PRC as a amplifier in GPS question.

"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:masil6$mpn$1@dont-email.me...
"Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote in message
news:c8s8qb-3h9.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au...
On 4/02/2015 2:16 PM, Damian wrote:
I've come across these two online stores based in mainland China.

http://www.carsets.co.uk/

http://www.aliexpress.com/

I've used aliexpress, and their parent alibaba, for some years, buying
electronic bits and pieces and car parts, and have had no problems with
them, but it is definitely caveat emptor, make sure that what you /think/
you are buying is what is being sold! Example: the use of the word
"chrome" does not necessarily mean the part is chromed steel.

I've also used Taobao via taobaofocus to get stuff from China, very
cheap, but again, you have to be sure of what you are ordering, very
heavy on Chinglish!

NFI about carsets.

Thanks. carsets.co.uk appears to be somewhat dodgy.
They say, if it sounds too good to be true, it usually ain't.
That may be the case with them.
Click to expand...

CarSets appears to be an aggregator like DealExtreme and BangGood. The
interesting point is that the (UK) domain is registered to someone in the
UK, but his surname's Kim (the "Smith" of the Korean-speaking world), which
would explain the "Engrish" used on the info pages.

The domain was registered in November 2011 so it's been around for long
enough to have established itself (assuming the site was built immediately),
but strangely I haven't been able to find any references to it on review
sites. Somewhat alarmingly, almost all back-links to the site are on scam
blogs (the type created merely to bump search engine rankings). This though
may be the result of misguidedness rather than malice.

There's an easy enough way to find out of course; place an order for a
low-value item and see how the transaction goes (that's how I tested
AliExpress, DealExtreme and BangGood initially). Of course there's no
guarantee that one transaction will go as well as the next, but it should
give you a feel for the service level of the site.


--
Bob Milutinovic
Cognicom
 
"news13" <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:maskoe$q67$9@dont-email.me...
On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 18:41:53 +1100, Damian wrote:


Even with CCA reading, you need to punch in the claimed CCA rating to
get an accurate reading of the battery's current CCA reading.

CCA is a short term reading, the battery can provide it or not.
So, having to enter the claimed AH rating isn't an issue, as long as the
detected current AH rating is accurate enough.to assess the battery's
current capacity.

With Amp/Ht, the capacitry varies with discharge rates.
Click to expand...

Yes, I've been aware of that. 100 AH battery gives 20 hours if 5amp is drawn
from it continuously.
But, doesn't give 10 hours if 10 amp is drawn from it, rather it's more like
5 hours.
The more amps drawn from it, the hours reduce exponentially.

commonly
batteries are listed at the 20 hour discharge capacity C/20, which
inflates the value. If your rate is C/5, then you won't get the same
output.

My idea of having this analyzer is indeed to get an accurate assessment
of used batteries.

You be better reading V(voltage) & s Hg(? specific Gravity) and
consulting some of the various chart for that particular brand/model
looking for a multi point match on one of the charts.
Click to expand...

You can't do that with sealed type batteries, and most of the batteries
nowadays are like that.
You can't check the voltage cell by cell, you can't check specific gravity
of the electrolyte either.
That's where the conductance analyzer comes handy.
It's a device that's known to yield good, accurate readings.

The load tester isn't an accurate way of doing that.
That because higher AH batteries usually pass the typical load tester
test, even though in reality it can be half dead already.

Most DD batteries give good Open Circuit voltage when they are freshly
charged, but allow them to sit for 24 hours and you get a truer reading.
Click to expand...

What is a DD battery?

One method is using a volt meter and an ammeter and just take periodic
readings as it discharges into a known load.
Click to expand...

I agree. But, that's not practical when you purchase a battery, brand new or
used.

The other method is for when you can not sit there for hours, is to rig
up something like Voltage cut off that provides power to a known load and
timer. recharge at the end of each voltage cut off. Not as quick, but it
has the benefit that it is doing a more thorough test.
Click to expand...

Yep, but not practical before purchasing the battery.

My 2c is that bottom line I want it to do something and the easiest way
is to set it to doing as close to that as I can and just observe the
result. I've never had much luck mixing various used batteries for heavy
loads.
Click to expand...

Yes,. It's known to dramatically reduce the battery life. Even though they
are the same voltage, different capacity batteries connected together
is a bad idea, whether they are lead acid, NiCd, LiIon or non-rechargeable.

I just tend to dig deep and buy new stuff for critical needs like
the camp fridge/freezer and use unknowns for lighting, or powering the
lap top or old incaandescent flood lights.
Click to expand...

Good new batteries(deep cycle) aren't cheap. I'm trying the idea of using a
good(but cheaper) battery analyzer and get hold of two to four equal
capacity used batteries for those needs.
Since, I don't need brand new deep cycle or hybrid batteries that need to
last five+ years, getting cheaper, used batteris in good condition is a good
way for me to go for the time being, until I can
afford good quality brand new batteries.
 
"Jasen Betts" <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:mat31c$dl0$4@gonzo.reversiblemaps.ath.cx...
On 2015-02-04, Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
I've come across these two online stores based in mainland China.

http://www.carsets.co.uk/

http://www.aliexpress.com/

first one can work without having to open an account and email
verification
and also works with paypal.
Second one need an account, like amazon & need account verification via
email, but doesn't work with paypal.

