[RANT] XILINX, Are you freaking kidding me ?

S

Simon

Guest
So I wanted to know if it was possible to update an old embedded-development kit license that's expired. There's nothing on xilinx' site as far as I can see that allows for old licenses to be renewed. So I go to the support section, fill out the form explaining the situation and send it off.

I promptly get back a canned reply...

--- Cut Here ---
Thank you for your inquiry,

There are three ways to purchase Xilinx products:

Xilinx Sales Reps: http://www.xilinx.com/company/contact/sales-offices.htm
ˇ Sales representatives can help if you do not know which products are best for your design.

Online Store: http://www.xilinx.com/onlinestore/
ˇ The Xilinx Online Store provides a quick and simple way to purchase Xilinx design tools and a selection of development boards and kits directly from Xilinx. Simply locate your product of interest and click the "Buy" link from anywhere on Xilinx.com to get started.

Things to consider before purchasing from the Xilinx Online Store:

ˇ Tax Exempt orders must be placed through distribution.
ˇ On-line purchases are by credit card only. No purchase orders please.
Xilinx accepts the following credit cards: Visa, MasterCard, and American Express
ˇ No Intellectual Products are sold on the On-line Store

Xilinx Distributors: http://www.xilinx.com/company/contact/index.htm

ˇ Xilinx Authorized Distributors offer access to a comprehensive set of Xilinx design tools, IP cores, devices, development boards and kits.

ˇ The Xilinx Productivity Advantage (XPA) Bundling Program is only offered when purchasing through a Xilinx Authorized Distributor. To learn more about how to reduce your design productivity solution costs, please visit http://www.xilinx.com/xpa/.

University Faculty: http://www.xilinx.com/university/professors/index.htm
ˇ Universities may be eligible for full versions of design tools at no charge. University professors must initiate the request at the University Faculty link above.

Thank you,
Xilinx Development System Team
--- Cut Here ---

.... which is useless [I know what I want to use it for, so no sales reps; The online store doesn't provide any option I can see; I can't see distributors being interested in upgrading a kit I bought directly from Xilinx; I'm not at university].

I didn't actually read the reply until the next day due to work/home email filters, so once I've read it, I send in another request, pointing out that the canned reply wasn't useful and asking the same question again, along with "Is it really the case that I have to but a new piece of hardware (which I don't want or need) in order to extend a license for a product I bought directly from you ?" because the only way I can see it being possible on the xilinx site is to re-purchase the same board, thus getting a new license..

Guess what. A few seconds later I get back the exact *same* reply, word for word. No attempt to read/parse the question I asked, just an apparent canned reply for any license/purchase question.

I wanted to work on this in the background, with a project that I think could be useful for my work, but it's not official, so I can't go to the support guys here at work. I would have liked to have tried to use the same device manufacturer as the tens-of-thousands-of-dollars boards that we have here at work, for ease of later porting, but I'm now so frustrated by the lack of human response, I'm going to look at Altera (or anyone else, really, all I want is PCIe and some DDR ram)

I *was* prepared to put down my own hard-earned cash to do this, but I'll be damned if they're getting any of my money now, if they can't even answer a simple question like this, I can't see them being any use once I've spent the money.

Giving up on Xilinx.

Simon.
 
Simon <google@gornall.net> wrote:

So I wanted to know if it was possible to update an old
embedded-development kit license that's expired. There's nothing
on xilinx' site as far as I can see that allows for old licenses
to be renewed. So I go to the support section, fill out the form
explaining the situation and send it off.

I am not sure which software or chips you are interested in.

I am running the webpack (free) version that, each time I run it,
tells me that my license has expired, but I can keep using it.

I could install a newer version, but haven't done that.

The free version does all the chips that I could afford, so I
haven't been interested in others.

