QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled

J

Jan Panteltje

Guest
QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of Schrödinger's cat (and finally save it)

Copenhagen is dead.
 
On 6/3/2019 21:28, Jan Panteltje wrote:
QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of Schrödinger's cat (and finally save it)

Copenhagen is dead.
Click to expand...

Astounding. And they managed it experimentally, not just another
theory on paper. Superb science, what can one say.

Dimiter

======================================================
Dimiter Popoff, TGI http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/
 
On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 2:29:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of SchrĂśdinger's cat (and finally save it)

Copenhagen is dead.
Click to expand...

Hardly a cat,
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1803.00545.pdf

Reading.. over all gain of 10^12! If I'm reading that at all
correctly, it seems that it takes some time to make a 'jump' and they
can 'see' the in between state. That sorta makes sense in my limited
understanding. (They had to pick states where the transition was slow
enough to monitor.) pretty cool!

George H.
 
On a sunny day (Mon, 3 Jun 2019 13:29:27 -0700 (PDT)) it happened George
Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote in
<3883dc2a-43db-4dd3-a9a5-49a00efc49af@googlegroups.com>:

On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 2:29:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of Schr=C3=B6dinger's cat (and finally
save it)

Copenhagen is dead.

Hardly a cat,
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1803.00545.pdf

Reading.. over all gain of 10^12! If I'm reading that at all
correctly, it seems that it takes some time to make a 'jump' and they
can 'see' the in between state. That sorta makes sense in my limited
understanding. (They had to pick states where the transition was slow
enough to monitor.) pretty cool!

George H.
Click to expand...

Ha! Thank for the link to the paper, could not find it last night
they wanted 8$ or so from Nature..
 
On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 1:27:36 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Mon, 3 Jun 2019 13:29:27 -0700 (PDT)) it happened George
Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote in
3883dc2a-43db-4dd3-a9a5-49a00efc49af@googlegroups.com>:

On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 2:29:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of Schr=C3=B6dinger's cat (and finally
save it)

Copenhagen is dead.

Hardly a cat,
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1803.00545.pdf

Reading.. over all gain of 10^12! If I'm reading that at all
correctly, it seems that it takes some time to make a 'jump' and they
can 'see' the in between state. That sorta makes sense in my limited
understanding. (They had to pick states where the transition was slow
enough to monitor.) pretty cool!

George H.

Ha! Thank for the link to the paper, could not find it last night
they wanted 8$ or so from Nature..
Click to expand...

In a search engine put title of paper in quotes and add arxiv after.
George H.
 
"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message news:qd3otn$l74$1@dont-email.me...

QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of SchrĂśdinger's cat (and finally save
it)

Copenhagen is dead.
Click to expand...

Very unlikely, in the technical sense. One has to know what the "Copenhagen"
interpretation actually is.

I had a look at the paper and, as yet, makes little sense to me. However,
ones has to separate the usual media twaddle descriptions of what it claims
Quantum Mechanics is, to that which QM really says it is.

QM says nothing about what "really" happens. It makes statistical statements
about measurements. The *interpretations* of the mathematics and its
definitions, are simply irrelevant, and form no part of the postulates of
QM, and how to calculate in the QM Hilbert Space. What Bohr, or anyone says
about "reality" is generally twaddle. There is *only* the math and the
experimental results.

QM is quite clear in that it is, essentially, impossible to assign values to
observables independent of the measurement. If this fails, pretty much all
of QM is probably false. I don't see that as realistic. This means any
experiment to make such an evaluation, as QM is inherently entwined in the
actual methods used to make quantum measurements, is probably flawed. Its
hard to do a quantum measurement that does not assume quantum mechanics in
its constructions, although maybe possible.

The Kochen–Specker theorem, essential, says one simply can't assign a dead
or alive state to the cat at all. Its just twaddle where the mass media
fodder explanation tries as put this out as "in both states at once". QM
says no such thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kochen%E2%80%93Specker_theorem

This, physics qualified, guy has a rather entertaining way of explaining the
issues involved

https://motls.blogspot.com/2012/08/simple-proof-qm-implies-many-worlds.html?m=1


-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html
 
If the box isn't perfectly shielded then it's giving away state, and
obviously the cat needn't be in a perfect superposition. Copenhagen isn't
dead, they're just blasting it with microwaves.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qd3otn$l74$1@dont-email.me...
QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of Schrödinger's cat (and finally save
it)

Copenhagen is dead.
Click to expand...
 
