Protel DXP Autorouter is it really 100% unuseable?

[Antti Lukats]

Hi

I am getting really desperate - it seems that Protel DXP autorouter
starts with random failures from some complexity of the board.

It is constantly leaving some small artifacts in the routed design
(even the autorouter claims full route no contentions) when doing
DRC some small amount of violations are found like:

1) one via is placed to close to a pad, can be fixed manually very
easy
2) 2 adjacent smd pads (on the same net) do not have connection, can
be fixed manually very easy
3) some track goes over another, cant be fixed manually any more

as result - my opinion is that DXP autorouter is a 100% non useable
product.

but how is Altium able to sell it for 7995 EUR ?!

Antti Lukats
P.S. if anyone has succeeded with larger design and Protel DXP
autorouter
I would appreciate a short info notice

 

[Leon Heller]

Antti Lukats wrote:

Hi

I am getting really desperate - it seems that Protel DXP autorouter
starts with random failures from some complexity of the board.

It is constantly leaving some small artifacts in the routed design
(even the autorouter claims full route no contentions) when doing
DRC some small amount of violations are found like:

1) one via is placed to close to a pad, can be fixed manually very
easy
2) 2 adjacent smd pads (on the same net) do not have connection, can
be fixed manually very easy
3) some track goes over another, cant be fixed manually any more

as result - my opinion is that DXP autorouter is a 100% non useable
product.

but how is Altium able to sell it for 7995 EUR ?!

Antti Lukats
P.S. if anyone has succeeded with larger design and Protel DXP
autorouter
I would appreciate a short info notice

I use Pulsonix - when I have problems like this with their software I
typically get a new file in a day or two with the bugs corrected. I am
one of their beta testers but they do this for all their customers, and
provide upgrades very frequently rather than wait for a year or so.

Out of curiosity I subscribed to the Protel users mailing list - the
software seems to have numerous problems.

What does Altium say about the bugs?

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: aqzf13@dsl.pipex.com
My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system:
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html

 

[Bob Stephens]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 07:36:21 +0000, Leon Heller wrote:

Antti Lukats wrote:
Hi

I am getting really desperate - it seems that Protel DXP autorouter
starts with random failures from some complexity of the board.

It is constantly leaving some small artifacts in the routed design
(even the autorouter claims full route no contentions) when doing
DRC some small amount of violations are found like:

1) one via is placed to close to a pad, can be fixed manually very
easy
2) 2 adjacent smd pads (on the same net) do not have connection, can
be fixed manually very easy
3) some track goes over another, cant be fixed manually any more

as result - my opinion is that DXP autorouter is a 100% non useable
product.

but how is Altium able to sell it for 7995 EUR ?!

Antti Lukats
P.S. if anyone has succeeded with larger design and Protel DXP
autorouter
I would appreciate a short info notice

I use Pulsonix - when I have problems like this with their software I
typically get a new file in a day or two with the bugs corrected. I am
one of their beta testers but they do this for all their customers, and
provide upgrades very frequently rather than wait for a year or so.

Out of curiosity I subscribed to the Protel users mailing list - the
software seems to have numerous problems.

What does Altium say about the bugs?

Leon

"you're gonna love all the nifty new features in the next revision."

Altium is the worst at responding to bugs.

 

[Pascal Bloem]

"Antti Lukats" <antti@case2000.com> schreef in bericht
news:80a3aea5.0401182253.295f12d0@posting.google.com...

Hi

but how is Altium able to sell it for 7995 EUR ?!

Antti Lukats
P.S. if anyone has succeeded with larger design and Protel DXP
autorouter
I would appreciate a short info notice

Altiums has admitted that the autorouter is failing!
And they claim that Protel 2004 will address this and other issues.
Protel 2004 is scheduled to be release on 16 february of this year,
and wil be a free upgrade to Protel DXP (Licensed users only)
Despite all, there are some people that get "some" result from using
Protel's Autorouter (I'm not one of them !). Fine tuning the rules is
a must before you can expect any exceptable results!

