Protel 99SE - a good choice

[Mike Rocket J Squirrel]

I have been using Protel 3.x for ages (obviously), but under XP it
crashes a lot, for various reasons that are mysterious, despite my best
effort to make XP as compatible as possible. I don't do many boards, and
my needs are simple: schematic capture and board layout, mainly analog,
large-trace, two-sided, hand-placed and routed. About two boards a year.
That said, I have huge schematic and pcb libraries and don't want to
re-create all those bits.

But this week the crashing and other quirks of Protel 3.x have finally
gotten really frustrating, so I contacted my local Altium salesguy and
he quoted me nearly $10,000 to buy a single seat of Designer 6, which is
a bit silly for my needs. He agrees. He suggested that maybe 99SE would
be a better choice, and knows a fellow who is looking to sell his copy
for $3,000.

$3,000 is affordable, but it's not a trivial amount of money. I could
use a bit of advice on this before I plunk down the cash, so TIA who can
maybe provide some guidance.

-- mike elliott

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 31 May 2006 11:04:21 -0700, the renowned Mike Rocket J
Squirrel <j.michael.elliott@GOLLYgmail.com> wrote:

I have been using Protel 3.x for ages (obviously), but under XP it
crashes a lot, for various reasons that are mysterious, despite my best
effort to make XP as compatible as possible. I don't do many boards, and
my needs are simple: schematic capture and board layout, mainly analog,
large-trace, two-sided, hand-placed and routed. About two boards a year.
That said, I have huge schematic and pcb libraries and don't want to
re-create all those bits.

But this week the crashing and other quirks of Protel 3.x have finally
gotten really frustrating, so I contacted my local Altium salesguy and
he quoted me nearly $10,000 to buy a single seat of Designer 6, which is
a bit silly for my needs. He agrees. He suggested that maybe 99SE would
be a better choice, and knows a fellow who is looking to sell his copy
for $3,000.

$3,000 is affordable, but it's not a trivial amount of money. I could
use a bit of advice on this before I plunk down the cash, so TIA who can
maybe provide some guidance.

-- mike elliott

Why don't you give the 30-day trial of 99SE (with SP6) a try and see
how you like it?

Personally, I think 2 boards a year is going to be inefficient
whatever you do-- the programs are just too complex to stay quick on
them unless you are using them fairly regularly. Maybe it's cheaper to
use a second computer with Win-whatever OS loaded to use your old
software so you can avoid the learning curve.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Bo]

"Mike Rocket J Squirrel" <j.michael.elliott@GOLLYgmail.com> wrote in message
news:tYydnV2Od9EyR-DZnZ2dnUVZ_tmdnZ2d@adelphia.com...

I have been using Protel 3.x for ages (obviously), but under XP it crashes
a lot, for various reasons that are mysterious, despite my best effort to
make XP as compatible as possible. I don't do many boards, and my needs are
simple: schematic capture and board layout, mainly analog, large-trace,
two-sided, hand-placed and routed. About two boards a year. That said, I
have huge schematic and pcb libraries and don't want to re-create all those
bits.

But this week the crashing and other quirks of Protel 3.x have finally
gotten really frustrating, so I contacted my local Altium salesguy and he
quoted me nearly $10,000 to buy a single seat of Designer 6, which is a
bit silly for my needs. He agrees. He suggested that maybe 99SE would be a
better choice, and knows a fellow who is looking to sell his copy for
$3,000.

$3,000 is affordable, but it's not a trivial amount of money. I could use
a bit of advice on this before I plunk down the cash, so TIA who can maybe
provide some guidance.

-- mike elliott

Well worth it. I like Protel99SE better than most $1M packages that some
companies I've worked for bought.....

Bo

 

[JeffM]

I have been using Protel 3.x for ages (obviously),
but under XP it crashes a lot
[...]this week the crashing and other quirks of Protel 3.x
have finally gotten really frustrating
-- mike elliott (Mike Rocket J Squirrel)

How about a FAT32 partition and a Boot Manager?
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:e0R7iiJZWwQJ:www.programmersheaven.com/zone16/cat764/index.htm+partition-manager+boot-manager+7tools+BootIt+Acronis+Paragon+Partition-Manager-Personal

....or as Speff said, a separate, specialized, retro box for CAD.

 

[Mike Elliott]

On 6/1/2006 1:24 AM JeffM wrote:

I have been using Protel 3.x for ages (obviously),
but under XP it crashes a lot
[...]this week the crashing and other quirks of Protel 3.x
have finally gotten really frustrating
-- mike elliott (Mike Rocket J Squirrel)

How about a FAT32 partition and a Boot Manager?
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:e0R7iiJZWwQJ:www.programmersheaven.com/zone16/cat764/index.htm+partition-manager+boot-manager+7tools+BootIt+Acronis+Paragon+Partition-Manager-Personal

...or as Speff said, a separate, specialized, retro box for CAD.

