Question for old-timers re: Simpson meters

M

Mark Zacharias

Guest
Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of Simpson meters -
maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate reliability. They were all being
pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5 hz or so for years on end and none had failed.

Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and maybe a link to
the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.
 
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of Simpson
meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate reliability. They were
all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5 hz or so for years on end and
none had failed.
Click to expand...
that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from contamination.
there's not much to fail,especially if you're not transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are the biggest
problems with Simpson meters,aside from being dropped.
Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and maybe a
link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.
Click to expand...


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
 
On Jan 14, 8:18 am, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zachar...@sbclobal.net> wrote innews:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of Simpson
meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate reliability. They were
all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5 hz or so for years on end and
none had failed.

that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from contamination.
there's not much to fail,especially if you're not transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are the biggest
problems with Simpson meters,aside from being dropped.



Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and maybe a
link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.

Mark Z.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Click to expand...
You might check with the guy who runs simpson260.com
Regards,
Wendell
 
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D005EBA3EB83jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of Simpson
meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate reliability. They were
all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5 hz or so for years on end and
none had failed.

that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from contamination.
there's not much to fail,especially if you're not transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are the biggest
problems with Simpson meters,aside from being dropped.

Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and maybe a
link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.





--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Click to expand...

Not surprising except perhaps considering mechanical issues - bearings,
solder - to-coil connections, spring and/or taut-band failure, etc. As I
recall, they were running this way for maybe over 20 years.

They may have been naked meter movements and not complete VOM's.

Like to have that picture, though...

Mark Z.
 
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00c8f14f$0$1584$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D005EBA3EB83jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of Simpson
meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate reliability. They
were all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5 hz or so for years on
end and none had failed.

that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from contamination.
there's not much to fail,especially if you're not transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are the
biggest problems with Simpson meters,aside from being dropped.

Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and maybe a
link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.





--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


Not surprising except perhaps considering mechanical issues -
bearings, solder - to-coil connections, spring and/or taut-band
failure, etc. As I recall, they were running this way for maybe over
20 years.

They may have been naked meter movements and not complete VOM's.

Like to have that picture, though...

Mark Z.
Click to expand...
those meters on the wall were likely left in one switch position and thus
not any different than a "naked meter movement" with a resistor in series
to measure voltage instead of current.

BTW,I still have my Simpson 270-3 VOM. Works great.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
 
Jim Yanik wrote:
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00c8f14f$0$1584$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D005EBA3EB83jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of Simpson
meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate reliability. They
were all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5 hz or so for years on
end and none had failed.

that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from contamination.
there's not much to fail,especially if you're not transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are the
biggest problems with Simpson meters,aside from being dropped.

Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and maybe
a link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


Not surprising except perhaps considering mechanical issues -
bearings, solder - to-coil connections, spring and/or taut-band
failure, etc. As I recall, they were running this way for maybe over
20 years.

They may have been naked meter movements and not complete VOM's.

Like to have that picture, though...

Mark Z.



those meters on the wall were likely left in one switch position and
thus not any different than a "naked meter movement" with a resistor
in series to measure voltage instead of current.

BTW,I still have my Simpson 270-3 VOM. Works great.
Click to expand...
I, too, still have my 260-3 that I bought from Allied Electronics in 1965,
while serving in the Navy. It's not totally original, since I replaced the
original meter movement in the late 60s with a taut band movement from a
damaged instrument, and later selected the range resistors to improve the
accuracy. Since then, it has served flawlessly, and on the last
calibration, was still +/- 1% on all DC voltage and current ranges. AC and
resistance ranges were a bit less accurate, but still well within specs.
In all, it was $65 well spent..

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net
 
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D0156C3ADDA4jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00c8f14f$0$1584$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D005EBA3EB83jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of Simpson
meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate reliability. They
were all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5 hz or so for years on
end and none had failed.

that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from contamination.
there's not much to fail,especially if you're not transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are the
biggest problems with Simpson meters,aside from being dropped.

Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and maybe a
link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.





--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


Not surprising except perhaps considering mechanical issues -
bearings, solder - to-coil connections, spring and/or taut-band
failure, etc. As I recall, they were running this way for maybe over
20 years.

They may have been naked meter movements and not complete VOM's.

Like to have that picture, though...

