Protel DXP2004

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F1AUAZ

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What do you think of: Protel DXP2004 = very buggy software = very strange
behaviour = shit ?
 
so who is the biggest fool... the one who sells the software.. or the one
who brought it ?

"F1AUAZ" <f1auaz@kekeboubouille.cbi> wrote in message
news:42627c7b$0$308$a3f2974a@nnrp1.numericable.fr...
What do you think of: Protel DXP2004 = very buggy software = very strange
behaviour = shit ?
 
And that is the secret of EDA. Its a small market so if you make it too
much like other companies... then users can swap :)

I have been working with Protel for many years.. 15 or more... and each time
they do a major release it has more bugs than windows 2.
That being said, service packs come out thick and fast.. some add new
features, others fix 'issues' as there are no bugs anymore :)
So if you find it buggy.. make sure you install the current service pack.
Its very important.


Simon


"GMM50" <george.martin@att.net> wrote in message
news:1113836106.234065.169650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Simon Peacock wrote:
so who is the biggest fool... the one who sells the software.. or the
one
who brought it ?

"F1AUAZ" <f1auaz@kekeboubouille.cbi> wrote in message
news:42627c7b$0$308$a3f2974a@nnrp1.numericable.fr...
What do you think of: Protel DXP2004 = very buggy software = very
strange
behaviour = shit ?



The interface is different that I expected (I'm not a PCB designer) and
took a bit of getting used to.

But it works just fine. I've places and routes a 4 layer 10x14" with
1300 placements and board is up and running.

I also have done 2 small 3x5 " 2 sided boards and both worked first
pass.

My 2 cents
george
 
Simon,
C'mon guy, you are not being completely honest. Current
DXP2004 SP2 has a reasonable number of bugs or issues. Anybody
only has to monitor the DXP support listserver for a couple of
days to see that.
The bright point is that Altium personnel are participating
on the listserver and they seem to be seriously addressing these
bugs and issues when compared to the old days. There was a time
when you would wonder if they were even trying to support the
product or just tell you that there weren't any bugs, it was all
your own install and personal issues.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander

"Simon Peacock" <nowhere@to.be.found> wrote in message
news:4264bb72@news2.actrix.gen.nz...
And that is the secret of EDA. Its a small market so if you
make it too
much like other companies... then users can swap :)

I have been working with Protel for many years.. 15 or more...
and each time
they do a major release it has more bugs than windows 2.
That being said, service packs come out thick and fast.. some
add new
features, others fix 'issues' as there are no bugs anymore :)
So if you find it buggy.. make sure you install the current
service pack.
Its very important.


Simon
 
I do follow the groups.. but I am also on the DXP beta list.. There is about
a service pack a month there. Our aim is to track down and identify bugs so
you don't have too. To really see support that's where you need to be.. but
the techs in the group are rather busy at the moment with preparing for SP3
and after that probably for SP4
There is also a hot fix list Protel is setting up.. if you have a serious
issue that can be reproduced, you can get a hot fix for it there.

And yes DXP is buggy.. but less so then earlier releases of DXP. Some of
the bugs are even documentation issues... on that side they have fallen well
short of 2.8 & 98. But for all its faults.. it is quite usable. Except
Situs buts that's a different story. I am also suspect of Nextar.. its too
early to consider them serious rivals for Mentor... but one day.. maybe ..
at least you don't fork out 25% more each year for 'bug fixes' its about
30k a year at my current job... and its been a year since Modelsim and HDL
designer worked together.. and there's still no official fix... so I'll take
free maybe fixes against expensive non-fixes anyday.

The support list server is one of the best features.. there are some very
knowledgeable people on the list who don't work for Altium.


"Brad Velander" <SpamThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:0jl9e.1075303$Xk.377496@pd7tw3no...
Simon,
C'mon guy, you are not being completely honest. Current
DXP2004 SP2 has a reasonable number of bugs or issues. Anybody
only has to monitor the DXP support listserver for a couple of
days to see that.
The bright point is that Altium personnel are participating
on the listserver and they seem to be seriously addressing these
bugs and issues when compared to the old days. There was a time
when you would wonder if they were even trying to support the
product or just tell you that there weren't any bugs, it was all
your own install and personal issues.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander

"Simon Peacock" <nowhere@to.be.found> wrote in message
news:4264bb72@news2.actrix.gen.nz...
And that is the secret of EDA. Its a small market so if you
make it too
much like other companies... then users can swap :)

I have been working with Protel for many years.. 15 or more...
and each time
they do a major release it has more bugs than windows 2.
That being said, service packs come out thick and fast.. some
add new
features, others fix 'issues' as there are no bugs anymore :)
So if you find it buggy.. make sure you install the current
service pack.
Its very important.


