Q601 @ Q602 in Sony sets

B

Bill

Guest
I am surprised nobody followed up on a very interesting post by David
in this forum. He said that there are TWO types of 2SC4834's used in
Sony sets. This could easily explain some of the call backs if one
uses the wrong type. This is for David, or whoever has an answer :
how do we know what type to use if all these transistors are marked
the same ? Thanks
 
They are not all marked the same.
Example 2sc4834MP
vs 2sc4834MNP etc.
It is imperative to make sure you have the exact part number, not some
generic on the bigger sets.

Sony also put out a complete troubleshooting guide JUST for authorized
servicers on this SMPS alone due to the complex nature of its failures and
requirements for it to be repaired PERFECTLY or the repair will not last.

David

Bill <elect21st@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8fb59540.0310231302.7c2397cf@posting.google.com...
I am surprised nobody followed up on a very interesting post by David
in this forum. He said that there are TWO types of 2SC4834's used in
Sony sets. This could easily explain some of the call backs if one
uses the wrong type. This is for David, or whoever has an answer :
how do we know what type to use if all these transistors are marked
the same ? Thanks
Click to expand...
 
There should be some type of marking on it such as an "A" or something after
the part number unless Sony is having them hand picked. The 2S numbers are
JANTX registered, and a semiconductor manufacturer must meet those specs to use
the part number, this does not, however, prevent them from exceeding the specs
and not mentioning it.

As long as the reason for the failure is clear, we have good luck with the ones
from B&D. I suspect Sony might have had a custom batch made, just for them.

JURB
 
At one time Sony was claiming that the differences were that they were
carefully matched for use in pairs. They have more recently not been
willing to make any statements about the matching or quality control on
these, when questioned about it. The last set I ordered from Sony were the
part numbers with the MNP suffix. They came in and were externally
identical to the 2SC4834M that I buy from Tritronics and had no NP suffix
except on my invoice for more than 5 times the cost of the "generic"
Shindengen parts. All ten of that batch from Tritronics were better matched
than the pair from Sony. so much for their quality control.

On some of these power supplies the matching of the two transistors can
affect how hot they run and, therefore, their reliability. As long as the
performance is verified by checking the duty cycle and verifying that it is
within a few percent of 50%, there should be no problem with using generic
2SC4834M from a reliable supplier like Tritronics or B&D. I use them all
the time and never have a failure due to the generic parts. You do have to
be thorough in repairing these supplies, especially in those damaged by
external surges. Finding any bad capsor VDRs in these circuits is
essential.

Probably nobody followed up because most people don't really understand
these transistors. This is made worse by the lack of good information from
Sony, which propgates the myth that you have to buy the parts from them to
fix these sets properly. It takes time to do the research and testing to
find the real story. Most people just fall into one category or the other ,
those who accept that you have to use "OEM" parts or those who just blindly
use generics. I put OEM in quotes because it is a really poor term to use.
The OEM for these transistors is not Sony, it is Shindengen. Sony could be
more appropriately called the original "supplier".

Leonard Caillouet

"Bill" <elect21st@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8fb59540.0310231302.7c2397cf@posting.google.com...
I am surprised nobody followed up on a very interesting post by David
in this forum. He said that there are TWO types of 2SC4834's used in
Sony sets. This could easily explain some of the call backs if one
uses the wrong type. This is for David, or whoever has an answer :
how do we know what type to use if all these transistors are marked
the same ? Thanks
Click to expand...
 
Leonard is correct in that Sony has long made claims that parts obtained
from Sony are somehow better than parts obtained elsewhere.

Regarding the 2SC4834, however, there *is* a difference in the M, N, and P
versions. Our suppliers in Japan strongly recommended that we purchase only
the "P" version, and this was confirmed in conversations with technicians at
local repair shops, who reported a high failure rate in the "M" and "N"
versions.

We have sold several hundred 2SC4834-P in the last three months without a
single piece having been returned due to failure.