I'm pretty sure http://www.aliexpress.com/ is legit and has been around
for
a while, but I'm not comfortable punching in credit card details into
their
'secure' web page(doesn't work with paypal)
It's apparently a subsidiary http://www.alibaba.com/ which works for
retail+wholesale quick purchases. If that's the case, I'm not sure about
the
reason for not supporting paypal!!!

having to pay paypal fees would increase costs. The fact that paypal
is owned by ebay may have something to do with it too.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with you on that.
It looks like I'm wrong about paypal being the most secure online payment
method of all.
I already knew it's not the cheapest.

http://www.carsets.co.uk/ supports paypal, but seems too easy overall and
can't find any reviews on internet about their legitimacy.
Even though it looks like a UK online shopping mall, it's actually based
in
Beijing, China. It claims delivery via DHL in 3-5 working days, which
sounds
too good to be true.

Element 14 manages overnight delivery from Australia to NZ cities
China to UK is only 20 or so hours further by air.
Click to expand...

It's just about the same from China to Aus. But, still we don't get DHL
items in two to three days.
Or do we?!

Their prices beat http://www.aliexpress.com/ by a good percentage.

Can you guys please advice me whether these two sites(especially
http://www.carsets.co.uk ) is legit or not?!

Aliexpress is legit, they do their own paypal style escrow - they hold
your money until you say you're satisfied, only then does the vendor
get paid. else you can get a refund.
Click to expand...

Yes, I' ve been told. I agree.

How about carsets.co.uk???!!
Their prices are unbeatable as well as claimed delivery time.
But, is it real or fake?
 
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:maums1$nto$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"news13" <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:maskoe$q67$9@dont-email.me...
On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 18:41:53 +1100, Damian wrote:


Even with CCA reading, you need to punch in the claimed CCA rating
to get an accurate reading of the battery's current CCA reading.

CCA is a short term reading, the battery can provide it or not.
So, having to enter the claimed AH rating isn't an issue, as long
as the detected current AH rating is accurate enough.to assess the
battery's current capacity.

With Amp/Ht, the capacitry varies with discharge rates.

Yes, I've been aware of that. 100 AH battery gives 20 hours if 5amp
is drawn from it continuously.
But, doesn't give 10 hours if 10 amp is drawn from it, rather it's
more like 5 hours.
The more amps drawn from it, the hours reduce exponentially.

commonly
batteries are listed at the 20 hour discharge capacity C/20, which
inflates the value. If your rate is C/5, then you won't get the same
output.

My idea of having this analyzer is indeed to get an accurate
assessment of used batteries.

You be better reading V(voltage) & s Hg(? specific Gravity) and
consulting some of the various chart for that particular brand/model
looking for a multi point match on one of the charts.

You can't do that with sealed type batteries, and most of the
batteries nowadays are like that.
You can't check the voltage cell by cell, you can't check specific
gravity of the electrolyte either.
That's where the conductance analyzer comes handy.
It's a device that's known to yield good, accurate readings.


The load tester isn't an accurate way of doing that.
That because higher AH batteries usually pass the typical load
tester test, even though in reality it can be half dead already.

Most DD batteries give good Open Circuit voltage when they are
freshly charged, but allow them to sit for 24 hours and you get a
truer reading.

What is a DD battery?


One method is using a volt meter and an ammeter and just take
periodic readings as it discharges into a known load.

I agree. But, that's not practical when you purchase a battery, brand
new or used.


The other method is for when you can not sit there for hours, is to rig
up something like Voltage cut off that provides power to a known
load and timer. recharge at the end of each voltage cut off. Not as
quick, but it has the benefit that it is doing a more thorough test.

Yep, but not practical before purchasing the battery.


My 2c is that bottom line I want it to do something and the easiest
way is to set it to doing as close to that as I can and just observe
the result. I've never had much luck mixing various used batteries
for heavy loads.

Yes,. It's known to dramatically reduce the battery life. Even though
they are the same voltage, different capacity batteries connected
together is a bad idea, whether they are lead acid, NiCd, LiIon or
non-rechargeable.
I just tend to dig deep and buy new stuff for critical needs like
the camp fridge/freezer and use unknowns for lighting, or powering
the lap top or old incaandescent flood lights.

Good new batteries(deep cycle) aren't cheap. I'm trying the idea of
using a good(but cheaper) battery analyzer and get hold of two to
four equal capacity used batteries for those needs.
Since, I don't need brand new deep cycle or hybrid batteries that
need to last five+ years, getting cheaper, used batteris in good
condition is a good way for me to go for the time being, until I can
afford good quality brand new batteries.

The only way to measue A/h rating is to charge/discharge and record
current over time. No electronic gizmo is going to give you an accurate
(or even close to accurate) A/h reading if it doesn't do that - which
takes time.
Click to expand...

I agree that's the best way, but not practical.
How do those electronic gimmos give accurate reading of CCA?
The battery analyzer doesn't exactly cold crank the battery to find the
current CCA of the battery, nevertheless claims to
produce accurate reading of CCA of any battery, charged or partially
charges/discharged.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
Click to expand...

What is the DSM?

> David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

Is David a catholic?! ;-)
 
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cjfiu4F7p1cU1@mid.individual.net...
"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:mas3c3$i4e$1@dont-email.me...