Mark Z.



those meters on the wall were likely left in one switch position and thus
not any different than a "naked meter movement" with a resistor in series
to measure voltage instead of current.

BTW,I still have my Simpson 270-3 VOM. Works great.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Click to expand...

I have a 270-2 and it's one of my favorites. Just a "no-bull***t" meter that
just does it's job, and is deadly accurate. One thing I really like about it
is the meter ballistics. Readings are quick, but with no overshoot and
virtually no "settling down" time. My AVO's for example are really nice and
accurate but much slower to get a reading. As collectors pieces or
occasional use it's not a problem but in everyday shop use the faster
readings are a blessing.
My other Simpsons include a 260-6P, a 260 XLPM, a 635 Bach-Simpson, and a
303 VTVM. Several are featured as guest meters at simpson260.com.

Mark Z.
 
"Dave M" <dgminala4444@mediacombb.net> wrote in message
news:LcydnZhaWvohgMzWnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
Jim Yanik wrote:
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00c8f14f$0$1584$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D005EBA3EB83jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of Simpson
meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate reliability. They
were all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5 hz or so for years on
end and none had failed.

that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from contamination.
there's not much to fail,especially if you're not transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are the
biggest problems with Simpson meters,aside from being dropped.

Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and maybe
a link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


Not surprising except perhaps considering mechanical issues -
bearings, solder - to-coil connections, spring and/or taut-band
failure, etc. As I recall, they were running this way for maybe over
20 years.

They may have been naked meter movements and not complete VOM's.

Like to have that picture, though...

Mark Z.



those meters on the wall were likely left in one switch position and
thus not any different than a "naked meter movement" with a resistor
in series to measure voltage instead of current.

BTW,I still have my Simpson 270-3 VOM. Works great.

I, too, still have my 260-3 that I bought from Allied Electronics in 1965,
while serving in the Navy. It's not totally original, since I replaced
the original meter movement in the late 60s with a taut band movement from
a damaged instrument, and later selected the range resistors to improve
the accuracy. Since then, it has served flawlessly, and on the last
calibration, was still +/- 1% on all DC voltage and current ranges. AC
and resistance ranges were a bit less accurate, but still well within
specs.
In all, it was $65 well spent..

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net
Click to expand...
Models 260-3 and later have internal adjustments which can obtain accuracy
to a very high degree. The 10 volt range suffers a bit at full scale but I
adjust mine for best accuracy in the 5 to 5.6 volt range, where small
differences can be huge in modern equipment.
Sometimes you just have to use a good digital meter though, and I have
several of them as well. Yamaha receivers use protection circuits where the
difference between 1.2 and 1.4 volts, for example, can be critical.

Trouble is we often take the readings of a digital as "gospel". Recently a
co-workers' cheap digital was discovered to have approximately a 50% error
when we were reading a Vsus line in a plasma. We were trying to find why the
reading was 295 volts instead of the desired 195. After trying a different
power supply board, it was discovered the multimeter had come up lame.

Mark Z.
 
Mark Zacharias wrote:

"Dave M" <dgminala4444@mediacombb.net> wrote in message
news:LcydnZhaWvohgMzWnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@giganews.com...

Jim Yanik wrote:

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00c8f14f$0$1584$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D005EBA3EB83jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of Simpson
meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate reliability. They
were all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5 hz or so for years on
end and none had failed.


that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from contamination.
there's not much to fail,especially if you're not transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are the
biggest problems with Simpson meters,aside from being dropped.


Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and maybe
a link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.

--

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com



Not surprising except perhaps considering mechanical issues -
bearings, solder - to-coil connections, spring and/or taut-band
failure, etc. As I recall, they were running this way for maybe over
20 years.

They may have been naked meter movements and not complete VOM's.

Like to have that picture, though...

Mark Z.



those meters on the wall were likely left in one switch position and
thus not any different than a "naked meter movement" with a resistor
in series to measure voltage instead of current.

BTW,I still have my Simpson 270-3 VOM. Works great.


I, too, still have my 260-3 that I bought from Allied Electronics in
1965, while serving in the Navy. It's not totally original, since I
replaced the original meter movement in the late 60s with a taut band
movement from a damaged instrument, and later selected the range
resistors to improve the accuracy. Since then, it has served
flawlessly, and on the last calibration, was still +/- 1% on all DC
voltage and current ranges. AC and resistance ranges were a bit less
accurate, but still well within specs.
In all, it was $65 well spent..