And BTW Leonard, if you're buying these from Tritronics you're paying *way*
too much. A check of their web site shows that they sell the "M" and "P"
versions for $3.89. Our price for the "P" version is $1.89. (Please excuse
the shameless plug :)

Regards,

Glen Goodwin
ACME Enterprises of Orlando
http://www.acme-sales.net

"Leonard G. Caillouet" <lcaillo_ns_@devoynet.com> wrote in message
news:Yhemb.44518$W77.32422@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
At one time Sony was claiming that the differences were that they were
carefully matched for use in pairs. They have more recently not been
willing to make any statements about the matching or quality control on
these, when questioned about it. The last set I ordered from Sony were
the
part numbers with the MNP suffix. They came in and were externally
identical to the 2SC4834M that I buy from Tritronics and had no NP suffix
except on my invoice for more than 5 times the cost of the "generic"
Shindengen parts. All ten of that batch from Tritronics were better
matched
than the pair from Sony. so much for their quality control.

On some of these power supplies the matching of the two transistors can
affect how hot they run and, therefore, their reliability. As long as the
performance is verified by checking the duty cycle and verifying that it
is
within a few percent of 50%, there should be no problem with using generic
2SC4834M from a reliable supplier like Tritronics or B&D. I use them all
the time and never have a failure due to the generic parts. You do have
to
be thorough in repairing these supplies, especially in those damaged by
external surges. Finding any bad capsor VDRs in these circuits is
essential.

Probably nobody followed up because most people don't really understand
these transistors. This is made worse by the lack of good information
from
Sony, which propgates the myth that you have to buy the parts from them to
fix these sets properly. It takes time to do the research and testing to
find the real story. Most people just fall into one category or the other
,
those who accept that you have to use "OEM" parts or those who just
blindly
use generics. I put OEM in quotes because it is a really poor term to
use.
The OEM for these transistors is not Sony, it is Shindengen. Sony could
be
more appropriately called the original "supplier".

Leonard Caillouet

"Bill" <elect21st@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8fb59540.0310231302.7c2397cf@posting.google.com...
I am surprised nobody followed up on a very interesting post by David
in this forum. He said that there are TWO types of 2SC4834's used in
Sony sets. This could easily explain some of the call backs if one
uses the wrong type. This is for David, or whoever has an answer :
how do we know what type to use if all these transistors are marked
the same ? Thanks
Click to expand...
 
it is also important to make sure you get genuine shindengen parts and not
some crooks god knows what remarks.lots of counterfiet parts out there.
"Glen G." <novirusforme@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:D7-dnaDYhZuesQGiRVn-vQ@gbronline.com...
Leonard is correct in that Sony has long made claims that parts obtained
from Sony are somehow better than parts obtained elsewhere.

Regarding the 2SC4834, however, there *is* a difference in the M, N, and P
versions. Our suppliers in Japan strongly recommended that we purchase
only
the "P" version, and this was confirmed in conversations with technicians
at
local repair shops, who reported a high failure rate in the "M" and "N"
versions.

We have sold several hundred 2SC4834-P in the last three months without a
single piece having been returned due to failure.

And BTW Leonard, if you're buying these from Tritronics you're paying
*way*
too much. A check of their web site shows that they sell the "M" and "P"
versions for $3.89. Our price for the "P" version is $1.89. (Please
excuse
the shameless plug :)

Regards,

Glen Goodwin
ACME Enterprises of Orlando
http://www.acme-sales.net

"Leonard G. Caillouet" <lcaillo_ns_@devoynet.com> wrote in message
news:Yhemb.44518$W77.32422@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
At one time Sony was claiming that the differences were that they were
carefully matched for use in pairs. They have more recently not been
willing to make any statements about the matching or quality control on
these, when questioned about it. The last set I ordered from Sony were
the
part numbers with the MNP suffix. They came in and were externally
identical to the 2SC4834M that I buy from Tritronics and had no NP
suffix
except on my invoice for more than 5 times the cost of the "generic"
Shindengen parts. All ten of that batch from Tritronics were better
matched
than the pair from Sony. so much for their quality control.