"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:mas2u1$bgm$1@dont-email.me...
I've come across these two online stores based in mainland China.

http://www.carsets.co.uk/

http://www.aliexpress.com/

first one can work without having to open an account and email
verification and also works with paypal.
Second one need an account, like amazon & need account verification via
email, but doesn't work with paypal.

I'm pretty sure http://www.aliexpress.com/ is legit and has been around
for a while, but I'm not comfortable punching in credit card details
into their 'secure' web page(doesn't work with paypal)
It's apparently a subsidiary http://www.alibaba.com/ which works for
retail+wholesale quick purchases. If that's the case, I'm not sure about
the reason for not supporting paypal!!!

http://www.carsets.co.uk/ supports paypal, but seems too easy overall
and can't find any reviews on internet about their legitimacy.
Even though it looks like a UK online shopping mall, it's actually based
in Beijing, China. It claims delivery via DHL in 3-5 working days, which
sounds too good to be true.
Their prices beat http://www.aliexpress.com/ by a good percentage.

Can you guys please advice me whether these two sites(especially
http://www.carsets.co.uk ) is legit or not?!

I'm about to place couple of orders via them, which are not too cheap
and I would love to hear the experience of usenet monkeys out there with
these two websites and more.

BTW, I'm purchaing some electronic gear, which includes Lead acid
battery analyzers(namely MST A600, MST 8000+ , etc etc).

Thanks

BTW, I'm not looking at fleabay, 'cos I need the stuff delivered quickly
via DHL or similar. ebay sellers from China don't do that.

A few do. But there are many more who do on aliexpress.
Click to expand...

None of them do the items I'm after via DHL.
Express postage they provide on ebay from China is more expensive than the
item itself.

The other thing I forgot to say is that there is some weirdity with the
sort on prices button on aliexpress that I only noticed yesterday. The
number of hits drops dramatically. Not clear if that’s a new bug or its
always done that, I haven't noticed it before.
Click to expand...

Yes, I experienced something similar to that.
The same item has two prices on two separate windows.
I didn't bother to look into it any further, but I still have them
bookmarked.
I'll check if the discrepancy is still there.
 
"Bob Milutinovic" <cognicom@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:matfa8$5no$1@cognicom.eternal-september.org...
"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:mat73a$33t$1@dont-email.me...

"Jasen Betts" <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:mat31c$dl0$4@gonzo.reversiblemaps.ath.cx...
On 2015-02-04, Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
I've come across these two online stores based in mainland China.

http://www.carsets.co.uk/

http://www.aliexpress.com/

first one can work without having to open an account and email
verification
and also works with paypal.
Second one need an account, like amazon & need account verification via
email, but doesn't work with paypal.

I'm pretty sure http://www.aliexpress.com/ is legit and has been around
for
a while, but I'm not comfortable punching in credit card details into
their
'secure' web page(doesn't work with paypal)
It's apparently a subsidiary http://www.alibaba.com/ which works for
retail+wholesale quick purchases. If that's the case, I'm not sure
about the
reason for not supporting paypal!!!

having to pay paypal fees would increase costs. The fact that paypal
is owned by ebay may have something to do with it too.

I have to agree with you on that.
It looks like I'm wrong about paypal being the most secure online payment
method of all.
I already knew it's not the cheapest.


http://www.carsets.co.uk/ supports paypal, but seems too easy overall
and
can't find any reviews on internet about their legitimacy.
Even though it looks like a UK online shopping mall, it's actually
based in
Beijing, China. It claims delivery via DHL in 3-5 working days, which
sounds
too good to be true.

Element 14 manages overnight delivery from Australia to NZ cities
China to UK is only 20 or so hours further by air.

It's just about the same from China to Aus. But, still we don't get DHL
items in two to three days.
Or do we?!

I've only recently received two deliveries using DHL - one arrived three
days after ordering, the other four days because the driver was running
late on his rounds (the DHL web site said it was with the driver on the
morning of the day before he delivered it).
Click to expand...

I bet they weren't ebay orders!
Aliexpress, right?!

I've found DHL to be quicker than FedEx because the latter seems to leave
packages for longer in their customs clearance centre once in Australia.
Click to expand...

And funnily enough, FedSex charges more as well.
 
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cjfjjeF7ugcU1@mid.individual.net...
"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:mat73a$33t$1@dont-email.me...

"Jasen Betts" <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:mat31c$dl0$4@gonzo.reversiblemaps.ath.cx...
On 2015-02-04, Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
I've come across these two online stores based in mainland China.

http://www.carsets.co.uk/

http://www.aliexpress.com/

first one can work without having to open an account and email
verification
and also works with paypal.
Second one need an account, like amazon & need account verification via
email, but doesn't work with paypal.

I'm pretty sure http://www.aliexpress.com/ is legit and has been around
for
a while, but I'm not comfortable punching in credit card details into
their
'secure' web page(doesn't work with paypal)
It's apparently a subsidiary http://www.alibaba.com/ which works for
retail+wholesale quick purchases. If that's the case, I'm not sure
about the
reason for not supporting paypal!!!

having to pay paypal fees would increase costs. The fact that paypal
is owned by ebay may have something to do with it too.