-- glen
 
On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 11:17:46 AM UTC-8, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
Simon wrote:

So I wanted to know if it was possible to update an old
embedded-development kit license that's expired. There's nothing
on xilinx' site as far as I can see that allows for old licenses
to be renewed. So I go to the support section, fill out the form
explaining the situation and send it off.

I am not sure which software or chips you are interested in.

I am running the webpack (free) version that, each time I run it,
tells me that my license has expired, but I can keep using it.

I could install a newer version, but haven't done that.

The free version does all the chips that I could afford, so I
haven't been interested in others.

Thanks - the board I have could actually be used with Webpack. The extra license gets me access to the embedded development kit though. It could be kind of useful to have the micro blaze...

Another wrinkle (that I put into the original request to Xilinx, but of course was subsequently ignored) is that the old machine that was used for the licence-id has long since departed to that computer museum in the sky. I think I'm allowed 3 "re-licencing" events, so perhaps I'll try just changing the license to the new host-id, and running the app. I don't care if it warns me, as long as it works - I'm not that familiar with how xilinx licensing works though.

So cheers! I'll give it a go. You've been a whole lot more useful than xilinx support :)

Simon
 
Simon wrote:
On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 11:17:46 AM UTC-8, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
Simon wrote:

So I wanted to know if it was possible to update an old
embedded-development kit license that's expired. There's nothing
on xilinx' site as far as I can see that allows for old licenses
to be renewed. So I go to the support section, fill out the form
explaining the situation and send it off.
I am not sure which software or chips you are interested in.

I am running the webpack (free) version that, each time I run it,
tells me that my license has expired, but I can keep using it.

I could install a newer version, but haven't done that.

The free version does all the chips that I could afford, so I
haven't been interested in others.

Thanks - the board I have could actually be used with Webpack. The extra license gets me access to the embedded development kit though. It could be kind of useful to have the micro blaze...

Another wrinkle (that I put into the original request to Xilinx, but of course was subsequently ignored) is that the old machine that was used for the licence-id has long since departed to that computer museum in the sky. I think I'm allowed 3 "re-licencing" events, so perhaps I'll try just changing the license to the new host-id, and running the app. I don't care if it warns me, as long as it works - I'm not that familiar with how xilinx licensing works though.

So cheers! I'll give it a go. You've been a whole lot more useful than xilinx support :)

Simon

Xilinx licenses don't expire, only the updates / maintenance expires.
So theoretically you still own the license to use the software version
up to the limit of your maintenance contract (typically one year from
last purchase).

If this was an older version of ISE, the license may have been tied to
a MAC address or C-drive serial number, either of which would be in
human readable form in the license file. Also either of these are
easy to clone in a new system. If you still have the old license.dat
file you might not need to "re-license" if you can clone the MAC
or disk S/N. I have done this in the past when old systems went up
in smoke.

--
Gabor
 
On 1/21/2015 1:34 PM, Simon wrote:
So I wanted to know if it was possible to update an old embedded-development kit license that's expired. There's nothing on xilinx' site as far as I can see that allows for old licenses to be renewed. So I go to the support section, fill out the form explaining the situation and send it off.

I promptly get back a canned reply...

--- Cut Here ---
Thank you for your inquiry,

There are three ways to purchase Xilinx products:

Xilinx Sales Reps: http://www.xilinx.com/company/contact/sales-offices.htm
ˇ Sales representatives can help if you do not know which products are best for your design.

Online Store: http://www.xilinx.com/onlinestore/
ˇ The Xilinx Online Store provides a quick and simple way to purchase Xilinx design tools and a selection of development boards and kits directly from Xilinx. Simply locate your product of interest and click the "Buy" link from anywhere on Xilinx.com to get started.

Things to consider before purchasing from the Xilinx Online Store:

ˇ Tax Exempt orders must be placed through distribution.
ˇ On-line purchases are by credit card only. No purchase orders please.
Xilinx accepts the following credit cards: Visa, MasterCard, and American Express
ˇ No Intellectual Products are sold on the On-line Store

Xilinx Distributors: http://www.xilinx.com/company/contact/index.htm

ˇ Xilinx Authorized Distributors offer access to a comprehensive set of Xilinx design tools, IP cores, devices, development boards and kits.

