Question for Phil Allison ...

A

Arfa Daily

Guest
Phil

While you've got your head into amps that eat EL84s, what is your opinion of
running these valves at wildly excessive anode voltages? All of the data
books that I've got show them specced to 300 v max, but there seems to be
several manufacturers that run them way beyond this. It is a Peavey Classic
50 that has prompted me to look into this. It's one that I have looked at a
couple of times for a local shop. It's used out on the road for gigging, and
eats output valves. It's had three sets that I know of in the last 18
months, so this time, I decided to look a bit closer, and discovered that in
subdued lighting, the anodes had a significant glow at idle. I looked at the
anode voltage, and was amazed to find it at around 425 v. Looking at the
bias, the raw bias supply is only -29v to start with, and is then potted
down by a fixed potential divider to around -20 volts or so. By the time
this is 'distributed' to the four grids, it's about -18v. The output valves
seem very 'uncomfortable' as they sit there. They are radiating a LOT of
heat and tend to 'ping' a bit. When they have been on for a while, they get
quite microphonic.

Just for sport, I lifted the bottom resistor of the bias divider, and hung a
pot in series with it. Adjusting for around -24 v at the grids eliminates
the hot anodes, and makes the valves seem altogether happier. Although they
will still burn your fingers if you touch them, they do not feel like an
electric fire element in front of your hand at that level of bias, and are
no longer microphonic when hot. I only measured a drop of a few watts, which
initially was well over the 50 watts that this amp is supposed to do anyway,
and didn't detect any difference in distortion levels or the 'sound' of it,
although I would be the first to admit that I am no 'muso'. On that note,
from what I can gather, these Peaveys tend to be used by blues-y players
rather than rock players anyway, so I would have expected them to be softly
biased for a 'fat' sound, rather than run to the limit for a hard edgy rock
sound.

I've let the shop take it back for the moment with the bias at this new
level, and let the shop owner have a go with it, as he is a muso. I spoke to
him a few minutes ago, and he reckons that it sounds fine, so I am tempted
to declare this as a reliability mod.

Just interested in your opinion on this, and your experience of these
Classic 50s if you have much or even any experience of them.

Arfa
 
On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, Arfa Daily wrote:
Phil While you've got your head into amps that eat EL84s, what is your opinion of running these valves at wildly excessive anode voltages? All of the data books that I've got show them specced to 300 v max, but there seems to be several manufacturers that run them way beyond this. It is a Peavey Classic 50 that has prompted me to look into this. It's one that I have looked at a couple of times for a local shop. It's used out on the road for gigging, and eats output valves. It's had three sets that I know of in the last 18 months, so this time, I decided to look a bit closer, and discovered that in subdued lighting, the anodes had a significant glow at idle. I looked at the anode voltage, and was amazed to find it at around 425 v. Looking at the bias, the raw bias supply is only -29v to start with, and is then potted down by a fixed potential divider to around -20 volts or so. By the time this is 'distributed' to the four grids, it's about -18v. The output valves seem very 'uncomfortable' as they sit there. They are radiating a LOT of heat and tend to 'ping' a bit. When they have been on for a while, they get quite microphonic. Just for sport, I lifted the bottom resistor of the bias divider, and hung a pot in series with it. Adjusting for around -24 v at the grids eliminates the hot anodes, and makes the valves seem altogether happier. Although they will still burn your fingers if you touch them, they do not feel like an electric fire element in front of your hand at that level of bias, and are no longer microphonic when hot. I only measured a drop of a few watts, which initially was well over the 50 watts that this amp is supposed to do anyway, and didn't detect any difference in distortion levels or the 'sound' of it, although I would be the first to admit that I am no 'muso'. On that note, from what I can gather, these Peaveys tend to be used by blues-y players rather than rock players anyway, so I would have expected them to be softly biased for a 'fat' sound, rather than run to the limit for a hard edgy rock sound. I've let the shop take it back for the moment with the bias at this new level, and let the shop owner have a go with it, as he is a muso. I spoke to him a few minutes ago, and he reckons that it sounds fine, so I am tempted to declare this as a reliability mod. Just interested in your opinion on this, and your experience of these Classic 50s if you have much or even any experience of them. Arfa
I don't have experience with EL84s. but with 6L6's which I believe are somewhat similar. The Anodes should NEVER be glowing, not ever!!!! It would be great if you could measure both the cathode current and (hopefully zero) the grid current. Sounds like your increasing the negative grid bias cooled things down to the point where it won't eat output tubes so quickly.