I have to agree with you on that.
It looks like I'm wrong about paypal being the most secure online payment
method of all.
I already knew it's not the cheapest.


http://www.carsets.co.uk/ supports paypal, but seems too easy overall
and
can't find any reviews on internet about their legitimacy.
Even though it looks like a UK online shopping mall, it's actually
based in
Beijing, China. It claims delivery via DHL in 3-5 working days, which
sounds
too good to be true.

Element 14 manages overnight delivery from Australia to NZ cities
China to UK is only 20 or so hours further by air.

It's just about the same from China to Aus. But, still we don't get DHL
items in two to three days.
Or do we?!


Their prices beat http://www.aliexpress.com/ by a good percentage.

Can you guys please advice me whether these two sites(especially
http://www.carsets.co.uk ) is legit or not?!

Aliexpress is legit, they do their own paypal style escrow - they hold
your money until you say you're satisfied, only then does the vendor
get paid. else you can get a refund.

Yes, I' ve been told. I agree.

How about carsets.co.uk???!!
Their prices are unbeatable as well as claimed delivery time.
But, is it real or fake?

One way to find out is to buy something that doesn’t matter if it’s a
fake.

But since you don’t like the month or so delivery, that’s not going

to tell you quickly or you risk losing the substantial DHL fee.
Click to expand...

Yeah,
I prefer to ask around here and then check the seller ratings and make my
own move after that.
I wouldn't wanna order anything from http://www.carsets.co.uk without
hearing something positive about their legitimacy from somebody.
DHL fee is no cheaper than $20 for anything, unless the seller screw with
the postage fee by inflating the item price and charging couple of dollar
for DHL fee.
 
"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:mavl81$ls2$1@dont-email.me...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cjfiu4F7p1cU1@mid.individual.net...


"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:mas3c3$i4e$1@dont-email.me...

"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:mas2u1$bgm$1@dont-email.me...
I've come across these two online stores based in mainland China.

http://www.carsets.co.uk/

http://www.aliexpress.com/

first one can work without having to open an account and email
verification and also works with paypal.
Second one need an account, like amazon & need account verification via
email, but doesn't work with paypal.

I'm pretty sure http://www.aliexpress.com/ is legit and has been around
for a while, but I'm not comfortable punching in credit card details
into their 'secure' web page(doesn't work with paypal)
It's apparently a subsidiary http://www.alibaba.com/ which works for
retail+wholesale quick purchases. If that's the case, I'm not sure
about the reason for not supporting paypal!!!

http://www.carsets.co.uk/ supports paypal, but seems too easy overall
and can't find any reviews on internet about their legitimacy.
Even though it looks like a UK online shopping mall, it's actually
based in Beijing, China. It claims delivery via DHL in 3-5 working
days, which sounds too good to be true.
Their prices beat http://www.aliexpress.com/ by a good percentage.

Can you guys please advice me whether these two sites(especially
http://www.carsets.co.uk ) is legit or not?!

I'm about to place couple of orders via them, which are not too cheap
and I would love to hear the experience of usenet monkeys out there
with these two websites and more.

BTW, I'm purchaing some electronic gear, which includes Lead acid
battery analyzers(namely MST A600, MST 8000+ , etc etc).

Thanks

BTW, I'm not looking at fleabay, 'cos I need the stuff delivered quickly
via DHL or similar. ebay sellers from China don't do that.

A few do. But there are many more who do on aliexpress.

None of them do the items I'm after via DHL.
Express postage they provide on ebay from China is more expensive than the
item itself.


The other thing I forgot to say is that there is some weirdity with the
sort on prices button on aliexpress that I only noticed yesterday. The
number of hits drops dramatically. Not clear if that’s a new bug or its
always done that, I haven't noticed it before.

Yes, I experienced something similar to that.
Click to expand...

Sorting by price on AliExpress has always had that problem (since at least
2010 when I started using it). In the past six or so months it's actually
gotten a little better, but still pretty pathetic.

Can't expect much though, considering the search algorithm was written by
Yahoo.

> The same item has two prices on two separate windows.

Two very real possibilities there;

1. Different sellers offering the same product at different prices,

2. The same seller offering the same product at different prices. There're
plenty of sellers who'll "try it on," offering the same product at perhaps
double the price, hoping someone unsuspecting will wander in and simply buy
the first instance of a product they see without searching for a better
price. The same sort of antics happen on eBay too.

--
Bob Milutinovic
Cognicom
 
"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:mavle2$mhk$1@dont-email.me...
"Bob Milutinovic" <cognicom@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:matfa8$5no$1@cognicom.eternal-september.org...
"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:mat73a$33t$1@dont-email.me...

"Jasen Betts" <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:mat31c$dl0$4@gonzo.reversiblemaps.ath.cx...
On 2015-02-04, Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
I've come across these two online stores based in mainland China.

http://www.carsets.co.uk/

http://www.aliexpress.com/

first one can work without having to open an account and email
verification
and also works with paypal.
Second one need an account, like amazon & need account verification
via
email, but doesn't work with paypal.

I'm pretty sure http://www.aliexpress.com/ is legit and has been
around for
a while, but I'm not comfortable punching in credit card details into
their
'secure' web page(doesn't work with paypal)
It's apparently a subsidiary http://www.alibaba.com/ which works for
retail+wholesale quick purchases. If that's the case, I'm not sure
about the
reason for not supporting paypal!!!

having to pay paypal fees would increase costs. The fact that paypal
is owned by ebay may have something to do with it too.