Simon
 
Op Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:30:43 +1200 schreef Simon Peacock:

And that is the secret of EDA. Its a small market so if you make it too
much like other companies... then users can swap :)

I have been working with Protel for many years.. 15 or more... and each time
they do a major release it has more bugs than windows 2.
That being said, service packs come out thick and fast.. some add new
features, others fix 'issues' as there are no bugs anymore :)
So if you find it buggy.. make sure you install the current service pack.
Its very important.


Simon
What is you opinion on Protel 99SE SP6? Some say that it was quite stable
and most bugs fixed on the release of SP6. What was/is your experience
in this regard?

Franklin
 
I would have to say its still the preferred CAD package at work. Its only
because I'm on the beta that I use DXP at home.

Protel has an annoying habit of releasing the code when its near enough...
Any company used to dealing with them probably buys the upgrade and sticks
it on the shelf for several service packs. you get the upgrade fairly cheap
that way. I had Protel 99 that way.. didn't even use it.. and only started
with 99SE at SP5. I don't see my current company upgrading to DXP until
there are a few more service packs. and the one DXP license the we have was
brought because it came with 99SE :)

Without SP6 I wouldn't touch 99SE ... but its rock solid (mostly) I've never
used the auto-router and only done basic simulation. I have run a trace
simulation on the PCB and then checked the calculated capacitance against
the RF test gear at work and the numbers came out close enough.

99SE is really a CAD package.. its not a text editor, its not a spread
sheet, auto-routing and simulation aren't its strong points and auto-place
is a non-starter. I've also heard bad things about the libraries but all
libraries I've ever used are hand built and every component is checked by
two people.. so I've never used any of Protels libraries... Oh.. and hidden
pins in a schematic.. never used them.. they are more of a hindrance than a
solution.
SCH and PCB will work until the cows come home.. with any kind on board...
power supplies, 22 Gig RF you name it.. its possible sometimes you are
drawing with fills and not traces... but it works a treat.

There are a few bugs in the ERC from 99SE. Nothing serious, It wasn't until
I had DXP and ran a clean 99SE schematic to find a dozen errors with DXP
that I checked the settings.. same settings in both yielded different number
of errors. And DXP got it right! these aren't major errors.. just inputs
connected to outputs etc.
There are also some things in 99SE that will always make it crash.. I can't
remember exactly.. no point in asking for a fix any more... just avoid it if
it happens :)

If you can find it, the developers kit allows you to write Delphi DLL's...
I've one written to generate a BoM and have never touched the default BoM in
the 8 years since.

I have also always used the DDB for better or worse I have found that Protel
defaults cause the least grief..

It is also very graphics card sensitive... ATI = instant death. Something
to do with drivers (probably). Matrox Millennium or G400 were the card of
choice. 1/2 gig of ram and the best processor you can afford are really
minimum.

The 3D is a toy but there are third party interfaces to solidworks.

DXP seems to want 1 gig RAM and rummers from Altium are that it will run
40 - 80% faster on a 64bit Athlon. But it is 32 bit code and can't use a
dual processor (not that a dual processor wouldn't be useful)

One of the best part of Protel 99SE is that the older licenses are
transferable. DXP or the 99SE licenses can't be sold unless the whole
company is sold.

so that's the one page summery. I evaluated all CAD tools under $20,000
back in '97 ish and I thought it was the best then. My opinion hasn't
changed much... but I haven't been playing with the others lately.


Simon



"Franklin" <reply@newsgroup.plz> wrote in message
news:erqy6pqos5h7.akft4w10rrr1.dlg@40tude.net...
Op Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:30:43 +1200 schreef Simon Peacock:

And that is the secret of EDA. Its a small market so if you make it too
much like other companies... then users can swap :)

I have been working with Protel for many years.. 15 or more... and each
time
they do a major release it has more bugs than windows 2.
That being said, service packs come out thick and fast.. some add new
features, others fix 'issues' as there are no bugs anymore :)
So if you find it buggy.. make sure you install the current service
pack.
Its very important.


Simon

What is you opinion on Protel 99SE SP6? Some say that it was quite stable
and most bugs fixed on the release of SP6. What was/is your experience
in this regard?

Franklin
 
Op Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:24:49 +1200 schreef Simon Peacock:

I would have to say its still the preferred CAD package at work. Its only
because I'm on the beta that I use DXP at home.

