Programmable RF sig gen

[John Larkin]

I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[George Herold]

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 11:55:05 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

I've been looking at the ADF4351...
The eaval board is ~$160
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/development-boards-kits-programmers/evaluation-and-demonstration-boards-and-kits/787?k=adf4351

But I think there are some ebay stuff using the same IC.

George H.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:54:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
<5idchedcn8d4ucif0lubplf9ienoshka4o@4ax.com>:

I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

Maybe for that range heterodyne,
mix 10 GHz or so with a variable other one?

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 11:55:05 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

I've been looking at the ADF4351...
The eaval board is ~$160
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/development-boards-kits-programmers/evaluation-and-demonstration-boards-and-kits/787?k=adf4351

But I think there are some ebay stuff using the same IC.

George H.

I was thinking about buying a box, all done. My test department would
want a few.

The outputs of the gadgets would need to be measured too. Which we
could do an a fast oscilloscope, or maybe one of those USB RF power
meters or spectrum analyzers.

I guess an untriggered sampling scope is an RF power meter.

The idea is to not spend > 100K to generate and measure some clock
signals.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Winfield Hill]

George Herold wrote...

On June 28, 2019, John Larkin wrote:

I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave
input signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do. ...

I've been looking at the ADF4351...

Does that have a sinewave output over the whole range?


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[George Herold]

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 12:43:20 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 11:55:05 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

I've been looking at the ADF4351...
The eaval board is ~$160
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/development-boards-kits-programmers/evaluation-and-demonstration-boards-and-kits/787?k=adf4351

But I think there are some ebay stuff using the same IC.

George H.

I was thinking about buying a box, all done. My test department would
want a few.

The outputs of the gadgets would need to be measured too. Which we
could do an a fast oscilloscope, or maybe one of those USB RF power
meters or spectrum analyzers.

I guess an untriggered sampling scope is an RF power meter.

The idea is to not spend > 100K to generate and measure some clock
signals.

A box would be nice. Rigol has some RF sig gens... but they are several $k
to >$10k.

George H.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[George Herold]

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 1:39:45 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:

George Herold wrote...

On June 28, 2019, John Larkin wrote:

I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave
input signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do. ...

I've been looking at the ADF4351...

Does that have a sinewave output over the whole range?
I have no idea. I'm not even sure it puts out a sinewave.

(I guess I need to look at it more. :^)

George H.

--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (28 Jun 2019 10:39:29 -0700) it happened Winfield Hill
<winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote in <qf5jch0fji@drn.newsguy.com>:

George Herold wrote...

On June 28, 2019, John Larkin wrote:

I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave
input signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do. ...

I've been looking at the ADF4351...

Does that have a sinewave output over the whole range?

AFAIK it does not go below 35 MHz
There is a lot of spurious around the selected center frequency.
That chip is much like the ADF4350, using it, and wrote test software for it:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#ADF4350_test

I would do it this way (for low budget):
Buy 2 universal LNBs with PLL control, almost all cheap new LNBs have a
9.75 and 10.6 GHz on chip oscillator PLL locked to a 25 MHz xtal.

I have a setup here where I lock it to an external synthesized source
that is crystal locked TCXO.
http://panteltje.com/pub/ethernet_controlled_LNB_reference_cicuit_diagram_IMG_6848.JPG
that circuit has been changed now, old circuit diagram.


So take one 10.65 GHz LNB, and synthesize an about 25 MHz reference for second LNB to stay between
13.6 GHz and 10.7 GHz, mix down the 2, lowpass above 3 GHz, and you are done.
(The 25 MHz is internally multiplied in the LNBs by 390 or 426 to get 9750 MHz or 10650 MHz,
if you use a different reference and not the 25 MHz xtal in that other LNB,
then you can usually (depends on the LNB chip) steer away a lot from those frequencies,

and that is the trick, the difference frequency will be your output.
Mixer chip... 2 LNBs, synthesizer board with PIC micro and ethernet chip for remote control
and software I already wrote,
Was published here this year, use it receive QO100 satellite.

Total < 50 USD.
Time...

I do not know about simple cheap USB boxes that can do 1 MHz to 3 GHz sine wave output.
My raspberry can do 150 kHz to 500 Mhz square wave xtal locked, so that will not work.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#freq_pi

Not sure John L is willing do all that ...

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 28/06/19 18:39, Winfield Hill wrote:

George Herold wrote...

On June 28, 2019, John Larkin wrote:

I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave
input signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do. ...

I've been looking at the ADF4351...

Does that have a sinewave output over the whole range?

From memory 2.2-4.4GHz is the VCO output sinewave.
Lower frequencies are the output from a divider chain.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 29/6/19 2:07 am, George Herold wrote:

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 11:55:05 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.
I've been looking at the ADF4351...
The eval board is ~$160
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/development-boards-kits-programmers/evaluation-and-demonstration-boards-and-kits/787?k=adf4351
But I think there are some ebay stuff using the same IC.