Yeah, I reckon that would work. It would sure be less-expensive than
99SE. I could avoid the 99SE learning curve, too. I don't think that
99SE offers anything that I desperately need anyway. So I'll ask my
local computer shop weenies how much they'll charge to slap together a
nifty little machine with 98SE on it.

Thanks for the help, everyone!

-- m.e.

 

[nospam]

Mike Elliott <j.michael.elliott@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, I reckon that would work. It would sure be less-expensive than
99SE. I could avoid the 99SE learning curve, too. I don't think that
99SE offers anything that I desperately need anyway. So I'll ask my
local computer shop weenies how much they'll charge to slap together a
nifty little machine with 98SE on it.

Thanks for the help, everyone!

Hard to advise without a handle on what problems the old protel is having.

You could also look at VMWare to create a virtual machine setup for and
running whatever OS seems to work best.

http://www.vmware.com/products/ws/

There appears to be a 30 day evaluation available and at $189 it is cheaper
than another machine.
--

 

[Mike Elliott]

On 6/1/2006 9:48 AM nospam wrote:

Mike Elliott <j.michael.elliott@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, I reckon that would work. It would sure be less-expensive than
99SE. I could avoid the 99SE learning curve, too. I don't think that
99SE offers anything that I desperately need anyway. So I'll ask my
local computer shop weenies how much they'll charge to slap together a
nifty little machine with 98SE on it.

Thanks for the help, everyone!

Hard to advise without a handle on what problems the old protel is having.

You could also look at VMWare to create a virtual machine setup for and
running whatever OS seems to work best.

http://www.vmware.com/products/ws/

There appears to be a 30 day evaluation available and at $189 it is cheaper
than another machine.

Protel 3.x under XP appears to be having a host of problems. The only
reproducible one is when I hit the scroll wheel on my mouse -- that's
guaranteed to cause Protel AdvPCB to crash instantly with a General
Protection error. It generally takes two or three attempts after that to
relaunch Protel, the first one or two attempts crash immediately, too.
Often Protel will have forgotten the files I was working on, and will
often forget my workspace settings, too. This error can be caused on
both of my machines, one of which has a scroll area on the touchpad.

Often, the crashes result in Protel corrupting or weirdly messing up its
own config files (.ini, .rcs, etc.) so re-launches are always an adventure.

Even if I tossed the mouse for a two-button type, and figured out how to
disable the touchpad's scroll area, Protel still has its own set of
exciting and unpredictable crashes that occur "just because," near as I
can tell, which occur at random times, and don't seem to be associated
with any particular operation.

In addition, just to mix it up, there are subtle errors that occur, in
which case Protel will helpfully provide a "Protel has lunched --
Continue? Save and Quit?" dialog. Saving and quitting often results in
corrupted files, while continuing seems to work just fine...until an
hour later I may discover that the board I have been working wasn't
really being saved anywhere on the HD, despite repeated File > Saves.

So what's the scoop on VMWare? Looks pretty geeky. But, as you say, at
$189, it might be the low-cost solution to an otherwise messy and
embarrassing problem. Thank you!

-- m.e.

 

[nospam]

Mike Elliott <j.michael.elliott@gmail.com> wrote:

Protel 3.x under XP appears to be having a host of problems. The only
reproducible one is when I hit the scroll wheel on my mouse -- that's
guaranteed to cause Protel AdvPCB to crash instantly with a General
Protection error.

Probably some windows message it is getting which it doesn't understand and
handles ungracefully.

On the other stuff I've used Protel for years, and it often had trouble
recovering from crashes.

So what's the scoop on VMWare? Looks pretty geeky. But, as you say, at
$189, it might be the low-cost solution to an otherwise messy and
embarrassing problem.

It creates virtual machines, emulated real machines complete with BIOS and
peripherals. Hard drives are emulated with files on the host machine. The
host machine floppy drives, CD drives, LPT, serial ports, and USB devices
can be attached to the virtual machines. It also supports networking so the
virtual machine can be attached to the hosts network.

The emulation is fast, if you install VMware drivers for video mouse etc
for the target OS (check win95 is still supported) you will hardly notice
you are running a virtual machine. You can also take and manage multiple
'snapshots' of the complete virtual machine state so if something goes
wrong you can just set the machine back to how it was yesterday or
whenever.