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net




Models 260-3 and later have internal adjustments which can obtain
accuracy to a very high degree. The 10 volt range suffers a bit at full
scale but I adjust mine for best accuracy in the 5 to 5.6 volt range,
where small differences can be huge in modern equipment.
Sometimes you just have to use a good digital meter though, and I have
several of them as well. Yamaha receivers use protection circuits where
the difference between 1.2 and 1.4 volts, for example, can be critical.

Trouble is we often take the readings of a digital as "gospel". Recently
a co-workers' cheap digital was discovered to have approximately a 50%
error when we were reading a Vsus line in a plasma. We were trying to
find why the reading was 295 volts instead of the desired 195. After
trying a different power supply board, it was discovered the multimeter
had come up lame.

Mark Z.
You're suppose to calibrate analog scales at 75% of their deflection.
Click to expand...
 
"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1xk4n.6308$%P5.991@newsfe21.iad...
Mark Zacharias wrote:

"Dave M" <dgminala4444@mediacombb.net> wrote in message
news:LcydnZhaWvohgMzWnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@giganews.com...

Jim Yanik wrote:

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00c8f14f$0$1584$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D005EBA3EB83jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of Simpson
meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate reliability. They
were all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5 hz or so for years on
end and none had failed.


that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from contamination.
there's not much to fail,especially if you're not transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are the
biggest problems with Simpson meters,aside from being dropped.


Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and maybe
a link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.

--

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com



Not surprising except perhaps considering mechanical issues -
bearings, solder - to-coil connections, spring and/or taut-band
failure, etc. As I recall, they were running this way for maybe over
20 years.

They may have been naked meter movements and not complete VOM's.

Like to have that picture, though...

Mark Z.



those meters on the wall were likely left in one switch position and
thus not any different than a "naked meter movement" with a resistor
in series to measure voltage instead of current.

BTW,I still have my Simpson 270-3 VOM. Works great.


I, too, still have my 260-3 that I bought from Allied Electronics in
1965, while serving in the Navy. It's not totally original, since I
replaced the original meter movement in the late 60s with a taut band
movement from a damaged instrument, and later selected the range
resistors to improve the accuracy. Since then, it has served
flawlessly, and on the last calibration, was still +/- 1% on all DC
voltage and current ranges. AC and resistance ranges were a bit less
accurate, but still well within specs.
In all, it was $65 well spent..

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net




Models 260-3 and later have internal adjustments which can obtain
accuracy to a very high degree. The 10 volt range suffers a bit at full
scale but I adjust mine for best accuracy in the 5 to 5.6 volt range,
where small differences can be huge in modern equipment.
Sometimes you just have to use a good digital meter though, and I have
several of them as well. Yamaha receivers use protection circuits where
the difference between 1.2 and 1.4 volts, for example, can be critical.

Trouble is we often take the readings of a digital as "gospel". Recently
a co-workers' cheap digital was discovered to have approximately a 50%
error when we were reading a Vsus line in a plasma. We were trying to
find why the reading was 295 volts instead of the desired 195. After
trying a different power supply board, it was discovered the multimeter
had come up lame.

Mark Z.
You're suppose to calibrate analog scales at 75% of their deflection.
Click to expand...
That's a pretty general statement... but sounds like a good idea in many
cases.
I have an RCA WV-38A one adjustment of which is for 1 mA full scale.

Mark Z.
 
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00b076d3$0$16796$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in
message news:1xk4n.6308$%P5.991@newsfe21.iad...
Mark Zacharias wrote:

"Dave M" <dgminala4444@mediacombb.net> wrote in message
news:LcydnZhaWvohgMzWnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@giganews.com...

Jim Yanik wrote:

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00c8f14f$0$1584$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D005EBA3EB83jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of
Simpson meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate
reliability. They were all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5
hz or so for years on end and none had failed.


that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from
contamination. there's not much to fail,especially if you're not
transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are
the biggest problems with Simpson meters,aside from being
dropped.


Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and
maybe a link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.

--

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com



Not surprising except perhaps considering mechanical issues -
bearings, solder - to-coil connections, spring and/or taut-band
failure, etc. As I recall, they were running this way for maybe
over 20 years.