I have to agree with you on that.
It looks like I'm wrong about paypal being the most secure online
payment method of all.
I already knew it's not the cheapest.


http://www.carsets.co.uk/ supports paypal, but seems too easy overall
and
can't find any reviews on internet about their legitimacy.
Even though it looks like a UK online shopping mall, it's actually
based in
Beijing, China. It claims delivery via DHL in 3-5 working days, which
sounds
too good to be true.

Element 14 manages overnight delivery from Australia to NZ cities
China to UK is only 20 or so hours further by air.

It's just about the same from China to Aus. But, still we don't get DHL
items in two to three days.
Or do we?!

I've only recently received two deliveries using DHL - one arrived three
days after ordering, the other four days because the driver was running
late on his rounds (the DHL web site said it was with the driver on the
morning of the day before he delivered it).

I bet they weren't ebay orders!
Aliexpress, right?!
Click to expand...

Yep. Deals arranged "in real time" through AliExpress's messaging system and
shipped within an hour of me making the payment.

I've found DHL to be quicker than FedEx because the latter seems to leave
packages for longer in their customs clearance centre once in Australia.

And funnily enough, FedSex charges more as well.
Click to expand...

Septic companies are charged a warmongering tax (someone has to pay for
their massive war efforts); German companies aren't ;-)

FedEx actually do have a cheaper "priority" (ha!) service, which is utterly
useless - they use their own network to land the package Australia, then
give it to Australia Post to process & deliver it. Slower than EMS and still
more expensive.

--
Bob Milutinovic
Cognicom
 
On Fri, 06 Feb 2015 08:45:31 +1100, Damian wrote:

"news13" <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:maulom$qto$1@dont-email.me...
On Thu, 05 Feb 2015 00:28:26 +1100, Damian wrote:

Yes, I've been aware of that. 100 AH battery gives 20 hours if 5amp is
drawn from it continuously.
But, doesn't give 10 hours if 10 amp is drawn from it, rather it's
more like 5 hours.

That doesn't sound like a good brand of battery to me. OTOH, I tend to
buy the Trojan brand. Oh, all wet cells.

No, I was referring to the known fact that more amps we draw from deep
cycle batteries, quicker they tend to discharge.
I obviously exaggerated the figures a bit above.
But, it's fact that 100AH rated battery can give 20 hours if 5amp is
drawn, but doesn't give 10 hours if 10 amp is drawn, in reality it's
less than 10 hours.
I reckon somewhere between 5-10 hours(more like 7.5).
There's a formula to calculate that, but I've got idea how to use it.
Click to expand...

It varies with they type. SLA are the worst, AGM I have no idea, but I'd
expect they are still second worst, then wet cells, then Nicad, then all
the others. Some one was saying the LiPoly(?) are 1C for charge, so it
would be that much for them. You get what you pay for. It is about buying
a battery fit for purpose.


At the moment I'm stuck with used deep cycles. I will be able to spend
big $$ one day and purchase good namebrand ones.
Click to expand...

Brand model and claimed prior use?

I use a three stage smart charger, which is a 20 amp one.
It's possible to charge a deep cycle in four hours to it's full
capacity. But, it may be true the lifespan of the battery may be
affected.
Click to expand...

IMR, it is true. Find the chart for the brand model.


Slow charge that spans four twenty four hours has always been a bettery
way.
But, the newer smart chargers claims the muti-stage charging is quicker
and can increase the battery life as well.
Click to expand...

Depends on the charger. My rule of thumb is that you are going to spend
as much on the charger as the battery itself. So long as your smart
charger is for the right type, it has to be better than the old set and
fgorget car battery charger.
Yep, those batteries are expensive. Especially, 6V ones, as they're not
as common as 12V ones.
Click to expand...

I purchased 6V because it wasn't possible for me to lift the equivalent
12V battery. Outside common use, like car batteries, they are all
relatively expensive.
>
 
"news13" <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:mb3tf6$bon$12@dont-email.me...
On Fri, 06 Feb 2015 08:45:31 +1100, Damian wrote:

"news13" <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:maulom$qto$1@dont-email.me...
On Thu, 05 Feb 2015 00:28:26 +1100, Damian wrote:

Yes, I've been aware of that. 100 AH battery gives 20 hours if 5amp is
drawn from it continuously.
But, doesn't give 10 hours if 10 amp is drawn from it, rather it's
more like 5 hours.

That doesn't sound like a good brand of battery to me. OTOH, I tend to
buy the Trojan brand. Oh, all wet cells.

No, I was referring to the known fact that more amps we draw from deep
cycle batteries, quicker they tend to discharge.
I obviously exaggerated the figures a bit above.
But, it's fact that 100AH rated battery can give 20 hours if 5amp is
drawn, but doesn't give 10 hours if 10 amp is drawn, in reality it's
less than 10 hours.
I reckon somewhere between 5-10 hours(more like 7.5).
There's a formula to calculate that, but I've got idea how to use it.
Click to expand...

I mean to say "I've got (no) idea" how to use the mathematical formula, as I
didn't bother to try it.