On a sunny day (Tue, 4 Jun 2019 20:32:18 +0100) it happened "Kevin Aylward"
<kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote in
<cf6dnSzpm97ZWmvBnZ2dnUU78dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>:

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message news:qd3otn$l74$1@dont-email.me...

QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of SchrĂśdinger's cat (and finally save
it)

Copenhagen is dead.

Very unlikely, in the technical sense. One has to know what the "Copenhagen"
interpretation actually is.
Click to expand...

Indeed.


>I had a look at the paper and, as yet, makes little sense to me.

It is very simple to me.
electron orbits around an atom.
some energy is added
electron jumps to next higher orbit.

Electron is all the time locked to 3 microwave signals.
JUST before it jumps to the next orbit the microwave detectors see an energy 'dip'.
This signals that a 'quantum' (and that is where the word originates, in the interaction of the medium with the electron)
jump is about to happen.

100% predictable.
Also when they notice this, they can change the energy fed into the system by the microwaves so
the 'quantum' jump does not happen.
Super simple.
Totally classical.

Just a few days earlier I explained here to look at it (the electron)
as a ball connected to a pole in the ocean.
I stated that EVERYTHING that moves in that ocean causes waves, and the sum of all those waves
at the point where the ball is, determines if it will break the wire and is knocked lose.
100% deterministic classical mechanics.

Now ball -> electron, charge, microwaves control ball.

There is a smooth crossover of the electron orbits shown in this experiment, 100% controlled by the applied waves.
No 'quantization'.
Kids math
Where is the problem?

It is a beautiful experiment that (hopefully) once and for all does away with 'you cannot ...' what QM is based on.
waves, De Broglie, I like his viewpoint.

In a bigger view, it holds all over the universe,
we know that electron 'jump' is controlled by the sum of all waves generated by moving charges all over the universe.
Totally classical.

Its late more tomorrow,.
 
On a sunny day (Tue, 04 Jun 2019 20:02:22 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
<pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote in <qd6ioh$erv$1@dont-email.me>:

On a sunny day (Tue, 4 Jun 2019 20:32:18 +0100) it happened "Kevin Aylward"
kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote in
cf6dnSzpm97ZWmvBnZ2dnUU78dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>:

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message news:qd3otn$l74$1@dont-email.me...

QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of SchrĂśdinger's cat (and finally save
it)

Copenhagen is dead.

Very unlikely, in the technical sense. One has to know what the "Copenhagen"
interpretation actually is.

Indeed.


I had a look at the paper and, as yet, makes little sense to me.

It is very simple to me.
electron orbits around an atom.
some energy is added
electron jumps to next higher orbit.

Electron is all the time locked to 3 microwave signals.
JUST before it jumps to the next orbit the microwave detectors see an energy 'dip'.
This signals that a 'quantum' (and that is where the word originates, in the interaction of the medium with the electron)
jump is about to happen.

100% predictable.
Also when they notice this, they can change the energy fed into the system by the microwaves so
the 'quantum' jump does not happen.
Super simple.
Totally classical.

Just a few days earlier I explained here to look at it (the electron)
as a ball connected to a pole in the ocean.
I stated that EVERYTHING that moves in that ocean causes waves, and the sum of all those waves
at the point where the ball is, determines if it will break the wire and is knocked lose.
100% deterministic classical mechanics.

Now ball -> electron, charge, microwaves control ball.

There is a smooth crossover of the electron orbits shown in this experiment, 100% controlled by the applied waves.
No 'quantization'.
Kids math
Where is the problem?

It is a beautiful experiment that (hopefully) once and for all does away with 'you cannot ...' what QM is based on.
waves, De Broglie, I like his viewpoint.

In a bigger view, it holds all over the universe,
we know that electron 'jump' is controlled by the sum of all waves generated by moving charges all over the universe.
Totally classical.

Its late more tomorrow,.
Click to expand...

OK, new day
You might then ask: Why the 'dip'

This is simple,
here we go with the ball on a wire example again.
Now you have a ball with 2 wires, a short - and a long wire connected to a pole you hold.
Swing it around your head, outside, start slowly,
the ball will move in a circle, but not a perfect circle, it will also move up and down and have other aberrations caused by the wind.

3 dimensional if you will.
Swing it faster, then there is a point where it will almost make a perfect circle, 2 dimensional.
then increase power, the short wire breaks, and the ball will make a strong 3D movement and you have to re-adjust your swinging rhythm.
as now the pendulum's resonance is lower.