They may have been naked meter movements and not complete VOM's.

Like to have that picture, though...

Mark Z.



those meters on the wall were likely left in one switch position
and thus not any different than a "naked meter movement" with a
resistor in series to measure voltage instead of current.

BTW,I still have my Simpson 270-3 VOM. Works great.


I, too, still have my 260-3 that I bought from Allied Electronics
in 1965, while serving in the Navy. It's not totally original,
since I replaced the original meter movement in the late 60s with a
taut band movement from a damaged instrument, and later selected
the range resistors to improve the accuracy. Since then, it has
served flawlessly, and on the last calibration, was still +/- 1% on
all DC voltage and current ranges. AC and resistance ranges were a
bit less accurate, but still well within specs.
In all, it was $65 well spent..

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net




Models 260-3 and later have internal adjustments which can obtain
accuracy to a very high degree. The 10 volt range suffers a bit at
full scale but I adjust mine for best accuracy in the 5 to 5.6 volt
range, where small differences can be huge in modern equipment.
Sometimes you just have to use a good digital meter though, and I
have several of them as well. Yamaha receivers use protection
circuits where the difference between 1.2 and 1.4 volts, for
example, can be critical.

Trouble is we often take the readings of a digital as "gospel".
Recently a co-workers' cheap digital was discovered to have
approximately a 50% error when we were reading a Vsus line in a
plasma. We were trying to find why the reading was 295 volts instead
of the desired 195. After trying a different power supply board, it
was discovered the multimeter had come up lame.

Mark Z.
You're suppose to calibrate analog scales at 75% of their deflection.
Click to expand...

Sez who?

That's a pretty general statement... but sounds like a good idea in
many cases.
I have an RCA WV-38A one adjustment of which is for 1 mA full scale.

Mark Z.
Click to expand...
Simpson meter movements are usually 50uA FS,but I recall one that was less
than that. A BIG meter.

One thing to worry about with analog meters is their input Z.
It varys with range. digital DMMs don't,and usually have a higher Z.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
 
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D02BDB4E1AA6jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00b076d3$0$16796$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in
message news:1xk4n.6308$%P5.991@newsfe21.iad...
Mark Zacharias wrote:

"Dave M" <dgminala4444@mediacombb.net> wrote in message
news:LcydnZhaWvohgMzWnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@giganews.com...

Jim Yanik wrote:

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00c8f14f$0$1584$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D005EBA3EB83jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of
Simpson meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate
reliability. They were all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5
hz or so for years on end and none had failed.


that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from
contamination. there's not much to fail,especially if you're not
transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are
the biggest problems with Simpson meters,aside from being
dropped.


Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and
maybe a link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.

--

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com



Not surprising except perhaps considering mechanical issues -
bearings, solder - to-coil connections, spring and/or taut-band
failure, etc. As I recall, they were running this way for maybe
over 20 years.

They may have been naked meter movements and not complete VOM's.

Like to have that picture, though...

Mark Z.



those meters on the wall were likely left in one switch position
and thus not any different than a "naked meter movement" with a
resistor in series to measure voltage instead of current.

BTW,I still have my Simpson 270-3 VOM. Works great.


I, too, still have my 260-3 that I bought from Allied Electronics
in 1965, while serving in the Navy. It's not totally original,
since I replaced the original meter movement in the late 60s with a
taut band movement from a damaged instrument, and later selected
the range resistors to improve the accuracy. Since then, it has
served flawlessly, and on the last calibration, was still +/- 1% on
all DC voltage and current ranges. AC and resistance ranges were a
bit less accurate, but still well within specs.
In all, it was $65 well spent..

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net




Models 260-3 and later have internal adjustments which can obtain
accuracy to a very high degree. The 10 volt range suffers a bit at
full scale but I adjust mine for best accuracy in the 5 to 5.6 volt
range, where small differences can be huge in modern equipment.
Sometimes you just have to use a good digital meter though, and I
have several of them as well. Yamaha receivers use protection
circuits where the difference between 1.2 and 1.4 volts, for
example, can be critical.