It varies with they type. SLA are the worst, AGM I have no idea, but I'd
expect they are still second worst, then wet cells, then Nicad, then all
the others. Some one was saying the LiPoly(?) are 1C for charge, so it
would be that much for them.
Click to expand...

I prefer AGMs for deep cycle batteries. It's bit tricky with sales gimmicks
these days.
Hard to ascertain which one is AGM and which one is not.
And some lower end AGMs aren't that good.

>You get what you pay for.

It's definitely true for brand new batteries. For secondhands, that's
another story. Luck plays a part as well.

It is about buying
a battery fit for purpose.
Click to expand...


At the moment I'm stuck with used deep cycles. I will be able to spend
big $$ one day and purchase good namebrand ones.

Brand model and claimed prior use?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understood the question(hoping it is a question). I'll try to
answer anyway.
Yuasa come to my mind as a Japanese brand, and generally I trust all the
Japanese made batteries.
American brands are generally good as well, but they're comparatively more
expensive.
I can't quote brand names ouf of the top of my head right now, but it's in
my head, somewhere.

I use a three stage smart charger, which is a 20 amp one.
It's possible to charge a deep cycle in four hours to it's full
capacity. But, it may be true the lifespan of the battery may be
affected.

IMR, it is true. Find the chart for the brand model.
Click to expand...

Trying to charge a battery in 2-3 hours using a traditional charger(using
24V instead of 12V), invariably damages the battery and reduces it's
lifespan.
In the old days, before the introduction of smart chargers, we used to do
that, just to save time.
And the effect wasn't that bad, because it was done for car batteries, not
deep cycle batteries.
Car batteries are cheaper than deep cycle batteries & they get replaced
every three years or so, whereas deep cycles are expected to last 5-10 years
for the price we pay.
Nowadays, the gap has come lot closer, because we have many Chinese made
deep cycle batteries for the same price as car batteries, but,
I have reservations about the lifespan of these cheaper deep cycles. None of
them seem to last anywhere near 10 years, let alone five years.

The claim of smart charging is that it actually extends the battery life by
charging a battery to it's full capacity(100% as oppose to 90% by
traditional linear charging).
http://batteryuniversity.com/ has some literature about that.
I do believe smart charging is better than slower(24 hour to 48 hour)
charging.
But, I can't say I know all the facts behind it. I take the popular
scientific literature about it for it's face value.
After all, all the smart chargers switch to a "float charging" phase in the
end of the charging cycle, which is in practice may not be different than 48
hour slow charging process.

Slow charge that spans four twenty four hours has always been a bettery
way.
But, the newer smart chargers claims the muti-stage charging is quicker
and can increase the battery life as well.

Depends on the charger. My rule of thumb is that you are going to spend
as much on the charger as the battery itself.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, I agree. My smart charger is not a high end one, but it appears
to be doing the job.
My 4WD cranking battery seem to have more grunt, since I've started it via
smart charger, once a month for the last year or so.

So long as your smart
charger is for the right type, it has to be better than the old set and
fgorget car battery charger.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming you're still referring to smart chargers my "old set and forget
car battery charger"?!

Yep, those batteries are expensive. Especially, 6V ones, as they're not
as common as 12V ones.

I purchased 6V because it wasn't possible for me to lift the equivalent
12V battery. Outside common use, like car batteries, they are all
relatively expensive.
Click to expand...

Have you considered purchasing a forklift? Or a secondhand bodybuilder
chick wife?! ;-)
 
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:maums1$nto$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"news13" <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:maskoe$q67$9@dont-email.me...
On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 18:41:53 +1100, Damian wrote:


Even with CCA reading, you need to punch in the claimed CCA rating
to get an accurate reading of the battery's current CCA reading.

CCA is a short term reading, the battery can provide it or not.
So, having to enter the claimed AH rating isn't an issue, as long
as the detected current AH rating is accurate enough.to assess the
battery's current capacity.

With Amp/Ht, the capacitry varies with discharge rates.

Yes, I've been aware of that. 100 AH battery gives 20 hours if 5amp
is drawn from it continuously.
But, doesn't give 10 hours if 10 amp is drawn from it, rather it's
more like 5 hours.
The more amps drawn from it, the hours reduce exponentially.

commonly
batteries are listed at the 20 hour discharge capacity C/20, which
inflates the value. If your rate is C/5, then you won't get the
same output.

My idea of having this analyzer is indeed to get an accurate
assessment of used batteries.

You be better reading V(voltage) & s Hg(? specific Gravity) and
consulting some of the various chart for that particular
brand/model looking for a multi point match on one of the charts.

You can't do that with sealed type batteries, and most of the
batteries nowadays are like that.
You can't check the voltage cell by cell, you can't check specific
gravity of the electrolyte either.
That's where the conductance analyzer comes handy.
It's a device that's known to yield good, accurate readings.


The load tester isn't an accurate way of doing that.
That because higher AH batteries usually pass the typical load
tester test, even though in reality it can be half dead already.

Most DD batteries give good Open Circuit voltage when they are
freshly charged, but allow them to sit for 24 hours and you get a
truer reading.

What is a DD battery?


One method is using a volt meter and an ammeter and just take
periodic readings as it discharges into a known load.