I have used (back in 1957 when I was a college senior and goofy) a 6L6 as the power output tube in a college homebrew and illegal AM radio station. The 6L6 also served as the oscillator and the modulator. It was supposed to be AM, but some checking with an oscilloscope showed a remarkable amout of FM as well, unfortunately it was in the AM broadcast band so no one could take advantage of our dual output station. We ran the 6L6 at the max power we could get based on the information in the RCA tube manual. I still have some old tube manuals, but I'm too lazy to go to the basement to look up the max power dissipation.
 
"Arfa Daily"
Just interested in your opinion on this, and your experience of these
Classic 50s if you have much or even any experience of them.
** Seen a few - mostly with dead EL84s.

The secret to using high anode voltages is the screen voltage must stay
below 300V. Peavey have a 400 ohm resistor in the feed to the EL84 screens
and B+ and B++, but as the screen current of typical EL84s is only 1 or 2
mA at idle, the final screen supply is still too high until the amp is
driven very hard.

http://www.prowessamplifiers.com/schematics/post/peavey_classic50.pdf

See 6BQ5 data for Class B and 300V supply:

http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/127/6/6BQ5.pdf

So the design is flawed.

You could try using JJ EL84s, they are a bit tougher.

Or add a string of 5 or 6 15V, 5W zeners in series with the screen supply
to drop the voltage at idle closer to 300V.



.... Phil
 
I only measured a drop of a few watts, which
initially was well over the 50 watts that this amp is supposed to do anyway,
and didn't detect any difference in distortion levels or the 'sound' of it,
although I would be the first to admit that I am no 'muso'. On that note,
from what I can gather, these Peaveys tend to be used by blues-y players
rather than rock players anyway, so I would have expected them to be softly
biased for a 'fat' sound, rather than run to the limit for a hard edgy rock
sound.


Arfa



One of my customers has a Classic 50 and complains about the number of sets
of tubes he goes through, now I can see why.
I haven't seen very many of these at all, so guess they are not that common,
at least not in the UK.


The Peavey Classic 30 also has 4 x EL84, and is one of the best sounding
amps around IMHO.




Gareth.
 
"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:b5rp64FesipU1@mid.individual.net...
"Arfa Daily"

Just interested in your opinion on this, and your experience of these
Classic 50s if you have much or even any experience of them.


** Seen a few - mostly with dead EL84s.

The secret to using high anode voltages is the screen voltage must stay
below 300V. Peavey have a 400 ohm resistor in the feed to the EL84 screens
and B+ and B++, but as the screen current of typical EL84s is only 1 or 2
mA at idle, the final screen supply is still too high until the amp is
driven very hard.

http://www.prowessamplifiers.com/schematics/post/peavey_classic50.pdf

See 6BQ5 data for Class B and 300V supply:

http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/127/6/6BQ5.pdf

So the design is flawed.

You could try using JJ EL84s, they are a bit tougher.

Or add a string of 5 or 6 15V, 5W zeners in series with the screen supply
to drop the voltage at idle closer to 300V.



... Phil
Thanks for that. That's a useful bit of info regarding the screen supply,
and a nice simple fix to get the level down. Do you think that would be
sufficient to bring the idle power dissipation down to acceptable levels, or
do you think that I should combine that mod with mine to back off the idle
current by increasing the bias ?

Arfa
 
"Gareth Magennis" <gareth.magennis@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:C93Kt.16054$Bb6.10562@fx30.am4...
I only measured a drop of a few watts, which
initially was well over the 50 watts that this amp is supposed to do
anyway,
and didn't detect any difference in distortion levels or the 'sound' of
it,
although I would be the first to admit that I am no 'muso'. On that note,
from what I can gather, these Peaveys tend to be used by blues-y players
rather than rock players anyway, so I would have expected them to be
softly
biased for a 'fat' sound, rather than run to the limit for a hard edgy
rock
sound.


Arfa



One of my customers has a Classic 50 and complains about the number of
sets of tubes he goes through, now I can see why.
I haven't seen very many of these at all, so guess they are not that
common, at least not in the UK.


The Peavey Classic 30 also has 4 x EL84, and is one of the best sounding
amps around IMHO.




Gareth.

Something that you might check with your customer, is the setting of the
mains selector switch on the back. On the one that I was looking at, it was
on the "220/230" setting. When I changed this to "240", it dropped the anode
voltage by around 50v, which was still excessive by what it said on the data
sheet, but has to help a bit ??

Arfa
 
"Arfa Daily"
"Phil Allison"
"Arfa Daily"

Just interested in your opinion on this, and your experience of these
Classic 50s if you have much or even any experience of them.