Trouble is we often take the readings of a digital as "gospel".
Recently a co-workers' cheap digital was discovered to have
approximately a 50% error when we were reading a Vsus line in a
plasma. We were trying to find why the reading was 295 volts instead
of the desired 195. After trying a different power supply board, it
was discovered the multimeter had come up lame.

Mark Z.
You're suppose to calibrate analog scales at 75% of their deflection.



Sez who?




That's a pretty general statement... but sounds like a good idea in
many cases.
I have an RCA WV-38A one adjustment of which is for 1 mA full scale.

Mark Z.



Simpson meter movements are usually 50uA FS,but I recall one that was less
than that. A BIG meter.

One thing to worry about with analog meters is their input Z.
It varys with range. digital DMMs don't,and usually have a higher Z.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Click to expand...

I was having a discussion about that with a glass-head buddy at work. He
opined that a regular VOM would load down a plate voltage reading if there
is a high value plate resistor, so one should use a DMM instead.
Trouble with that was, a 20 kOhm/volt meter on a 1000 volt range, which
would be the range often used in this situation, adds up to 20 meg - double
the input resistance of a typical DMM.

Obviously grid voltage would be another matter...

Mark Z.
 
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D02BDB4E1AA6jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00b076d3$0$16796$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in
message news:1xk4n.6308$%P5.991@newsfe21.iad...
Mark Zacharias wrote:

"Dave M" <dgminala4444@mediacombb.net> wrote in message
news:LcydnZhaWvohgMzWnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@giganews.com...

Jim Yanik wrote:

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00c8f14f$0$1584$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D005EBA3EB83jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of
Simpson meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate
reliability. They were all being pulsed with DC of perhaps 0.5
hz or so for years on end and none had failed.


that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from
contamination. there's not much to fail,especially if you're not
transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are
the biggest problems with Simpson meters,aside from being
dropped.


Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and
maybe a link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.

--

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com



Not surprising except perhaps considering mechanical issues -
bearings, solder - to-coil connections, spring and/or taut-band
failure, etc. As I recall, they were running this way for maybe
over 20 years.

They may have been naked meter movements and not complete VOM's.

Like to have that picture, though...

Mark Z.



those meters on the wall were likely left in one switch position
and thus not any different than a "naked meter movement" with a
resistor in series to measure voltage instead of current.

BTW,I still have my Simpson 270-3 VOM. Works great.


I, too, still have my 260-3 that I bought from Allied Electronics
in 1965, while serving in the Navy. It's not totally original,
since I replaced the original meter movement in the late 60s with a
taut band movement from a damaged instrument, and later selected
the range resistors to improve the accuracy. Since then, it has
served flawlessly, and on the last calibration, was still +/- 1% on
all DC voltage and current ranges. AC and resistance ranges were a
bit less accurate, but still well within specs.
In all, it was $65 well spent..

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net




Models 260-3 and later have internal adjustments which can obtain
accuracy to a very high degree. The 10 volt range suffers a bit at
full scale but I adjust mine for best accuracy in the 5 to 5.6 volt
range, where small differences can be huge in modern equipment.
Sometimes you just have to use a good digital meter though, and I
have several of them as well. Yamaha receivers use protection
circuits where the difference between 1.2 and 1.4 volts, for
example, can be critical.

Trouble is we often take the readings of a digital as "gospel".
Recently a co-workers' cheap digital was discovered to have
approximately a 50% error when we were reading a Vsus line in a
plasma. We were trying to find why the reading was 295 volts instead
of the desired 195. After trying a different power supply board, it
was discovered the multimeter had come up lame.

Mark Z.
You're suppose to calibrate analog scales at 75% of their deflection.



Sez who?




That's a pretty general statement... but sounds like a good idea in
many cases.
I have an RCA WV-38A one adjustment of which is for 1 mA full scale.

Mark Z.



Simpson meter movements are usually 50uA FS,but I recall one that was less
than that. A BIG meter.

One thing to worry about with analog meters is their input Z.
It varys with range. digital DMMs don't,and usually have a higher Z.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Click to expand...

Yes, nominally one adjusts the swamp resistor for 50 uA at full scale, but
I'm not afraid to fudge that a little to get the overall accuracy where I
want it. I use these things to measure voltage, rarely current, and if I am
measuring current, it's only going to be measuring battery charge current or
the like, not a critical application.

Mark Z.
 
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00017320$0$2285$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D02BDB4E1AA6jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...