I have one of those (AliExpress actually). Beware though; the chip
contains multiple VCOs and goes squirrely when it changes over and when
it range switches until the VCO locks again. Plus you have the
square-wave thing.

Another way to do what Jan talked about is to use its faster brother the
ADF4356 somewhere above 3GHz and mix that with the (less adjustable but
cheaper) output of an ADF4156, LPF at 3GHz. That gets you continuous
coverage from 0..3GHz, but you still can't get clean continuous sweeps.

Clifford Heath.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 28 Jun 2019 20:42:45 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <V4uRE.67606$I92.19394@fx17.am4>:

On 28/06/19 18:39, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

On June 28, 2019, John Larkin wrote:

I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave
input signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do. ...

I've been looking at the ADF4351...

Does that have a sinewave output over the whole range?

From memory 2.2-4.4GHz is the VCO output sinewave.
Lower frequencies are the output from a divider chain.

http://panteltje.com/pub/1MHz_to_3GHz_oscillator_rr_IXIMG_0041.JPG
The simple 10 dollars solution, not tested,

2 twisted wire oscillators each at 10GHz or higher,
fed into a dual gate MOSFET mixer.
Output is f1 - f2.
Frequency control:
one oscillator is driven higher and the other lower from a diff amp.
add varicaps or whatever have you to increase range.

Optionally a 2 USD (hehe) prescaler chip and a phase comparator,
to make it PLL locked to some reference, else potmeter.


People that still use the Nipkov disk for viewing may have problems reading this.

I dreamt this up last night after watching a Riddick movie where he had to survive on
some alien planet hunted by bounty hunters and all sort of creatures...
Story of my life..? LOL


So YMMV.
JoLa will have no problem with improving this scheme I am sure.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 6:43:20 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 11:55:05 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

I've been looking at the ADF4351...
The eaval board is ~$160
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/development-boards-kits-programmers/evaluation-and-demonstration-boards-and-kits/787?k=adf4351

But I think there are some ebay stuff using the same IC.

George H.

I was thinking about buying a box, all done. My test department would
want a few.

The outputs of the gadgets would need to be measured too. Which we
could do an a fast oscilloscope, or maybe one of those USB RF power
meters or spectrum analyzers.

I guess an untriggered sampling scope is an RF power meter.

The idea is to not spend > 100K to generate and measure some clock
signals.

It seems to be the sort of job that a direct digital signal generating chip would do, except that they didn't get up to 3GHz when I last looked.

https://cc-globaltech.com/product/av1441a-signal-generator-9khz%EF%BD%9E3ghz/

claims to use this approach, but it isn't all that cheap.

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-9956EN.pdf

have more products, but no prices.

https://www.thinksrs.com/products/sg380.html

is in the same ball-park.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Piglet]

On 29/06/2019 07:21, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 29/6/19 2:07 am, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 11:55:05 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.
I've been looking at the ADF4351...
The eval board is ~$160
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/development-boards-kits-programmers/evaluation-and-demonstration-boards-and-kits/787?k=adf4351

But I think there are some ebay stuff using the same IC.

I have one of those (AliExpress actually). Beware though; the chip
contains multiple VCOs and goes squirrely when it changes over and when
it range switches until the VCO locks again. Plus you have the
square-wave thing.

Another way to do what Jan talked about is to use its faster brother the
ADF4356 somewhere above 3GHz and mix that with the (less adjustable but
cheaper) output of an ADF4156, LPF at 3GHz. That gets you continuous
coverage from 0..3GHz, but you still can't get clean continuous sweeps.

Clifford Heath.

Does JL actually need continuous sweep. If it is production line test
then a handful of spot frequencies could be enough?

piglet

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 11:55:05 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

I've been looking at the ADF4351...
The eaval board is ~$160
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/development-boards-kits-programmers/evaluation-and-demonstration-boards-and-kits/787?k=adf4351

But I think there are some ebay stuff using the same IC.

George H.

We have a new pulse generator - almost done - that uses two of the
LMX2571 synthesizer chips, which are amazingly good. We see 1 ps RMS
jitter, which is our measurement floor.

But I just want to buy a few boxes all done with USB and all, but not
pay multi kilobucks. I don't need super signal quality.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Chris]

On 06/28/19 16:54, John Larkin wrote:

I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.

If you have one of th older HP sig gens in the lab with ieee, why not
use that ?. You can get a network to ieee adapter at low cost now, and
there will be open source software to drive it from Linux or FreeBSD.
Either that, or look at the HP benchlink (?) lab control software, some
of which is free.

The Prologix ieee - lan board is not expensive (<$100 ?) and comes with
some software. Have used it here...

Chris

 

[sdy]

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 11:55:05 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

AD5351 won't go that low. I've been using an SG6000 USB sig gen:
https://www.dsinstruments.com/store/products/category/rf-signal-generators/
Easily programmable.