I agree. But, that's not practical when you purchase a battery,
brand new or used.


The other method is for when you can not sit there for hours, is
to rig up something like Voltage cut off that provides power to a
known load and timer. recharge at the end of each voltage cut off. Not
as
quick, but it has the benefit that it is doing a more thorough
test.

Yep, but not practical before purchasing the battery.


My 2c is that bottom line I want it to do something and the easiest
way is to set it to doing as close to that as I can and just
observe the result. I've never had much luck mixing various used
batteries for heavy loads.

Yes,. It's known to dramatically reduce the battery life. Even
though they are the same voltage, different capacity batteries
connected together is a bad idea, whether they are lead acid, NiCd,
LiIon or non-rechargeable.
I just tend to dig deep and buy new stuff for critical needs like
the camp fridge/freezer and use unknowns for lighting, or powering
the lap top or old incaandescent flood lights.

Good new batteries(deep cycle) aren't cheap. I'm trying the idea of
using a good(but cheaper) battery analyzer and get hold of two to
four equal capacity used batteries for those needs.
Since, I don't need brand new deep cycle or hybrid batteries that
need to last five+ years, getting cheaper, used batteris in good
condition is a good way for me to go for the time being, until I can
afford good quality brand new batteries.

The only way to measue A/h rating is to charge/discharge and record
current over time. No electronic gizmo is going to give you an
accurate (or even close to accurate) A/h reading if it doesn't do
that - which takes time.

I agree that's the best way, but not practical.
How do those electronic gimmos give accurate reading of CCA?
The battery analyzer doesn't exactly cold crank the battery to find
the current CCA of the battery, nevertheless claims to
produce accurate reading of CCA of any battery, charged or partially
charges/discharged.
Click to expand...

It is actually much easier to measure (read; make a damn accurate estimation
of) "CCA" than to measure (or accurately estimate) available A/h. For CCA
all you need to measue is maximum available ampage and run it through a
temperature compensator algorithm - done in a couple of seconds. CCA doesn't
have a time component in the way that A/h does (the "h" means "hour") so can
be deduced very quickly.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief
has a cozy little classification in the DSM."

What is the DSM?
Click to expand...

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

Is David a catholic?! ;-)
Click to expand...

I don't know. However going by his statement quoted above if he is I'd say
that he's a 'lapsed' catholic.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
 
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mb6d7u$7o1$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mb4i5p$8de$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:maums1$nto$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"news13" <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:maskoe$q67$9@dont-email.me...
On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 18:41:53 +1100, Damian wrote:


Even with CCA reading, you need to punch in the claimed CCA
rating to get an accurate reading of the battery's current CCA
reading.

CCA is a short term reading, the battery can provide it or not.
So, having to enter the claimed AH rating isn't an issue, as
long as the detected current AH rating is accurate enough.to
assess the battery's current capacity.

With Amp/Ht, the capacitry varies with discharge rates.

Yes, I've been aware of that. 100 AH battery gives 20 hours if
5amp is drawn from it continuously.
But, doesn't give 10 hours if 10 amp is drawn from it, rather it's
more like 5 hours.
The more amps drawn from it, the hours reduce exponentially.

commonly
batteries are listed at the 20 hour discharge capacity C/20,
which inflates the value. If your rate is C/5, then you won't
get the same output.

My idea of having this analyzer is indeed to get an accurate
assessment of used batteries.

You be better reading V(voltage) & s Hg(? specific Gravity) and
consulting some of the various chart for that particular
brand/model looking for a multi point match on one of the charts.

You can't do that with sealed type batteries, and most of the
batteries nowadays are like that.
You can't check the voltage cell by cell, you can't check specific
gravity of the electrolyte either.
That's where the conductance analyzer comes handy.
It's a device that's known to yield good, accurate readings.


The load tester isn't an accurate way of doing that.
That because higher AH batteries usually pass the typical load
tester test, even though in reality it can be half dead already.

Most DD batteries give good Open Circuit voltage when they are
freshly charged, but allow them to sit for 24 hours and you get a
truer reading.

What is a DD battery?


One method is using a volt meter and an ammeter and just take
periodic readings as it discharges into a known load.

I agree. But, that's not practical when you purchase a battery,
brand new or used.


The other method is for when you can not sit there for hours, is
to rig up something like Voltage cut off that provides power to a
known load and timer. recharge at the end of each voltage cut
off. Not as
quick, but it has the benefit that it is doing a more thorough
test.

Yep, but not practical before purchasing the battery.


My 2c is that bottom line I want it to do something and the
easiest way is to set it to doing as close to that as I can and
just observe the result. I've never had much luck mixing various
used
batteries for heavy loads.

Yes,. It's known to dramatically reduce the battery life. Even
though they are the same voltage, different capacity batteries
connected together is a bad idea, whether they are lead acid,
NiCd, LiIon or non-rechargeable.
I just tend to dig deep and buy new stuff for critical needs like
the camp fridge/freezer and use unknowns for lighting, or
powering the lap top or old incaandescent flood lights.

Good new batteries(deep cycle) aren't cheap. I'm trying the idea
of using a good(but cheaper) battery analyzer and get hold of two
to four equal capacity used batteries for those needs.
Since, I don't need brand new deep cycle or hybrid batteries that
need to last five+ years, getting cheaper, used batteris in good
condition is a good way for me to go for the time being, until I
can afford good quality brand new batteries.