One thing to worry about with analog meters is their input Z.
It varys with range. digital DMMs don't,and usually have a higher Z.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


I was having a discussion about that with a glass-head buddy at work.
He opined that a regular VOM would load down a plate voltage reading
if there is a high value plate resistor, so one should use a DMM
instead. Trouble with that was, a 20 kOhm/volt meter on a 1000 volt
range, which would be the range often used in this situation, adds up
to 20 meg - double the input resistance of a typical DMM.

Obviously grid voltage would be another matter...

Mark Z.
Click to expand...
I made a HV probe for my 10Meg-Z DMM,gives me 100MegZ but I have to use a
lower range or divide by 10.

But how many tube circuits do you encouter these days?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
 
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:000174b0$0$2281$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D02BDB4E1AA6jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...

Simpson meter movements are usually 50uA FS,but I recall one that was
less than that. A BIG meter.

One thing to worry about with analog meters is their input Z.
It varys with range. digital DMMs don't,and usually have a higher Z.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


Yes, nominally one adjusts the swamp resistor for 50 uA at full scale,
but I'm not afraid to fudge that a little to get the overall accuracy
where I want it. I use these things to measure voltage, rarely
current, and if I am measuring current, it's only going to be
measuring battery charge current or the like, not a critical
application.

Mark Z.
Click to expand...
The thing is,the FIRST cal check/adjustment you make is the basic 50ua
setting,then you go on to check the other ranges and make other
adjustments. That 50ua cal adjust affects ALL the other ranges and modes.
adjusting it to optimize other ranges may hide an out of tolerance
resistor.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
 
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D038A55798Fjyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:000174b0$0$2281$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D02BDB4E1AA6jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...

Simpson meter movements are usually 50uA FS,but I recall one that was
less than that. A BIG meter.

One thing to worry about with analog meters is their input Z.
It varys with range. digital DMMs don't,and usually have a higher Z.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


Yes, nominally one adjusts the swamp resistor for 50 uA at full scale,
but I'm not afraid to fudge that a little to get the overall accuracy
where I want it. I use these things to measure voltage, rarely
current, and if I am measuring current, it's only going to be
measuring battery charge current or the like, not a critical
application.

Mark Z.



The thing is,the FIRST cal check/adjustment you make is the basic 50ua
setting,then you go on to check the other ranges and make other
adjustments. That 50ua cal adjust affects ALL the other ranges and modes.
adjusting it to optimize other ranges may hide an out of tolerance
resistor.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I do. Manufacturers procedure first, then tweak as I
feel necessary to make it a little better for what I do. When I vary the
50uA adjustment a bit (maybe 1 or 2 per cent), it's because I feel the
overall accuracy of the meter is off a bit.

Mark Z.
 
Mark Zacharias wrote:
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D02BDB4E1AA6jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00b076d3$0$16796$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in
message news:1xk4n.6308$%P5.991@newsfe21.iad...
Mark Zacharias wrote:

"Dave M" <dgminala4444@mediacombb.net> wrote in message
news:LcydnZhaWvohgMzWnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@giganews.com...

Jim Yanik wrote:

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00c8f14f$0$1584$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D005EBA3EB83jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:003beb0d$0$2118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

Hi,

As some of the guys here know, I presently collect old analog
multimeters.

I recall a picture I saw several years ago of a "wall" of
Simpson meters - maybe 50 or more, used to demonstrate
reliability. They were all being pulsed with DC of perhaps
0.5 hz or so for years on end and none had failed.


that's not surprising;
the meter movements are very simple and sealed from
contamination. there's not much to fail,especially if you're
not transporting them.

the batteries leaking or resistors going out of tolerance are
the biggest problems with Simpson meters,aside from being
dropped.


Anybody remember this and where can I get a JPG of this, and
maybe a link to the info?

I've tried Google images etc no luck.


Mark Z.

--

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com



Not surprising except perhaps considering mechanical issues -
bearings, solder - to-coil connections, spring and/or taut-band
failure, etc. As I recall, they were running this way for maybe
over 20 years.

They may have been naked meter movements and not complete
VOM's. Like to have that picture, though...

Mark Z.



those meters on the wall were likely left in one switch position
and thus not any different than a "naked meter movement" with a
resistor in series to measure voltage instead of current.