Install VM ware, stick a win95 boot CD in the drive and you could be
running win95 in 10 minutes.

If it can solve your protel problems I think it will be a better solution
than another machine and its only going to cost you some time to try it.
--

 

Mike Rocket J Squirrel <j.michael.elliott@gollygmail.com> wrote:

I have been using Protel 3.x for ages (obviously), but under XP it
crashes a lot, for various reasons that are mysterious, despite my best
effort to make XP as compatible as possible. I don't do many boards, and
my needs are simple: schematic capture and board layout, mainly analog,
large-trace, two-sided, hand-placed and routed. About two boards a year.
That said, I have huge schematic and pcb libraries and don't want to
re-create all those bits.

But this week the crashing and other quirks of Protel 3.x have finally
gotten really frustrating, so I contacted my local Altium salesguy and
he quoted me nearly $10,000 to buy a single seat of Designer 6, which is
a bit silly for my needs. He agrees. He suggested that maybe 99SE would
be a better choice, and knows a fellow who is looking to sell his copy
for $3,000.

$3,000 is affordable, but it's not a trivial amount of money. I could
use a bit of advice on this before I plunk down the cash, so TIA who can
maybe provide some guidance.

There's Qemu (free)
http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/

VmWare (already mentioned)

Or put a seperate machine in the cellar with TightVNC, and remote control it
from your ordinary computer.

A laptop with Win98 + Protel maybe is the less fuss solution. Just don't
forget the backups..

 

[Mike Elliott]

On 6/1/2006 12:02 PM nospam wrote:

Mike Elliott <j.michael.elliott@gmail.com> wrote:

Protel 3.x under XP appears to be having a host of problems. The only
reproducible one is when I hit the scroll wheel on my mouse -- that's
guaranteed to cause Protel AdvPCB to crash instantly with a General
Protection error.

Probably some windows message it is getting which it doesn't understand and
handles ungracefully.

On the other stuff I've used Protel for years, and it often had trouble
recovering from crashes.

So what's the scoop on VMWare? Looks pretty geeky. But, as you say, at
$189, it might be the low-cost solution to an otherwise messy and
embarrassing problem.

It creates virtual machines, emulated real machines complete with BIOS and
peripherals. Hard drives are emulated with files on the host machine. The
host machine floppy drives, CD drives, LPT, serial ports, and USB devices
can be attached to the virtual machines. It also supports networking so the
virtual machine can be attached to the hosts network.

The emulation is fast, if you install VMware drivers for video mouse etc
for the target OS (check win95 is still supported) you will hardly notice
you are running a virtual machine. You can also take and manage multiple
'snapshots' of the complete virtual machine state so if something goes
wrong you can just set the machine back to how it was yesterday or
whenever.

Install VM ware, stick a win95 boot CD in the drive and you could be
running win95 in 10 minutes.

If it can solve your protel problems I think it will be a better solution
than another machine and its only going to cost you some time to try it.

I think you are right. It sounds good. I've downloaded and installed
VMware. Anyone got a Win95 or 98SE boot CD they can sell me, or can tell
me how to make a 98SE boot CD out of this 98SE install CD I'm holding here?

-- m.e.

 

[David Brown]

Mike Elliott wrote:

On 6/1/2006 12:02 PM nospam wrote:

Mike Elliott <j.michael.elliott@gmail.com> wrote:

Protel 3.x under XP appears to be having a host of problems. The only
reproducible one is when I hit the scroll wheel on my mouse -- that's
guaranteed to cause Protel AdvPCB to crash instantly with a General
Protection error.

Probably some windows message it is getting which it doesn't
understand and
handles ungracefully.
On the other stuff I've used Protel for years, and it often had trouble
recovering from crashes.
So what's the scoop on VMWare? Looks pretty geeky. But, as you say,
at $189, it might be the low-cost solution to an otherwise messy and
embarrassing problem.

It creates virtual machines, emulated real machines complete with BIOS
and
peripherals. Hard drives are emulated with files on the host machine. The
host machine floppy drives, CD drives, LPT, serial ports, and USB devices
can be attached to the virtual machines. It also supports networking
so the
virtual machine can be attached to the hosts network.
The emulation is fast, if you install VMware drivers for video mouse etc
for the target OS (check win95 is still supported) you will hardly notice
you are running a virtual machine. You can also take and manage multiple
'snapshots' of the complete virtual machine state so if something goes
wrong you can just set the machine back to how it was yesterday or
whenever.
Install VM ware, stick a win95 boot CD in the drive and you could be
running win95 in 10 minutes.
If it can solve your protel problems I think it will be a better solution
than another machine and its only going to cost you some time to try it.