ˇ The Xilinx Productivity Advantage (XPA) Bundling Program is only offered when purchasing through a Xilinx Authorized Distributor. To learn more about how to reduce your design productivity solution costs, please visit http://www.xilinx.com/xpa/.

University Faculty: http://www.xilinx.com/university/professors/index.htm
ˇ Universities may be eligible for full versions of design tools at no charge. University professors must initiate the request at the University Faculty link above.

Thank you,
Xilinx Development System Team
--- Cut Here ---

... which is useless [I know what I want to use it for, so no sales reps; The online store doesn't provide any option I can see; I can't see distributors being interested in upgrading a kit I bought directly from Xilinx; I'm not at university].

I didn't actually read the reply until the next day due to work/home email filters, so once I've read it, I send in another request, pointing out that the canned reply wasn't useful and asking the same question again, along with "Is it really the case that I have to but a new piece of hardware (which I don't want or need) in order to extend a license for a product I bought directly from you ?" because the only way I can see it being possible on the xilinx site is to re-purchase the same board, thus getting a new license.

Guess what. A few seconds later I get back the exact *same* reply, word for word. No attempt to read/parse the question I asked, just an apparent canned reply for any license/purchase question.

I wanted to work on this in the background, with a project that I think could be useful for my work, but it's not official, so I can't go to the support guys here at work. I would have liked to have tried to use the same device manufacturer as the tens-of-thousands-of-dollars boards that we have here at work, for ease of later porting, but I'm now so frustrated by the lack of human response, I'm going to look at Altera (or anyone else, really, all I want is PCIe and some DDR ram)

I *was* prepared to put down my own hard-earned cash to do this, but I'll be damned if they're getting any of my money now, if they can't even answer a simple question like this, I can't see them being any use once I've spent the money.

Giving up on Xilinx.

Instead of ranting, maybe you should look at your approach. What you
call the "support" channel is just a minimum effort at helping those who
don't really have support. If they suggest that you contact sales, then
why not contact sales? I'm sure they will point you in the right
direction. They don't exist solely for taking orders.

I haven't dealt with Xilinx in some years but I have the same issues
with Lattice. I find that human support through FAEs is pretty good.
Also they have a separate channel for licenses which are updated every
year for free. Apparently unlike Xilinx, the Lattice license will stop
your software from working when it expires. That part royally sucks.
It is always on a Friday after 5 PM when I fire up Lattice Diamond (or
previously the "classic" tool) only to find it has expired and I won't
be working on the project over the weekend as I had planned. I am
starting to learn however and have added the license expiration date to
my calendar with a 2 week in advance reminder.

--

Rick
 
On 1/21/2015 5:03 PM, rickman wrote:
On 1/21/2015 1:34 PM, Simon wrote:

So I wanted to know if it was possible to update an old
embedded-development kit license that's expired. There's nothing on
xilinx' site as far as I can see that allows for old licenses to be
renewed. So I go to the support section, fill out the form explaining
the situation and send it off.

I promptly get back a canned reply...

--- Cut Here ---
Thank you for your inquiry,

There are three ways to purchase Xilinx products:

Xilinx Sales Reps:
http://www.xilinx.com/company/contact/sales-offices.htm
ˇ Sales representatives can help if you do not know which
products are best for your design.

Online Store: http://www.xilinx.com/onlinestore/
ˇ The Xilinx Online Store provides a quick and simple way to
purchase Xilinx design tools and a selection of development boards and
kits directly from Xilinx. Simply locate your product of interest and
click the "Buy" link from anywhere on Xilinx.com to get started.