 

PTS Instruments PTS-xxxx shows up on Ebay often. I have a 160, a 25O, and a dual 300. The words i would use are Awe Inspiring. Not suitable as an AM/FM modulated box, but the 1 Hz tuning step is awesome, as is the continious pbase.

STEVE

 

[Dimitrij Klingbeil]

On 2019-06-29 16:41, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 11:55:05 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave
input signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator,
but if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So
can anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source?
Super low phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

I've been looking at the ADF4351... The eaval board is ~$160
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/development-boards-kits-programmers/evaluation-and-demonstration-boards-and-kits/787?k=adf4351



But I think there are some ebay stuff using the same IC.

George H.

We have a new pulse generator - almost done - that uses two of the
LMX2571 synthesizer chips, which are amazingly good. We see 1 ps RMS
jitter, which is our measurement floor.

But I just want to buy a few boxes all done with USB and all, but
not pay multi kilobucks. I don't need super signal quality.

That's about as "inexpensive" as it gets for a ready-made version

https://www.batronix.com/shop/signal-generator/Siglent-SSG3032X.html
https://www.batronix.com/shop/waveform-generator/Rigol-DSG830.html

Still in the vicinity of € 4k, either of them.

The cheap "single chip" ones typically intended for ham radio use don't
go low enough (35 MHz and up) and the output level is uncalibrated.

An Atten AT8010D only goes up to 1.1 GHz, so not high enough. A GA1483
or GA1484 covers the full range, but costs even more and may difficult
to find now (not sure if they are still being made, hard to tell).

Keysight and R&S ones with similar specs cost about double the Siglent
or Rigol ones. Rigol and Siglent cost about the same for the hardware
alone, but Siglent includes pulse modulation functions while for Rigol
you would have to buy them extra and they are somewhat expensive.

Regards
Dimitrij

 

PTS Instruments PTS-xxxx shows up on Ebay often.  I have a 160, a 25O,
and a dual 300. The words i would use are Awe Inspiring. Not
suitable as an  AM/FM modulated box, but the 1 Hz tuning step
is awesome, as is the continuous phase.

+1. My PTS-1000 is my fave.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

 

[John Miles, KE5FX]

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 8:55:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

I'm thinking about a new product line that will need a sinewave input
signal in the 1 MHz to 3 GHz range. 0 dBm should do.

We can test initial units manually, with a big signal generator, but
if the idea is successful we'll want to automate testing. So can
anyone recommend an affordable programmable signal source? Super low
phase noise is not important.

There are some cute little USB boxes around; I just want a
recommendation for one that people like.

We'd talk to it from a big Python program that talks to other
instruments too.

For USB control, you might take a look at the Valon synthesizer hardware
at https://www.valonrf.com/rf-products.html . He's just down the road
from you in Redwood City. I have a few of the Valon modules around here and
can recommend them. Good bang:buck ratio. Not as cheap as the latest shaky
Shenzhen specials on eBay, but much nicer hardware.

I had to scratch a similar last week, coincidentally enough. I put together
a nifty multichannel generator using only common household items such as an
AD9959 DDS eval board, some THS3491s, and an Arduino.

Sounds like the application was pretty similar to yours if you do end up
needing automation. It's basically a SCPI-controlled signal source for
automated factory tests of up to four DUTs at once. I didn't want to require
the operator to connect the device under test to a specific port, or to have
to enter the port number manually after hooking up the cables.

Fuzzy photo taken in hotel room in Fremont while working on the test script:
http://www.ke5fx.com/tsg4x200_sm.jpg

The box responds to typical SCPI commands over the usual USB COM port. What's
different about it is that each channel can be assigned a separate "default"
frequency and amplitude. When you send OUTput:CW or OUTputBM to specify new
settings for a given channel, you can also include an OUT:TIMEout command that
tells the generator to fall back to those defaults after a specified time.

So, given different default frequencies in each channel, the test software
can infer what port the DUT is connected to simply by commanding the DUT to
measure the frequency it sees at the beginning of the test cycle. This is
easy enough given that frequency measurement is basically what the DUT is
supposed to do.

During the test, commands are periodically retransmitted with OUT:TIMEouts of
10 seconds, and the box ignores any commands that match its existing settings
in the channel. But if the test software or the PC goes down for any reason,
the signal generator will time out by itself and revert to the frequencies
used for port identification in plenty of time for the next test cycle.
The software never has to initialize or reset the generator, or make any
assumptions about its current state.

This box only covers 10 kHz-200 MHz so the details wouldn't be useful in
your situation, but I'm now a big fan of this "timeout" technique. Worth
considering for any new test hardware that needs to be used by non-
specialists in a PC-driven environment, which is common enough these days.
Obviously most DUTs don't measure the applied frequency, but if estimating
it is something you can do for free in the firmware, it could save some
headaches and operator training time.

-- john, KE5FX