The 'wind' is the sum of the waves from all moving charges in the universe at your location.
You can now see that just before the transition to the next higher electron orbit (the short wire breaks) the orbit is
very much 2 dimensional, the microwave detectors see the dip,
alignment of circle to xyz detectors matters, but still there is a 'noise' dip.

Its simple.

Tim, the electron is ALWAYS affected by waves coming from all moving charges in the known universe,
that is how radio works.
just using locally generated microwaves makes measurement easier.

Simple.
 
"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message news:qd6ioh$erv$1@dont-email.me...

On a sunny day (Tue, 4 Jun 2019 20:32:18 +0100) it happened "Kevin Aylward"
kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote in
cf6dnSzpm97ZWmvBnZ2dnUU78dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>:
Click to expand...

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message news:qd3otn$l74$1@dont-email.me...

QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of SchrĂśdinger's cat (and finally
save
it)

Copenhagen is dead.

Very unlikely, in the technical sense. One has to know what the
"Copenhagen"
interpretation actually is.

Indeed.
Click to expand...

I had a look at the paper and, as yet, makes little sense to me.

It is very simple to me.
..electron orbits around an atom.
some energy is added
electron jumps to next higher orbit.

Electron is all the time locked to 3 microwave signals.
JUST before it jumps to the next orbit the microwave detectors see an
energy 'dip'.
This signals that a 'quantum' (and that is where the word originates, in
the interaction of the medium with the electron)
jump is about to happen.
Click to expand...

Still not clear on the points made here at all.

The "jump" in an electron going from from state to another is not the same
"quantum jump" referred to in the Schrodinger cat problem. The electron
"jump" described here is simply that the energy states are quantised. That
is not what is meant by the "quantum jump". The "collapse of the wave
function/quantum jump" cat problem is entirely a different issue. The terms
are often confused.

The standard cat problem is that for example:

|psi> = |up> + |dn>

describes the probabilistic state function. Each term represents the
*probability* that |psi> will be measured as either as an exact "up" or
"dn", and not both at once.

The "quantum jump" issue is, what makes the wave function collapse to one
single value? Why is only one value ever measured? Its the "jump" of the
*wave function* from *probability* to *actual*, not that there are only
discrete values allowed for observables.

100% predictable.
Also when they notice this, they can change the energy fed into the system
by the microwaves so
the 'quantum' jump does not happen.
Super simple.
Totally classical.

Just a few days earlier I explained here to look at it (the electron)
as a ball connected to a pole in the ocean.
I stated that EVERYTHING that moves in that ocean causes waves, and the sum
of all those waves
at the point where the ball is, determines if it will break the wire and is
knocked lose.
100% deterministic classical mechanics.
Click to expand...

Sure. Well known. Electrons and mass interact with all electrons and masses
everywhere in the universe as the radius of the force fields are infinite.

However, an issue is, why are there correlations between objects apparently
faster than the speed of light, such that such interactions shouldn't occur.

Now ball -> electron, charge, microwaves control ball.

There is a smooth crossover of the electron orbits shown in this
experiment, 100% controlled by the applied waves.
No 'quantization'.
Click to expand...

This makes no sense. The energy of the electrons will only be measured to
have specific, quantum values. Any experiment that refutes this, would
falsify QM completely, and would be such big news, it would be all over the
news. Its isn't.

I will have to look in more detail to understand the point of the paper.

-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html
 
On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 2:29:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of SchrĂśdinger's cat (and finally save it)

Copenhagen is dead.
Click to expand...

Jan, there was this piece on the same experiment. I thought he did a
better job of describing what was done.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/quantum-leaps-long-assumed-to-be-instantaneous-take-time-20190605/

GH
 
On a sunny day (Wed, 5 Jun 2019 12:39:04 -0700 (PDT)) it happened George
Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote in
<2227f26b-430d-41e2-9069-d25c718e1760@googlegroups.com>:

On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 2:29:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
QM defeated, the cat's movement predicted and controlled
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190603124621.htm
Physicists can predict the jumps of Schr=C3=B6dinger's cat (and finally
save it)

Copenhagen is dead.

Jan, there was this piece on the same experiment. I thought he did a
better job of describing what was done.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/quantum-leaps-long-assumed-to-be-instantaneous-take-time-20190605/

GH
Click to expand...

Interesting article.
Thank you.

Copenhagen is dead
:)
 
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