'm referring to how many charge/discharge cycles the battery will
withstand.

Since my smaller DC supply only puts out 1000mA, I'd probably have to
charge the pack
at around 1/4C or less anyway. Perhaps a good balance between long
life and fast
charge?

For various reasons, the datasheet recommends 1C, C/2, C/3 or C/10 but
does not recommend C/4 thru C/9.

When I connected my DC supply (18VDC) to the battery pack through an
ammeter, the
charging current started out slightly above 1000mA. In about 35-40
minutes time, the
current had dropped to around 805mA, if I'm not mistaken, and then
started to make
its way back up to 813, 814, 815mA and so on. It was at this point
that I
discontinued the charging. Is this normal for a NiMH battery?

Possibly. NiMH batteries have a slight voltage dip as they reach full
charge. This could account for the slow increase in current drawn.
However, this voltage dip is so subtle on NiMH's that they recommend
using a backup procedure (such as cell temp or timer) to prevent over
charging. Read the datasheet.

BTW, Mike makes valid points in his post.

 

[QDR]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:54:05 -0800, mike <spamme0@netscape.net> wrote:

When I connected my DC supply (18VDC) to the battery pack through an ammeter, the
charging current started out slightly above 1000mA. In about 35-40 minutes time, the
current had dropped to around 805mA, if I'm not mistaken, and then started to make
its way back up to 813, 814, 815mA and so on. It was at this point that I
discontinued the charging. Is this normal for a NiMH battery?

YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS!!!
It's not a good idea to FAST charge batteries in parallel. Small
mismatches can cause almost ALL the current to one side. You don't have
any way to measure the current in each string separately.

Very good advice, and it should be a concern. By severing the battery pack connection
(no longer connected in parallel) and connecting them both to two separate ammeters
while they are being charged by the same charger, I find the current difference
between the battery packs to be generally less than 5-7%. The difference can start
out larger as the batteries first begin to charge, and then becomes negligible the
closer they get to being fully charged. What's your take on this?

You'll probably get away with it at low charge rates.
Check the vendor specs on long-term slow charging. Early NiMH didn't
tolerate this well. Maybe better by now.

It could be that I got lucky and got some very closely matched batteries with very
similar internal resistances.

It's not a good idea to EVER connect a constant voltage source to charge
a NiMH pack. You need CONTROL of the current in each cell.

I'm not sure I understand this fully. May be a dumb question, but if a battery pack
is comprised of, say, 10 cells, and the battery pack has only two connection points
(one negative, one positive), then how would you control the current to each
individual cell in the pack?

You need to monitor something to terminate fast charging.
Temperature works if you measure ALL the cells and don't mind cooking
them every time they charge. I prefer voltage slope sensing with
temperature backup in case something fails.

What I've done thus far is this: I use a volt meter to closely monitor the voltage of
the battery pack as it charges. In this particular case, the battery pack will reach
a point where the voltage is at around 14.47 volts. It is at this point that the
voltage begins to drop back down several one-hundreths of a volt. And also at that
point that I disconnect the charger; Sort of a human intervention Negative Delta
Voltage charging method, if you will.

DO NOT attempt to fast charge based on time alone.

Never.

You can never be
sure of the initial state of charge. If you expect to time it manually,
you'll make a mess the first time you get a phone call that diverts you.

Agreed.

You didn't disclose the configuration of the pack.

The configuration of the two packs is that they are comprised of 10 identical (in
make and model) Duracell AA batteries to create 12.5 volts. These two packs are then
connected in parallel to give a capacity of 4600mAh rather than only 2300mAh.

For fast charging,
you need equal temperatures, meaning at least equal exposure to ambient.
Depending on how you epoxied them together, you may have created a problem.

The pack is put together in such a way as to create as equal temperature as possible
between all 20 batteries. In fact, all batteries are all within physical contact
within the pack. I have been charging it at approximately C/5. As far as temperature
goes, it seems to be both equal and constant on both sides of the pack throughout
charging, even though it never reaches anything near 140 degrees. There are no hot
spots or cold spots. Very even temperature. A rate of C/5 I think might be still
considered relatively slow, even for a technically termed fast charge.

Recently I purchased the MAHA MH-777P-II Universal charger...

http://www.modelairplanenews.com/click_trips/mar03/maha_charger.asp
http://www.cetsolar.com/c777plus.htm
http://www.bills2way.com/equip/mhc777plusII.html


... to deal with packs (and others such as this), but as of yet have not used it
with this pack. Generally upon buying (or creating) a rechargeable battery pack, I
like to charge it manually first, with ammeters and voltmeters attached so as to
physically see the real-world charging characteristics of the pack.