I think you are right. It sounds good. I've downloaded and installed
VMware. Anyone got a Win95 or 98SE boot CD they can sell me, or can tell
me how to make a 98SE boot CD out of this 98SE install CD I'm holding here?

-- m.e.

Isn't Protel 3.x a 16-bit application from Win3.x ? If so, you might be
able to get it running using DosBOX, which is a DOS Emulator (for
windows and *nix), if you have some old Win3.x install disks.

 

[Mike Elliott]

On 6/2/2006 12:34 AM David Brown wrote:

Mike Elliott wrote:
On 6/1/2006 12:02 PM nospam wrote:

Mike Elliott <j.michael.elliott@gmail.com> wrote:

Protel 3.x under XP appears to be having a host of problems. The
only reproducible one is when I hit the scroll wheel on my mouse --
that's guaranteed to cause Protel AdvPCB to crash instantly with a
General Protection error.

Probably some windows message it is getting which it doesn't
understand and
handles ungracefully.
On the other stuff I've used Protel for years, and it often had trouble
recovering from crashes.
So what's the scoop on VMWare? Looks pretty geeky. But, as you say,
at $189, it might be the low-cost solution to an otherwise messy and
embarrassing problem.

It creates virtual machines, emulated real machines complete with
BIOS and
peripherals. Hard drives are emulated with files on the host machine.
The
host machine floppy drives, CD drives, LPT, serial ports, and USB
devices
can be attached to the virtual machines. It also supports networking
so the
virtual machine can be attached to the hosts network.
The emulation is fast, if you install VMware drivers for video mouse etc
for the target OS (check win95 is still supported) you will hardly
notice
you are running a virtual machine. You can also take and manage multiple
'snapshots' of the complete virtual machine state so if something goes
wrong you can just set the machine back to how it was yesterday or
whenever.
Install VM ware, stick a win95 boot CD in the drive and you could be
running win95 in 10 minutes.
If it can solve your protel problems I think it will be a better
solution
than another machine and its only going to cost you some time to try it.

I think you are right. It sounds good. I've downloaded and installed
VMware. Anyone got a Win95 or 98SE boot CD they can sell me, or can
tell me how to make a 98SE boot CD out of this 98SE install CD I'm
holding here?

-- m.e.

Isn't Protel 3.x a 16-bit application from Win3.x ? If so, you might be
able to get it running using DosBOX, which is a DOS Emulator (for
windows and *nix), if you have some old Win3.x install disks.

Thanks, but no got Win 3.x install disks. I recall that Protel 3.x ran
pretty stable under 95/98 -- I have a 98SE install disk, I would like to
create a bootable CD from that. Can anyone point me to simple
step-by-step "how to"? Many TIA's.

-- m.e.

 

[Mike Elliott]

On 6/2/2006 8:16 AM Mike Elliott wrote:

On 6/2/2006 12:34 AM David Brown wrote:

Mike Elliott wrote:
On 6/1/2006 12:02 PM nospam wrote:

Mike Elliott <j.michael.elliott@gmail.com> wrote:

Protel 3.x under XP appears to be having a host of problems. The
only reproducible one is when I hit the scroll wheel on my mouse --
that's guaranteed to cause Protel AdvPCB to crash instantly with a
General Protection error.

Probably some windows message it is getting which it doesn't
understand and
handles ungracefully.
On the other stuff I've used Protel for years, and it often had trouble
recovering from crashes.
So what's the scoop on VMWare? Looks pretty geeky. But, as you say,
at $189, it might be the low-cost solution to an otherwise messy
and embarrassing problem.

It creates virtual machines, emulated real machines complete with
BIOS and
peripherals. Hard drives are emulated with files on the host
machine. The
host machine floppy drives, CD drives, LPT, serial ports, and USB
devices
can be attached to the virtual machines. It also supports networking
so the
virtual machine can be attached to the hosts network.
The emulation is fast, if you install VMware drivers for video mouse
etc
for the target OS (check win95 is still supported) you will hardly
notice
you are running a virtual machine. You can also take and manage
multiple
'snapshots' of the complete virtual machine state so if something goes
wrong you can just set the machine back to how it was yesterday or
whenever.
Install VM ware, stick a win95 boot CD in the drive and you could be
running win95 in 10 minutes.
If it can solve your protel problems I think it will be a better
solution
than another machine and its only going to cost you some time to try
it.

I think you are right. It sounds good. I've downloaded and installed
VMware. Anyone got a Win95 or 98SE boot CD they can sell me, or can
tell me how to make a 98SE boot CD out of this 98SE install CD I'm
holding here?