** Seen a few - mostly with dead EL84s.

The secret to using high anode voltages is the screen voltage must stay
below 300V. Peavey have a 400 ohm resistor in the feed to the EL84
screens and B+ and B++, but as the screen current of typical EL84s is
only 1 or 2 mA at idle, the final screen supply is still too high until
the amp is driven very hard.

http://www.prowessamplifiers.com/schematics/post/peavey_classic50.pdf

See 6BQ5 data for Class B and 300V supply:

http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/127/6/6BQ5.pdf

So the design is flawed.

You could try using JJ EL84s, they are a bit tougher.

Or add a string of 5 or 6 15V, 5W zeners in series with the screen
supply to drop the voltage at idle closer to 300V.


Thanks for that. That's a useful bit of info regarding the screen supply,
and a nice simple fix to get the level down. Do you think that would be
sufficient to bring the idle power dissipation down to acceptable levels,

** Yes.


do you think that I should combine that mod with mine to back off the idle
current by increasing the bias ?
** The bias current will drop sharply as the screen voltage drops.

Pentodes are very sensitive to the screen supply voltage - as are beam
tubes.

With 300V on the screens, the grid bias needs to be 14V or 15V.


.... Phil
 
"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:b5u1grFttf7U1@mid.individual.net...
"Arfa Daily"
"Phil Allison"
"Arfa Daily"

Just interested in your opinion on this, and your experience of these
Classic 50s if you have much or even any experience of them.


** Seen a few - mostly with dead EL84s.

The secret to using high anode voltages is the screen voltage must stay
below 300V. Peavey have a 400 ohm resistor in the feed to the EL84
screens and B+ and B++, but as the screen current of typical EL84s is
only 1 or 2 mA at idle, the final screen supply is still too high until
the amp is driven very hard.

http://www.prowessamplifiers.com/schematics/post/peavey_classic50.pdf

See 6BQ5 data for Class B and 300V supply:

http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/127/6/6BQ5.pdf

So the design is flawed.

You could try using JJ EL84s, they are a bit tougher.

Or add a string of 5 or 6 15V, 5W zeners in series with the screen
supply to drop the voltage at idle closer to 300V.


Thanks for that. That's a useful bit of info regarding the screen supply,
and a nice simple fix to get the level down. Do you think that would be
sufficient to bring the idle power dissipation down to acceptable levels,


** Yes.


do you think that I should combine that mod with mine to back off the
idle current by increasing the bias ?

** The bias current will drop sharply as the screen voltage drops.

Pentodes are very sensitive to the screen supply voltage - as are beam
tubes.

With 300V on the screens, the grid bias needs to be 14V or 15V.


... Phil
OK. So let me get this straight. Leave the anode as is (just over 400v).
Reduce screen supply down to around 300v. Leave the bias supply as it is -
which was around -18v at the grid, and will presumably stay at around that
level even with the reduced screen volts, as it's a fixed negative supply
from the PSU ?

Arfa
 
"Arfa Daily"
OK. So let me get this straight. Leave the anode as is (just over 400v).
Reduce screen supply down to around 300v. Leave the bias supply as it is -
which was around -18v at the grid, and will presumably stay at around that
level even with the reduced screen volts, as it's a fixed negative supply
from the PSU ?

** IIWY - I would try about 75V worth of 5W zeners and see how it goes.

Solder them onto piece of 8 or 10 way tag strip and bolt it inside.

Adjust the bias down a bit if there is visible x-over distortion at full
power.



..... Phil
 
<hrhofmann@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:815e3b91-c776-40ea-95e6-b6d693ef5796@googlegroups.com...
On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, Arfa Daily wrote:
Phil While you've got your head into amps that eat EL84s, what is your
opinion of running these valves at wildly excessive anode voltages? All
of the data books that I've got show them specced to 300 v max, but there
seems to be several manufacturers that run them way beyond this.
A friend of mine had a Selmar amp with 2x EL-somethingorother, and a failing
FW rectifier tube, so I bunged a couple of silicon rectifiers in on the
valveholder tags.

I didn't have a DMM capable of measuring the original HT - let alone what it
was now, but there was a strangely pretty ghostly blue glow round the edges
of the mica supports and the amp was a fair bit louder.
 
"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:b5up18F40k1U1@mid.individual.net...
"Arfa Daily"


OK. So let me get this straight. Leave the anode as is (just over 400v).
Reduce screen supply down to around 300v. Leave the bias supply as it
is - which was around -18v at the grid, and will presumably stay at
around that level even with the reduced screen volts, as it's a fixed
negative supply from the PSU ?


** IIWY - I would try about 75V worth of 5W zeners and see how it goes.

Solder them onto piece of 8 or 10 way tag strip and bolt it inside.

Adjust the bias down a bit if there is visible x-over distortion at full
power.



.... Phil
OK, thanks

Arfa
 

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