There's a bunch of information on the cadex site.
mike

Thank you for the info.

 

[Larry Brasfield]

"QDR" <QDR@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:bbvi41db53mnjsc0cmhtr9mqc1tnp1sm2j@4ax.com...

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:54:05 -0800, mike <spamme0@netscape.net> wrote:

I think mike is giving you good advice here, so I'm
only clarifying what went before and answering
your new questions.

When I connected my DC supply (18VDC) to the battery pack through an ammeter, the
charging current started out slightly above 1000mA. In about 35-40 minutes time, the
current had dropped to around 805mA, if I'm not mistaken, and then started to make
its way back up to 813, 814, 815mA and so on. It was at this point that I
discontinued the charging. Is this normal for a NiMH battery?

YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS!!!
It's not a good idea to FAST charge batteries in parallel. Small
mismatches can cause almost ALL the current to one side. You don't have
any way to measure the current in each string separately.

Very good advice, and it should be a concern. By severing the battery pack connection
(no longer connected in parallel) and connecting them both to two separate ammeters
while they are being charged by the same charger, I find the current difference
between the battery packs to be generally less than 5-7%. The difference can start
out larger as the batteries first begin to charge, and then becomes negligible the
closer they get to being fully charged. What's your take on this?

It's luck that you cannot and should not count on.
That is part of the reason for mike's advice.

You'll probably get away with it at low charge rates.
Check the vendor specs on long-term slow charging. Early NiMH didn't
tolerate this well. Maybe better by now.

It could be that I got lucky and got some very closely matched batteries with very
similar internal resistances.

To continue the luck would require similar histories
for the cells. Varying discharge depths and rates,
and varying recharge methods, will make the cells
even less matched than when they were when new.

It's not a good idea to EVER connect a constant voltage source to charge
a NiMH pack. You need CONTROL of the current in each cell.

I'm not sure I understand this fully. May be a dumb question, but if a battery pack
is comprised of, say, 10 cells, and the battery pack has only two connection points
(one negative, one positive), then how would you control the current to each
individual cell in the pack?

The cells are in series, so controlling current in the
string controls it in each cell, automagically.

You need to monitor something to terminate fast charging.
Temperature works if you measure ALL the cells and don't mind cooking
them every time they charge. I prefer voltage slope sensing with
temperature backup in case something fails.

What I've done thus far is this: I use a volt meter to closely monitor the voltage of
the battery pack as it charges. In this particular case, the battery pack will reach
a point where the voltage is at around 14.47 volts. It is at this point that the
voltage begins to drop back down several one-hundreths of a volt. And also at that
point that I disconnect the charger; Sort of a human intervention Negative Delta
Voltage charging method, if you will.

You may be seeing a heating effect as the cells reach
full charge. When that happens, more applied charge
is converted to heat rather than chemical energy.

[Fast charge cautions agreed upon.]

You didn't disclose the configuration of the pack.

The configuration of the two packs is that they are comprised of 10 identical (in
make and model) Duracell AA batteries to create 12.5 volts. These two packs are then
connected in parallel to give a capacity of 4600mAh rather than only 2300mAh.

That connection is problematic because it makes the
problem of unequal current sharing discussed above
all the harder. Can you split the parallel strings for
charging purposes? Or can you afford equalizing
resistors among the strings? (slow discharge)

For fast charging,
you need equal temperatures, meaning at least equal exposure to ambient.
Depending on how you epoxied them together, you may have created a problem.

The pack is put together in such a way as to create as equal temperature as possible
between all 20 batteries. In fact, all batteries are all within physical contact
within the pack. I have been charging it at approximately C/5. As far as temperature
goes, it seems to be both equal and constant on both sides of the pack throughout
charging, even though it never reaches anything near 140 degrees. There are no hot
spots or cold spots. Very even temperature. A rate of C/5 I think might be still
considered relatively slow, even for a technically termed fast charge.

You may want to provide a little extra "insulation"
for the corner cells. They are more exposed to
ambient than the middle cells.

Recently I purchased the MAHA MH-777P-II Universal charger...

http://www.modelairplanenews.com/click_trips/mar03/maha_charger.asp
http://www.cetsolar.com/c777plus.htm
http://www.bills2way.com/equip/mhc777plusII.html


... to deal with packs (and others such as this), but as of yet have not used it
with this pack. Generally upon buying (or creating) a rechargeable battery pack, I
like to charge it manually first, with ammeters and voltmeters attached so as to
physically see the real-world charging characteristics of the pack.

With that interest, you might want temperature sensors
on the battery as well.

--
--Larry Brasfield
email: donotspam_larry_brasfield@hotmail.com
Above views may belong only to me.