-- m.e.

Isn't Protel 3.x a 16-bit application from Win3.x ? If so, you might
be able to get it running using DosBOX, which is a DOS Emulator (for
windows and *nix), if you have some old Win3.x install disks.

Thanks, but no got Win 3.x install disks. I recall that Protel 3.x ran
pretty stable under 95/98 -- I have a 98SE install disk, I would like to
create a bootable CD from that. Can anyone point me to simple
step-by-step "how to"? Many TIA's.

Belay that. My local computer retailer geeks tell me that my Win2000 and
Win98SE install disks are already bootable. I misunderstood the
"bootable" bit, thinking it meant that one could boot the OS from the
CD's, not that they could be booted from for installation. Even as I
speak Win2K is installing and, fingers crossed, phase of the moon
correct, luck be a lady tonight, Protel 3.x will install and think it is
on a Win2k box, and I recall that Protel 3.x seemed to be happy under
that OS. Thanks, everyone. I will, just for the archives, report how
well this crafty idea works.

-- m.e.

 

[JeffM]

I have a 98SE install disk,
I would like to create a bootable CD from that.
Mike Elliott

Your version of bottom-posting (without trimming ANYTHING)
it a bit much.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:ELi1nLLHdXgJ:www.softwarepolish.com/personal/links.htm+install-Windows-98-under-VMware+Bart-Lagerweij&strip=1
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:qrpQzYlRGpUJ:www.nu2.nu/bootdisk/network/+only-*-*-on-*-NT4/2000/XP+use-this-boot-disk-on-*-bootable-CD+Mike-Elliott+zzz+Manually-create-*-*-*

 

[Mike Elliott]

On 6/2/2006 10:46 AM JeffM wrote:

Your version of bottom-posting (without trimming ANYTHING)
it a bit much.

Thanks for the links, and my apologies. Over on the Mozilla newsgroups a
fellow gets reamed if he doesn't do anything OTHER than bottom-post
without snipping. Every group has its own version of polite behavior.

-- m.e.

 

[AZ Nomad]

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:02:12 +0100, nospam <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:

Install VM ware, stick a win95 boot CD in the drive and you could be
running win95 in 10 minutes.

That would be a neat trick considering that there's no such thing as
a win95 boot CD. The first microsoft OS on a bootable CD was windowsME.
(Maybe 98, but certainly not 95)

 

[martin.shoebridge]

Doesn't crash for me under XP Pro.......... did you set the program to
W98/95 compatibility mode???

But this week the crashing and other quirks of Protel 3.x have finally
gotten really frustrating, so I contacted my local Altium salesguy and he
quoted me nearly $10,000 to buy a single seat of Designer 6, which is a
bit silly for my needs. He agrees. He suggested that maybe 99SE would be a
better choice, and knows a fellow who is looking to sell his copy for
$3,000.

$3,000 is affordable, but it's not a trivial amount of money. I could use
a bit of advice on this before I plunk down the cash, so TIA who can maybe
provide some guidance.

-- mike elliott

 

[Markus Baertschi]

In article <1149150284.058321.187840
@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, jeffm_@email.com says...

How about a FAT32 partition and a Boot Manager?

You might like a virtual PC using VMWare better. You'll avoid the
old PC sitting in a corner taking up space. VMWare allows you to
install Win98 in a virtual PC on your machine.

Markus
--
Markus Baertschi Phone: ++41 (21) 807 1677
Bas du Rossé 14b Fax : ++41 (21) 807 1678
CH-1163, Etoy Email: markus@markus.org
Switzerland Homepage: www.markus.org

 

[Mike Elliott]

On 6/3/2006 3:22 AM martin.shoebridge wrote:

Doesn't crash for me under XP Pro.......... did you set the program to
W98/95 compatibility mode???

Yes, I mentioned that in another response in this thread. I've tried all
the compatibility modes. It's interesting that you're not having trouble
.. . . you're running Client (Protel 3.5/7)? I'm having this problem on
both of my XP notebooks.

-- m.e.

 

[Mike Elliott]

On 6/3/2006 6:03 AM Markus Baertschi wrote:

You might like a virtual PC using VMWare better. You'll avoid the
old PC sitting in a corner taking up space. VMWare allows you to
install Win98 in a virtual PC on your machine.

Thank you, Markus. I have installed VWware WS and was ready to try this
experiment when I discovered that I lost the activation key for my
Win2000 install disk. I have ordered another copy of Win2000 and will
continue this experiment when it arrives.

-- m.e.