On some of these power supplies the matching of the two transistors can
affect how hot they run and, therefore, their reliability. As long as
the
performance is verified by checking the duty cycle and verifying that it
is
within a few percent of 50%, there should be no problem with using
generic
2SC4834M from a reliable supplier like Tritronics or B&D. I use them
all
the time and never have a failure due to the generic parts. You do have
to
be thorough in repairing these supplies, especially in those damaged by
external surges. Finding any bad capsor VDRs in these circuits is
essential.

Probably nobody followed up because most people don't really understand
these transistors. This is made worse by the lack of good information
from
Sony, which propgates the myth that you have to buy the parts from them
to
fix these sets properly. It takes time to do the research and testing
to
find the real story. Most people just fall into one category or the
other
,
those who accept that you have to use "OEM" parts or those who just
blindly
use generics. I put OEM in quotes because it is a really poor term to
use.
The OEM for these transistors is not Sony, it is Shindengen. Sony could
be
more appropriately called the original "supplier".

Leonard Caillouet

"Bill" <elect21st@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8fb59540.0310231302.7c2397cf@posting.google.com...
I am surprised nobody followed up on a very interesting post by David
in this forum. He said that there are TWO types of 2SC4834's used in
Sony sets. This could easily explain some of the call backs if one
uses the wrong type. This is for David, or whoever has an answer :
how do we know what type to use if all these transistors are marked
the same ? Thanks
Click to expand...
 
Actually, if you order the TT-2SC4834 for $1.89 ($1.59 in qty 10) from
Tritronics you get the M version. In fact, as I said before, if you order
the Sony parts you get the M version even if you order the part number for
the P. I have used the 2SC4834M from Tritronics for dozens of repairs and
the only failure that I have had is when I missed an intermittent cap. I
buy at least 10 at a time to get better matching and rarely have pairs that
need to be changed after testing in circuit. As I have said many times, the
key to effectively servicing these supplies is not the part supplier as much
as being thorough and understanding how they are supposed to work. I also
does not require wholesale parts changing as some suggest. It is more
important to make sure that the parts are working correctly than that they
are all new and from Sony.

I don't have a problem with the shameless plug, but if you could provide
more specific information about the P version relative to the others it
would appear more credible and less self serving. We might all learn
something useful instead of more hearsay, which is most of what gets posted
on the matter. Did it not occur to you to ask your supplier to provide some
documentation on the parts you are buying? Of course, as Japanese
semiconductor numbering goes you would expect the N and P versions to be
superior to the M, but absent some specific information, given the
experience with Sony's supplying the M version, and knowing that the M
version works reliably, I hesitate to change. I might give your company a
try, however, if I see some references from shops that deal with you and
your inventory is up to par. The thing that makes me keep going back to
Tritronics is the fact that I can combine orders and save freight. Instead
of ordering direct from say, Panasonic and Sony and Zenith, I can order in
one place and usually get the product faster. If you can offer more
complete service I'll certainly consider you, but I'd like to hear about you
from some customers.

Leonard Caillouet

"Glen G." <novirusforme@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:D7-dnaDYhZuesQGiRVn-vQ@gbronline.com...
Leonard is correct in that Sony has long made claims that parts obtained
from Sony are somehow better than parts obtained elsewhere.

Regarding the 2SC4834, however, there *is* a difference in the M, N, and P
versions. Our suppliers in Japan strongly recommended that we purchase
only
the "P" version, and this was confirmed in conversations with technicians
at
local repair shops, who reported a high failure rate in the "M" and "N"
versions.

We have sold several hundred 2SC4834-P in the last three months without a
single piece having been returned due to failure.

And BTW Leonard, if you're buying these from Tritronics you're paying
*way*
too much. A check of their web site shows that they sell the "M" and "P"
versions for $3.89. Our price for the "P" version is $1.89. (Please
excuse
the shameless plug :)

Regards,

Glen Goodwin
ACME Enterprises of Orlando
http://www.acme-sales.net

"Leonard G. Caillouet" <lcaillo_ns_@devoynet.com> wrote in message
news:Yhemb.44518$W77.32422@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
At one time Sony was claiming that the differences were that they were
carefully matched for use in pairs. They have more recently not been
willing to make any statements about the matching or quality control on
these, when questioned about it. The last set I ordered from Sony were
the
part numbers with the MNP suffix. They came in and were externally
identical to the 2SC4834M that I buy from Tritronics and had no NP
suffix
except on my invoice for more than 5 times the cost of the "generic"
Shindengen parts. All ten of that batch from Tritronics were better
matched
than the pair from Sony. so much for their quality control.