Pascal

 

[Mike Rocket J. Squirrel E]

Pascal Bloem wrote:

"Antti Lukats" <antti@case2000.com> schreef in bericht
news:80a3aea5.0401182253.295f12d0@posting.google.com...

Hi


but how is Altium able to sell it for 7995 EUR ?!

Antti Lukats
P.S. if anyone has succeeded with larger design and Protel DXP
autorouter
I would appreciate a short info notice


Altiums has admitted that the autorouter is failing!
And they claim that Protel 2004 will address this and other issues.
Protel 2004 is scheduled to be release on 16 february of this year,
and wil be a free upgrade to Protel DXP (Licensed users only)
Despite all, there are some people that get "some" result from using
Protel's Autorouter (I'm not one of them !). Fine tuning the rules is
a must before you can expect any exceptable results!

I'm still using Protel's PCB 2.4, not having seen enough improvement in
the product that would help me with my boards (analog power) to make the
upgrades worth the $$$$.

Despite my early version's sometimes odd autorouter results, it does the
occasional small non-critical board fairly okay . . . though it
generally takes more time to clean up by hand after routing than the
actual routing takes.

I am fairly blown away that Protel/Altium is still shipping crappy
autorouters. I would have thought that the product would have improved
over the years instead of becoming useless, and I am /completely/ blown
away that they are still in business with a product that costs so much
yet has gotten worse. How much abuse will users take?

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer)

 

[Leon Heller]

Leon Heller wrote:

Antti Lukats wrote:

Hi

I am getting really desperate - it seems that Protel DXP autorouter
starts with random failures from some complexity of the board.

It is constantly leaving some small artifacts in the routed design
(even the autorouter claims full route no contentions) when doing
DRC some small amount of violations are found like:

1) one via is placed to close to a pad, can be fixed manually very
easy
2) 2 adjacent smd pads (on the same net) do not have connection, can
be fixed manually very easy
3) some track goes over another, cant be fixed manually any more

as result - my opinion is that DXP autorouter is a 100% non useable
product.

but how is Altium able to sell it for 7995 EUR ?!

Antti Lukats
P.S. if anyone has succeeded with larger design and Protel DXP
autorouter
I would appreciate a short info notice


I use Pulsonix - when I have problems like this with their software I
typically get a new file in a day or two with the bugs corrected. I am
one of their beta testers but they do this for all their customers, and
provide upgrades very frequently rather than wait for a year or so.

Out of curiosity I subscribed to the Protel users mailing list - the
software seems to have numerous problems.

There is s lot of discussion at present about the autorouter on the
above list. The general concensus seems to be that it *is* crap.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: aqzf13@dsl.pipex.com
My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system:
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html

 

[Illusion]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:00:04 GMT, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott
wrote:

Pascal Bloem wrote:

"Antti Lukats" <antti@case2000.com> schreef in bericht
news:80a3aea5.0401182253.295f12d0@posting.google.com...

Hi


but how is Altium able to sell it for 7995 EUR ?!

Antti Lukats
P.S. if anyone has succeeded with larger design and Protel DXP
autorouter
I would appreciate a short info notice


Altiums has admitted that the autorouter is failing!
And they claim that Protel 2004 will address this and other issues.
Protel 2004 is scheduled to be release on 16 february of this year,
and wil be a free upgrade to Protel DXP (Licensed users only)
Despite all, there are some people that get "some" result from using
Protel's Autorouter (I'm not one of them !). Fine tuning the rules is
a must before you can expect any exceptable results!

I'm still using Protel's PCB 2.4, not having seen enough improvement in
the product that would help me with my boards (analog power) to make the
upgrades worth the $$$$.

Despite my early version's sometimes odd autorouter results, it does the
occasional small non-critical board fairly okay . . . though it
generally takes more time to clean up by hand after routing than the
actual routing takes.