Things to consider before purchasing from the Xilinx Online Store:

ˇ Tax Exempt orders must be placed through distribution.
ˇ On-line purchases are by credit card only. No purchase orders
please.
Xilinx accepts the following credit cards: Visa, MasterCard, and
American Express
ˇ No Intellectual Products are sold on the On-line Store

Xilinx Distributors: http://www.xilinx.com/company/contact/index.htm

ˇ Xilinx Authorized Distributors offer access to a comprehensive
set of Xilinx design tools, IP cores, devices, development boards and
kits.

ˇ The Xilinx Productivity Advantage (XPA) Bundling Program is
only offered when purchasing through a Xilinx Authorized Distributor.
To learn more about how to reduce your design productivity solution
costs, please visit http://www.xilinx.com/xpa/.

University Faculty:
http://www.xilinx.com/university/professors/index.htm
ˇ Universities may be eligible for full versions of design tools
at no charge. University professors must initiate the request at the
University Faculty link above.

Thank you,
Xilinx Development System Team
--- Cut Here ---

... which is useless [I know what I want to use it for, so no sales
reps; The online store doesn't provide any option I can see; I can't
see distributors being interested in upgrading a kit I bought directly
from Xilinx; I'm not at university].

I didn't actually read the reply until the next day due to work/home
email filters, so once I've read it, I send in another request,
pointing out that the canned reply wasn't useful and asking the same
question again, along with "Is it really the case that I have to but a
new piece of hardware (which I don't want or need) in order to extend
a license for a product I bought directly from you ?" because the only
way I can see it being possible on the xilinx site is to re-purchase
the same board, thus getting a new license.

Guess what. A few seconds later I get back the exact *same* reply,
word for word. No attempt to read/parse the question I asked, just an
apparent canned reply for any license/purchase question.

I wanted to work on this in the background, with a project that I
think could be useful for my work, but it's not official, so I can't
go to the support guys here at work. I would have liked to have tried
to use the same device manufacturer as the
tens-of-thousands-of-dollars boards that we have here at work, for
ease of later porting, but I'm now so frustrated by the lack of human
response, I'm going to look at Altera (or anyone else, really, all I
want is PCIe and some DDR ram)

I *was* prepared to put down my own hard-earned cash to do this, but
I'll be damned if they're getting any of my money now, if they can't
even answer a simple question like this, I can't see them being any
use once I've spent the money.

Giving up on Xilinx.

Instead of ranting, maybe you should look at your approach. What you
call the "support" channel is just a minimum effort at helping those who
don't really have support. If they suggest that you contact sales, then
why not contact sales? I'm sure they will point you in the right
direction. They don't exist solely for taking orders.

I haven't dealt with Xilinx in some years but I have the same issues
with Lattice. I find that human support through FAEs is pretty good.
Also they have a separate channel for licenses which are updated every
year for free. Apparently unlike Xilinx, the Lattice license will stop
your software from working when it expires. That part royally sucks. It
is always on a Friday after 5 PM when I fire up Lattice Diamond (or
previously the "classic" tool) only to find it has expired and I won't
be working on the project over the weekend as I had planned. I am
starting to learn however and have added the license expiration date to
my calendar with a 2 week in advance reminder.

Yeah, that does suck. I think the main difference is that Lattice is
using third party tools like Synplify whose licenses are time-limited
and Lattice can't do anything about it. It was the same for xilinx
back when they used the Aldec front-end and FPGA Express for synthesis.
No chip provider wants your license to expire if that means you won't
be designing in and buying their parts. However the third party tool
providers are not getting revenue from chip sales and need another
approach. I seem to recall that Xilinx dropped Aldec (or more likely
the other way around) because Aldec accused Xilinx of not properly
counting the seats of Foundation tools.

--
Gabor
 
Well, it turns out I can install Linux under Parallels on my Mac, fudge the MAC address to be that of the old machine, launch ISE and it asks for a licence file. I downloaded the licence file from Xilinx, installed it, and it works well - it seemed to give me a new year's worth of time for any dates that weren't marked as 'permanent' in fact, and there's no warning messages on launch.