On some of these power supplies the matching of the two transistors can
affect how hot they run and, therefore, their reliability. As long as
the
performance is verified by checking the duty cycle and verifying that it
is
within a few percent of 50%, there should be no problem with using
generic
2SC4834M from a reliable supplier like Tritronics or B&D. I use them
all
the time and never have a failure due to the generic parts. You do have
to
be thorough in repairing these supplies, especially in those damaged by
external surges. Finding any bad capsor VDRs in these circuits is
essential.

Probably nobody followed up because most people don't really understand
these transistors. This is made worse by the lack of good information
from
Sony, which propgates the myth that you have to buy the parts from them
to
fix these sets properly. It takes time to do the research and testing
to
find the real story. Most people just fall into one category or the
other
,
those who accept that you have to use "OEM" parts or those who just
blindly
use generics. I put OEM in quotes because it is a really poor term to
use.
The OEM for these transistors is not Sony, it is Shindengen. Sony could
be
more appropriately called the original "supplier".

Leonard Caillouet

"Bill" <elect21st@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8fb59540.0310231302.7c2397cf@posting.google.com...
I am surprised nobody followed up on a very interesting post by David
in this forum. He said that there are TWO types of 2SC4834's used in
Sony sets. This could easily explain some of the call backs if one
uses the wrong type. This is for David, or whoever has an answer :
how do we know what type to use if all these transistors are marked
the same ? Thanks
Click to expand...
 
A note from the maker.

Thank you for your requirement on 2SC4834 series from Shindengen.
Please note that :
2SC4834N/P-4000 / - 4012
2SC4834 is part number
N/P is HFE rank of the product; that is N rank product
Or P rank product
-4000 or - 4012 is shows that terminal shape
-4000 is straight terminal
-4012 is vent terminal
Our stock:
2SC4834N-4000 / 2,446 pcs
2SC4834P-4000 / 1,044 pcs
Our bottom unit price for your order
www.audiolabga.com


"kc8adu" <nospam@spam.sucks> wrote in message
news:vpobt1jf8pe6a5@corp.supernews.com...
it is also important to make sure you get genuine shindengen parts and not
some crooks god knows what remarks.lots of counterfiet parts out there.
"Glen G." <novirusforme@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:D7-dnaDYhZuesQGiRVn-vQ@gbronline.com...
Leonard is correct in that Sony has long made claims that parts obtained
from Sony are somehow better than parts obtained elsewhere.

Regarding the 2SC4834, however, there *is* a difference in the M, N, and
P
versions. Our suppliers in Japan strongly recommended that we purchase
only
the "P" version, and this was confirmed in conversations with
technicians
at
local repair shops, who reported a high failure rate in the "M" and "N"
versions.

We have sold several hundred 2SC4834-P in the last three months without
a
single piece having been returned due to failure.

And BTW Leonard, if you're buying these from Tritronics you're paying
*way*
too much. A check of their web site shows that they sell the "M" and
"P"
versions for $3.89. Our price for the "P" version is $1.89. (Please
excuse
the shameless plug :)

Regards,

Glen Goodwin
ACME Enterprises of Orlando
http://www.acme-sales.net

"Leonard G. Caillouet" <lcaillo_ns_@devoynet.com> wrote in message
news:Yhemb.44518$W77.32422@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
At one time Sony was claiming that the differences were that they were
carefully matched for use in pairs. They have more recently not been
willing to make any statements about the matching or quality control
on
these, when questioned about it. The last set I ordered from Sony
were
the
part numbers with the MNP suffix. They came in and were externally
identical to the 2SC4834M that I buy from Tritronics and had no NP
suffix
except on my invoice for more than 5 times the cost of the "generic"
Shindengen parts. All ten of that batch from Tritronics were better
matched
than the pair from Sony. so much for their quality control.