I am fairly blown away that Protel/Altium is still shipping crappy
autorouters. I would have thought that the product would have improved
over the years instead of becoming useless, and I am /completely/ blown
away that they are still in business with a product that costs so much
yet has gotten worse. How much abuse will users take?

Not only their autorouters are crappy, but so is their software
securtiy. Download any 30-day trial and find a working crack on
the Internet within ONE MINUTE! Years ago I bought Protel version 3
which was very buggy. Confronting Protel with my complaints they
offered a $ 4,000 upgrade! That's really customer friendly. I managed
to sell that version. Now working with Protel 99 SP6 for free of
course when designing small boards. Workarounds for the ever
known buggs is bearable given the fact that it didn't cost me a penny.
--
Illusion

 

[Illusion]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:10:26 +0100, Pascal Bloem wrote:

"Antti Lukats" <antti@case2000.com> schreef in bericht
news:80a3aea5.0401182253.295f12d0@posting.google.com...
Hi

but how is Altium able to sell it for 7995 EUR ?!

Antti Lukats
P.S. if anyone has succeeded with larger design and Protel DXP
autorouter
I would appreciate a short info notice

Altiums has admitted that the autorouter is failing!
And they claim that Protel 2004 will address this and other issues.

Typical Protel policy. They make you pay for something you never get!

Protel 2004 is scheduled to be release on 16 february of this year,
and wil be a free upgrade to Protel DXP (Licensed users only)
Despite all, there are some people that get "some" result from using
Protel's Autorouter (I'm not one of them !). Fine tuning the rules is
a must before you can expect any exceptable results!

Pascal
--

Illusion

 

[Pascal Bloem]

"Illusion" <invalid@adress.here> schreef in bericht
news:2p7oc9b0jno8.3x5pm4jsf8df.dlg@40tude.net...

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:10:26 +0100, Pascal Bloem wrote:

"Antti Lukats" <antti@case2000.com> schreef in bericht
news:80a3aea5.0401182253.295f12d0@posting.google.com...
Hi

Altiums has admitted that the autorouter is failing!
And they claim that Protel 2004 will address this and other issues.

Typical Protel policy. They make you pay for something you never get!

--
Illusion

I Guess your right in a way, but on the other hand... i worked with Protel
99SE
and didn't like it. Then i used OrCAD (Release 9 and 10) and the support
provided
by Cadence is just as crappy as that from altium (in my experience!).
Then came Protel DXP and it has its issues, but then again every packages
has!
Protel DXP isn't al that bad, created a few high profile projects with it,
without
any big problem. (And since then OrCAD is out of the picture)

I Never try to use autorouter, I have a licensed copy of specctra sitting in
the corner,
collecting dust (i rarely use it!)

And software security is a problem wich all packages have to deal with
You told the story about the DXP trial, the same is for OrCAD!
You could ask Cadence for a trial/student version of OrCAD and within
a few minutes crack it. Or if you keep you're eyes open, you can download
complete ISO's of probably every package on this earth!

Just my opinion,
Pascal

 

[Antti Lukats]

"Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" <j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSadelphiaDOT.net> wrote in message news:<8ijPb.3213$Fp1.2079988@news1.news.adelphia.net>...

Pascal Bloem wrote:

I am fairly blown away that Protel/Altium is still shipping crappy
autorouters. I would have thought that the product would have improved
over the years instead of becoming useless, and I am /completely/ blown
away that they are still in business with a product that costs so much
yet has gotten worse. How much abuse will users take?

Ok, Antti makes a conclusion now about Altium (Protel DXP) -

Answers to my mailing did confirm that the problems we have
encountered are not only happening to us, and that the Autorouter
really is UNUSEABLE.