BTW,I still have my Simpson 270-3 VOM. Works great.


I, too, still have my 260-3 that I bought from Allied Electronics
in 1965, while serving in the Navy. It's not totally original,
since I replaced the original meter movement in the late 60s
with a taut band movement from a damaged instrument, and later
selected the range resistors to improve the accuracy. Since
then, it has served flawlessly, and on the last calibration, was
still +/- 1% on all DC voltage and current ranges. AC and
resistance ranges were a bit less accurate, but still well
within specs. In all, it was $65 well spent..

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net




Models 260-3 and later have internal adjustments which can obtain
accuracy to a very high degree. The 10 volt range suffers a bit at
full scale but I adjust mine for best accuracy in the 5 to 5.6
volt range, where small differences can be huge in modern
equipment. Sometimes you just have to use a good digital meter
though, and I have several of them as well. Yamaha receivers use
protection circuits where the difference between 1.2 and 1.4
volts, for example, can be critical.

Trouble is we often take the readings of a digital as "gospel".
Recently a co-workers' cheap digital was discovered to have
approximately a 50% error when we were reading a Vsus line in a
plasma. We were trying to find why the reading was 295 volts
instead of the desired 195. After trying a different power supply
board, it was discovered the multimeter had come up lame.

Mark Z.
You're suppose to calibrate analog scales at 75% of their
deflection.


Sez who?




That's a pretty general statement... but sounds like a good idea in
many cases.
I have an RCA WV-38A one adjustment of which is for 1 mA full scale.

Mark Z.



Simpson meter movements are usually 50uA FS,but I recall one that
was less than that. A BIG meter.

One thing to worry about with analog meters is their input Z.
It varys with range. digital DMMs don't,and usually have a higher Z.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


Yes, nominally one adjusts the swamp resistor for 50 uA at full
scale, but I'm not afraid to fudge that a little to get the overall
accuracy where I want it. I use these things to measure voltage,
rarely current, and if I am measuring current, it's only going to be
measuring battery charge current or the like, not a critical
application.
Mark Z.
Click to expand...

There are only three adjustments in the Simpson 260-3. The 50uA (250 mv)
adjustment sets the basic accuracy for all functions and ranges. This is
the only DC adjustment in a 260-3. The other adjustments are for the 250
VAC and 2.5 VAC voltage ranges. If one or more of the DC voltage or current
ranges or the other AC voltage ranges need adjustment, you have to change
the range multiplier resistors. The same applies to the resistance ranges.

All of the instrument calibrations that I have ever done (and I've done a
LOT) requires the adjustments to be made at full scale (for both digital and
analog instruments). The linearity checks are made at major points
throughout the ranges. AC voltage/current and resistance adjustments might
be made at points other than full scale, but that's highly instrument
dependent, and is specified in the cal procedure.

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net
 
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D038A55798Fjyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:000174b0$0$2281$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D02BDB4E1AA6jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...

Simpson meter movements are usually 50uA FS,but I recall one that was
less than that. A BIG meter.
Click to expand...
<snip>

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Click to expand...
That would be the Simpson 269, 100kOhm per volt. They look bigger all right,
never seen one in the flesh. There was also the model 262 which looked the
same but was conventional 20 kOhm per volt.

On the subject of BIG meters, I have a beautiful Hickok 209A which I need to
give the refurb treatment and make an AC probe for... now THAT is big!


Mark Z.
 
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:00d82bb7$0$23796$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D038A55798Fjyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbclobal.net> wrote in
news:000174b0$0$2281$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D02BDB4E1AA6jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...

Simpson meter movements are usually 50uA FS,but I recall one that
was less than that. A BIG meter.

snip

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

That would be the Simpson 269, 100kOhm per volt. They look bigger all
right, never seen one in the flesh. There was also the model 262 which
looked the same but was conventional 20 kOhm per volt.

On the subject of BIG meters, I have a beautiful Hickok 209A which I
need to give the refurb treatment and make an AC probe for... now THAT
is big!


Mark Z.
Click to expand...
Yes,that's the model,269.the meter face is almost the entire front of the
meter,and the face is about a 8" diagonal,IIRC.

I may still have the meter movement in my junkbox,I was making it into a
capacitance meter.
ISTR I did finish that project.....or did I?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
 
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