On some of these power supplies the matching of the two transistors
can
affect how hot they run and, therefore, their reliability. As long as
the
performance is verified by checking the duty cycle and verifying that
it
is
within a few percent of 50%, there should be no problem with using
generic
2SC4834M from a reliable supplier like Tritronics or B&D. I use them
all
the time and never have a failure due to the generic parts. You do
have
to
be thorough in repairing these supplies, especially in those damaged
by
external surges. Finding any bad capsor VDRs in these circuits is
essential.

Probably nobody followed up because most people don't really
understand
these transistors. This is made worse by the lack of good information
from
Sony, which propgates the myth that you have to buy the parts from
them
to
fix these sets properly. It takes time to do the research and testing
to
find the real story. Most people just fall into one category or the
other
,
those who accept that you have to use "OEM" parts or those who just
blindly
use generics. I put OEM in quotes because it is a really poor term to
use.
The OEM for these transistors is not Sony, it is Shindengen. Sony
could
be
more appropriately called the original "supplier".

Leonard Caillouet

"Bill" <elect21st@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8fb59540.0310231302.7c2397cf@posting.google.com...
I am surprised nobody followed up on a very interesting post by
David
in this forum. He said that there are TWO types of 2SC4834's used in
Sony sets. This could easily explain some of the call backs if one
uses the wrong type. This is for David, or whoever has an answer :
how do we know what type to use if all these transistors are marked
the same ? Thanks
Click to expand...
 
Hello again --

Yes, we did get information from our supplier concerning the details of the
differences between the various versions of the Shindengen 2SC4834:

Here's what they said:

The suffix M or P is HFE rank of 2SC4834.
The following list shows you HFE range:

M => 10 - 15
N => 12 - 18
P => 16 - 22
R => 20 - 27

Later --

Glen Goodwin
ACME Enterprises of Orlando
http://www.acme-sales.net
1-800-575-9833

"Leonard Caillouet" <lcailloNOSPAM@devoynet.com> wrote in message
news:dA%mb.5$Re.1@lakeread06...
I don't have a problem with the shameless plug, but if you could provide
more specific information about the P version relative to the others it
would appear more credible and less self serving. We might all learn
something useful instead of more hearsay, which is most of what gets
posted
on the matter. Did it not occur to you to ask your supplier to provide
some
documentation on the parts you are buying?
Click to expand...
 
Thank you Glen.

I thought this was the case but was not sure. I also just confirmed this
with Bud at B&D. He also said that when Sony lists a MNP suffix it means
that the rank is not critical. That makes sense, because in this circuit
the current gain should not matter significantly, only that the transistors
match. In fact, higher current gain may less desirable in this circuit.
Again, every one that I have received from Sony has been M rank. Anyone
ever get anything different from Sony?

Leonard Caillouet

"Glen G." <novirusforme@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:MLSdnRVYVJMBFgOiRVn-tg@gbronline.com...
Hello again --

Yes, we did get information from our supplier concerning the details of
the
differences between the various versions of the Shindengen 2SC4834:

Here's what they said:

The suffix M or P is HFE rank of 2SC4834.
The following list shows you HFE range:

M => 10 - 15
N => 12 - 18
P => 16 - 22
R => 20 - 27

Later --

Glen Goodwin
ACME Enterprises of Orlando
http://www.acme-sales.net
1-800-575-9833

"Leonard Caillouet" <lcailloNOSPAM@devoynet.com> wrote in message
news:dA%mb.5$Re.1@lakeread06...
I don't have a problem with the shameless plug, but if you could provide
more specific information about the P version relative to the others it
would appear more credible and less self serving. We might all learn
something useful instead of more hearsay, which is most of what gets
posted
on the matter. Did it not occur to you to ask your supplier to provide
some
documentation on the parts you are buying?
Click to expand...
 
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