Protel has an annoying habit of releasing the code when its near enough...
Any company used to dealing with them probably buys the upgrade and sticks
it on the shelf for several service packs. you get the upgrade fairly cheap
that way. I had Protel 99 that way.. didn't even use it.. and only started
with 99SE at SP5. I don't see my current company upgrading to DXP until
there are a few more service packs. and the one DXP license the we have was
brought because it came with 99SE :)

Without SP6 I wouldn't touch 99SE ... but its rock solid (mostly) I've never
used the auto-router and only done basic simulation. I have run a trace
simulation on the PCB and then checked the calculated capacitance against
the RF test gear at work and the numbers came out close enough.

99SE is really a CAD package.. its not a text editor, its not a spread
sheet, auto-routing and simulation aren't its strong points and auto-place
is a non-starter. I've also heard bad things about the libraries but all
libraries I've ever used are hand built and every component is checked by
two people.. so I've never used any of Protels libraries... Oh.. and hidden
pins in a schematic.. never used them.. they are more of a hindrance than a
solution.
SCH and PCB will work until the cows come home.. with any kind on board...
power supplies, 22 Gig RF you name it.. its possible sometimes you are
drawing with fills and not traces... but it works a treat.

There are a few bugs in the ERC from 99SE. Nothing serious, It wasn't until
I had DXP and ran a clean 99SE schematic to find a dozen errors with DXP
that I checked the settings.. same settings in both yielded different number
of errors. And DXP got it right! these aren't major errors.. just inputs
connected to outputs etc.
There are also some things in 99SE that will always make it crash.. I can't
remember exactly.. no point in asking for a fix any more... just avoid it if
it happens :)

If you can find it, the developers kit allows you to write Delphi DLL's...
I've one written to generate a BoM and have never touched the default BoM in
the 8 years since.

I have also always used the DDB for better or worse I have found that Protel
defaults cause the least grief..

It is also very graphics card sensitive... ATI = instant death. Something
to do with drivers (probably). Matrox Millennium or G400 were the card of
choice. 1/2 gig of ram and the best processor you can afford are really
minimum.

The 3D is a toy but there are third party interfaces to solidworks.

DXP seems to want 1 gig RAM and rummers from Altium are that it will run
40 - 80% faster on a 64bit Athlon. But it is 32 bit code and can't use a
dual processor (not that a dual processor wouldn't be useful)

One of the best part of Protel 99SE is that the older licenses are
transferable. DXP or the 99SE licenses can't be sold unless the whole
company is sold.

so that's the one page summery. I evaluated all CAD tools under $20,000
back in '97 ish and I thought it was the best then. My opinion hasn't
changed much... but I haven't been playing with the others lately.


Simon


Thanks for your comments/hints/tips/advice.

Regards,

Franklin
 
Franklin,
I concur with Simon's comments re P99SE SP6. Still running it
myself at work, maybe we will upgrade to DXP in a year or two.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander

"Illusion" <reply@here.plz> wrote in message
news:jnbmowx7x428.1ie66dpu3ikum.dlg@40tude.net...
Thanks for your comments/hints/tips/advice.

Regards,

Franklin
 
Well I would have to say I'm growing fond of DXP.. the search/replace is
bloated now... but theres talk about putting back the simple search engine
of 99SE... the new features and the smart pdf is way cool ... the split
plane handling is better, the pad stacks are better and version control is
exactly what's needed... so I won't be changing back to 99SE at home in a
hurry. Especially if I start StartLite Design back up again

Simon


"Brad Velander" <SpamThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:czF9e.1085296$Xk.263171@pd7tw3no...
Franklin,
I concur with Simon's comments re P99SE SP6. Still running it
myself at work, maybe we will upgrade to DXP in a year or two.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander

"Illusion" <reply@here.plz> wrote in message
news:jnbmowx7x428.1ie66dpu3ikum.dlg@40tude.net...

Thanks for your comments/hints/tips/advice.

Regards,

Franklin
 
"Brad Velander" <SpamThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:lU2ae.1103568$6l.837714@pd7tw2no...
Simon,
From the bit I have played with thus far, I am concerned
about all of these pop-up windows interfering with the actual
visible work area. Haven't gotten that far into it, I have only
converted and integrated our libraries so that I could start
playing, then the flood gates opened and I am swamped with real
work.
I've dragged all the pop up windows to the side of the screen where they
simply shrink into the edge when not used. I've noticed someone else going
for a 23" wide screen for Protel.. I can only guess why :)


What a chore the library conversion was, our libraries had
1300 errors or warnings to sort out. A lot of garbage issues from
past employees that weren't too concerned with integral libraries
and library management. But it was a good exercise to get me more
familiar with our library details and now I feel a little more
reassured about the integrity of the libraries I inherited last
year.
I have already warned my work that theres about a month of library work
going from 99SE to DXP. There is just so much more info in the current
libraries. The thought has been we will convert whats needed, and
create/convert new parts as required.