For those who still consider attempts to make use of Protel DXP
autorouter (Situs?) I describe what happens:

1 By carefully moving some components (like 0603) a little bit around
you get the autorouter to finish with no contentions.
2 You order the PCB.
3 During initial testing you find that one single wire just goes
across another (different net)
4 You check the design you sent to factory, and still autorouter says
no contention, but manual start of DRC reports the error that
autorouter left in.
5 Now you run DRC every time after autorouter attempt. And you get
always DRC errors, wires across, some via touching a smd pad (dif net)
two neighbour smd pads (same net) not connected. etc...
6 When your board goes more complex those things go worse and worse to
the extent that the outcome is so bad that you just cant send to
manufacturing.
7 You try to export-import the design to some other PCB cad for
external as last attempt to recover your work, and what? there is no
common denominator between the formats Protel DXP can export and other
CADs can import. No way. This includes P-CAD another Altium Product
(more expensive than Protel DXP). There is no way to get PCB from DXP
to P-CAD.
8 You are f.... because you have to deliver a working product at fixed
time. For me it means that I will be 'fired' and job-less from
01.04.2004
9 I asked for help at Altium German support centre, still waiting for
reply.

!!! DO NOT TRY TO USE Protel DXP Autorouter for anything that has more
than 2 layers and 2 large SMD chips on board.
If you use Protel DXP, ALWAYS RUN DRC Check manually. And dont believe
it, print out the artwork on transparences and check visually before
submitting to the factory.


or you will be doomed.

There is one escape route though - if you can afford it use Specctra
Autorouter - this is the only things that helps you. The export to
specctra and import of routed design - that works. Still you need to
run DRC check after importing the routed design from Specctra. For PCB
rules I would also suggest setting them in Specctra not in DXP as it
allows more flexibility.

Thanks for the replies, and hope mine helps someone to avoid getting
into the
same S... I am right now. If I dont have a work contract I have to
leave Germany, my son can't finish the school year here, I cant cancel
the lease contract for the flat where we live, I have no money to pay
for the back-relocation of my famil (wife, 3 kids: 16y, 1.8y, 3months)
to my home country, etc... not things I wanted to see happen.

Antti Lukats
http://xilinx.openchip.org
http://shop.openchip.org

says thanks to all who did reply.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:00:04 GMT, "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
<j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSadelphiaDOT.net> wrote:

I am fairly blown away that Protel/Altium is still shipping crappy
autorouters. I would have thought that the product would have improved
over the years instead of becoming useless, and I am /completely/ blown
away that they are still in business with a product that costs so much
yet has gotten worse. How much abuse will users take?

Any amount, it seems. That's why so many of us still use the all-time
epitome of *crap* software, Windows.

--

My opinion is worth what you've paid for it.

 

[Mike Rocket J. Squirrel E]

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:00:04 GMT, "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSadelphiaDOT.net> wrote:


I am fairly blown away that Protel/Altium is still shipping crappy
autorouters. I would have thought that the product would have improved
over the years instead of becoming useless, and I am /completely/ blown
away that they are still in business with a product that costs so much
yet has gotten worse. How much abuse will users take?


Any amount, it seems. That's why so many of us still use the all-time
epitome of *crap* software, Windows.

But Windows does not cost a tenth of the price of the Protel product,

nor does it totally fail at doing any of the tasks I paid for it to do.
And I gotta say that running Windows 2000 is a pleasant experience after
years of crashing a re-booting '95 and '98. XP seems sturdy, too.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer)

 

[nospam]

"Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
<j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSadelphiaDOT.net> wrote:

Any amount, it seems. That's why so many of us still use the all-time
epitome of *crap* software, Windows.

But Windows does not cost a tenth of the price of the Protel product,
nor does it totally fail at doing any of the tasks I paid for it to do.

No if costs thousands times more, spread across 10s of millions of users
rather than a few thousand.

 

[R.Lewis]

"nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:ea3a109r0vhrbfohjaptm5b39g2jn6ojcb@4ax.com...

"Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSadelphiaDOT.net> wrote:

Any amount, it seems. That's why so many of us still use the all-time
epitome of *crap* software, Windows.

But Windows does not cost a tenth of the price of the Protel product,
nor does it totally fail at doing any of the tasks I paid for it to do.

No if costs thousands times more, spread across 10s of millions of users
rather than a few thousand.

Thats about as dumb an argument as I have seen for a long time.