So, no thanks to Xilinx (well, ok, I'll be fair: some thanks for making the licensing system work this way), but many thanks to those who know more about xilinx licensing than I do.

As for contacting sales, the FPGA guys where I work have enough trouble getting Xilinx to help *them* out, and they spend lots (the last board they gave me to write drivers for cost ~$25k, mainly due to the FPGAs, and it's not as though we just build 1 at a time...). I (personally) spend very little.. I've never yet had any luck with a sales(wo)man who didn't see any sort of profit in it for him/her. If the post-sales support is really handled by 'sales', then it ought to be renamed as such; just like if the 'support' section of the website isn't actually there to provide "support", then it's also badly named. All IMHO of course.

Anyway, all's well that ends well. I can get on and try to implement my design, hopefully show the FPGA guys something they won't laugh *too* much at, and maybe it'll even be useful.

Simon
 
I've been using Xilinx tools at work for chips not supported by WebPack.
Process is as following:
* Ask my Xilinx distributor for a quote on Xilinx Logic Edition.
* Get the quote and put it into our company purchase system.
* Wait for our purchase to do their job
* Wait for email from Xilinx that a new license is available
* Go to my Xilinx license page to redeem the license we paid for
* Tie the license to a network NIC (we use floating license)
* Download license file and restart flexlm
* Care about updating for one year
* After one year, either buy new license or don't bother

According to my distributors excellent FAE:
* A purchased Xilinx license is valid forever
* Updates are available 1 year from purchase.
* After this, the last update within the 1 year time is fixed
* To get an update after 1 year has passed, buy a new license
* There is no upgrade price reduction.
* Going from Logic Edition to System Edition is System Edition price

Of all FPGA tools we have, Xilinx is the least difficult one. As long as
we do development on new FPGA chips, we buy a license. When product goes
into production and development stops, we have a perpetual right to use
the dev tools from Xilinx for maintenance of our product.

I see all the time that sneaky bugs needs to be rooted out two or three
years into the product life. Xilinx will still work on the old license
code, while ModelSim and Synopsys will require us to keep paying yearly
fees to be allowed to use for a week or two to find a bug.

--
Svenn
 
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 23:06:49 -0800, Simon wrote:

Well, it turns out I can install Linux under Parallels on my Mac, fudge
the MAC address to be that of the old machine, launch ISE and it asks
for a licence file. I downloaded the licence file from Xilinx, installed
it, and it works well - it seemed to give me a new year's worth of time
for any dates that weren't marked as 'permanent' in fact, and there's no
warning messages on launch.

So, no thanks to Xilinx (well, ok, I'll be fair: some thanks for making
the licensing system work this way), but many thanks to those who know
more about xilinx licensing than I do.

As for contacting sales, the FPGA guys where I work have enough trouble
getting Xilinx to help *them* out, and they spend lots (the last board
they gave me to write drivers for cost ~$25k, mainly due to the FPGAs,
and it's not as though we just build 1 at a time...). I (personally)
spend very little. I've never yet had any luck with a sales(wo)man who
didn't see any sort of profit in it for him/her. If the post-sales
support is really handled by 'sales', then it ought to be renamed as
such; just like if the 'support' section of the website isn't actually
there to provide "support", then it's also badly named. All IMHO of
course.

Anyway, all's well that ends well. I can get on and try to implement my
design, hopefully show the FPGA guys something they won't laugh *too*
much at, and maybe it'll even be useful.

You may want to try your distributor. It's been a few years since I've
actively worked on anything FPGA (apparently I write HDL for my algorithms
so that real FPGA guys have something to sneer at), but when I did, I got
zero help from Xilinx, and great big loads of help from our local Avnet
field applications engineer. Avnet has some arrangement with Xilinx that
makes sure that they get paid if you design in parts due to their efforts,
and at least our local guy here has been incredibly helpful.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
 

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