Padstacks? What padstacks? P99SE didn't have padstacks, at
least not what I think of as padstacks (PADs) and hate with a
passion. or do you just mean better control and features similar
to the P99SE pads.
Well 99SE had padstacks.. top, bottom and everything else. DXP has top,
bottom and individual internal layers.


Version control is nothing that interests us,
we have our own very well documented and controlled development
process and systems. Gotta be for avionics product approvals,
completely traceable. We have a development software management
system but it is not a version control product as far as I know
(maybe it is and we just don't use it in the same fashion as the
other popular vc packages). I don't think that it plays nicely
with any other programs.
We have standardised on VSS for FPGA .... mainly because it didn't directly
support CVS at first, and CVS for software at work but they are looking at
moving it all to CVS. Protel is just zipped, write-protected and archived
.... so very manual .. I prefer automated systems that are easily
reproducable ... We also have bug tracking.
 
Simon,
From the bit I have played with thus far, I am concerned
about all of these pop-up windows interfering with the actual
visible work area. Haven't gotten that far into it, I have only
converted and integrated our libraries so that I could start
playing, then the flood gates opened and I am swamped with real
work.
What a chore the library conversion was, our libraries had
1300 errors or warnings to sort out. A lot of garbage issues from
past employees that weren't too concerned with integral libraries
and library management. But it was a good exercise to get me more
familiar with our library details and now I feel a little more
reassured about the integrity of the libraries I inherited last
year.

Padstacks? What padstacks? P99SE didn't have padstacks, at
least not what I think of as padstacks (PADs) and hate with a
passion. or do you just mean better control and features similar
to the P99SE pads. Version control is nothing that interests us,
we have our own very well documented and controlled development
process and systems. Gotta be for avionics product approvals,
completely traceable. We have a development software management
system but it is not a version control product as far as I know
(maybe it is and we just don't use it in the same fashion as the
other popular vc packages). I don't think that it plays nicely
with any other programs.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander

"Simon Peacock" <nowhere@to.be.found> wrote in message
news:4267738c$2@news2.actrix.gen.nz...
Well I would have to say I'm growing fond of DXP.. the
search/replace is
bloated now... but theres talk about putting back the simple
search engine
of 99SE... the new features and the smart pdf is way cool ...
the split
plane handling is better, the pad stacks are better and version
control is
exactly what's needed... so I won't be changing back to 99SE at
home in a
hurry. Especially if I start StartLite Design back up again

Simon
 
Franklin wrote:

Op Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:30:43 +1200 schreef Simon Peacock:



And that is the secret of EDA. Its a small market so if you make it too
much like other companies... then users can swap :)

I have been working with Protel for many years.. 15 or more... and each time
they do a major release it has more bugs than windows 2.
That being said, service packs come out thick and fast.. some add new
features, others fix 'issues' as there are no bugs anymore :)
So if you find it buggy.. make sure you install the current service pack.
Its very important.


Simon



What is you opinion on Protel 99SE SP6? Some say that it was quite stable
and most bugs fixed on the release of SP6. What was/is your experience
in this regard?


I have 2 seats of 99SE. One at "work", the other at "home". It is
quite reliable.
There are a few quirks in some of the viewing stuff, the PLD stuff is
very rough,
but the schematic--PCB part is rock solid. There are a couple of known
ways to
slip defects past the design rule checks (like vias right between split
power planes)
but you just about have to try to do something that will mess it up.
Following just
a couple of procedures will get perfect boards every time. The parts
libraries
are not real good or consistent, and everybody recommends you build your own
parts and footprint libraries to make sure the hole sizes are what you
want, etc.

I've been using 99SE pretty much since it came out, and it is really
quite good. Also,
you don't find that you've fogotten how to use it after just a weekend
off! Some other
packages are so darn complex and non-intuitive that you can't remember
how to use
it after just a couple of days.

Jon
 
Simon Peacock wrote:
so who is the biggest fool... the one who sells the software.. or the
one
who brought it ?

"F1AUAZ" <f1auaz@kekeboubouille.cbi> wrote in message
news:42627c7b$0$308$a3f2974a@nnrp1.numericable.fr...
What do you think of: Protel DXP2004 = very buggy software = very
strange
behaviour = shit ?
The interface is different that I expected (I'm not a PCB designer) and
took a bit of getting used to.

But it works just fine. I've places and routes a 4 layer 10x14" with
1300 placements and board is up and running.

I also have done 2 small 3x5 " 2 sided boards and both worked first
pass.

My 2 cents
george
 

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