The only way to measue A/h rating is to charge/discharge and record
current over time. No electronic gizmo is going to give you an
accurate (or even close to accurate) A/h reading if it doesn't do
that - which takes time.

I agree that's the best way, but not practical.
How do those electronic gimmos give accurate reading of CCA?
The battery analyzer doesn't exactly cold crank the battery to find
the current CCA of the battery, nevertheless claims to
produce accurate reading of CCA of any battery, charged or partially
charges/discharged.

It is actually much easier to measure (read; make a damn accurate
estimation of) "CCA" than to measure (or accurately estimate)
available A/h. For CCA all you need to measue is maximum available
ampage

How does a puny little battery analyzer measure the maximum available
amperage?
Apparently by inductance method by shooting pulses of certain
frequency. It measure the internal resistance of the cells and deduce the
CCA
accordingly(but not AH)

Yes, a fairly simple process.

Yet, still no way to accurately estimate the battery capacity(AH) by
finding the internal resistance of the cells.

No because the internal resitance of the cells changes depending on the
state of charge. Without discharging the battery down to 10.5v (the end of
it's capacity according to the widely accepted A/h standard) and recording
the internal resistance a various points it's impossible to know it for
any given battery. However if you're going to do that then you might as
well simply measure the A/h of the battery rather than base a calculation
on internal resistance.

As I've been saying there's no accurate way to reliably measure the
capacity of a lead acid battery in A/h without discharging it at an
estimated I/20 (perhaps adjusting the estimation of I/20 based on voltage
drop and internal resistance so that the process does take 20 hours to
deplete the battery to 10.5v) for 20 hours and recording the current.

Any device that purports to give an A/h rating in minutes, without doing
the above is merely estimating the A/h available and could well be off by
an order of magnitude - especially with used batteries.

Nevertheless it gives some good idea about the CCA.
Unforunately for me, a good CCA reading doesn't necessarily mean a
good AH capacity.

As is to be expected as they're two different, only slightly related
things.

For a deep cycle, AH is all that matters. If the AH capacity is good,
it's almost a good indication CCAs are good as well, but not the case
vice versa. Apparently testers that can produce a good estimation of
the capacity(AH) are available, but not likely for the price range
suitable for me.

Any tester that claims to measure A/h rating and doesn't take 20+ hours to
do it is, as you say, estimating. If the estimation process doesn't take
at least an hour of heavy discharging and doesn't involve checking the
specifiic gravity (at minimum) of the electrolyte several times over the
process could be massively off in it's estimation.
Click to expand...

The problem is, even if I have time and access to the secondhand battery(or
new for that matter) to discharge it for 20 hours,
there's very little chance to measure spec gravity of the electrolyte, 'cos
most of the deep cycles these days are sealed.

Actually even doing those things it could still be off by quite a lot but
would give you a rough idea.

IOW buying second-hand deep-cycle lead acid batteries without doung at
least one charge / discharge cycle is a crap-shoot.
Click to expand...

I would love to not to agree with that, but I'm afraid you're right on that.
Successfully crap-shooting is something I've been fairly good at so far,
statistically, producing around 85% economically productive results.
Dunno about the future though, I may crap it one day, who knows!

>You can improve your odds by using gizmos

Just wondering, I have a load tester( a standard one meant for 12V car
batteries).
Since any of the hi-tech gizmos won't give me a correct idea about AH, but
CCA, I'm just wondering whether the load tester's result is overall gives a
better
estimation of the 'capacity' of the battery than the 'soft' CCA reading of
the hi-tech gizmo!
In other words,
Am I wasting my money by purchasing a hundred dollar midium end gizmo to
find a CCA reading, when I can get a similar result(but not actuall CCA
reading) by
a load tester?
For example, if a battery is fully charged, a load tester can give some good
idea about whether the batteyr is going to die soon or not.
A gizmo on the other hand, can produce a good CCA rating of a partially
stuffed up battery if it fully charged(or can it)??!!

Overall, my question is that whether these gizmos are worth any money?
Most battery sellers(brand new battery sellers for the most part) do have
hi-tech gizmos these days, obviously to show customers that the new battery
has the CCA rating it
claims to be.
But, are they necessary for us mere mortals?! We(I) only need a gizmo to
check the available CCA(or AH) of a secondhand battery,
and any gizmo doesn't seem to be giving me an accurate idea on CCA(or AH),
whether the secondhand battery is good or not.
What's your opinion on that?

and hydrometers but it's still a gamble. Unless you're getting an awesome
bargain (and then you'd need to know /why/ it was...) IMO you're better off
buying new and having a warranty. Unless the previous owner is the owner of
a superyacht or similiar and the batteries are being replaced on a time
schedule and may be essentially un-used most sellers are selling due to
needing a new one....
Click to expand...

Hmmm, you've given me food for thought.

Such battery analyzers are almost certainly cost more than a deep
cycle battery at the moment, but that will change in the near future,
I hope. I'm hoping the claimed AH measurement of the MST A-600 analyzer
is
true. It's a relatively cheaper battery analyzer, but no reviews on
the internet about it's accuracy.

and run it through a temperature compensator algorithm - done in a
couple of seconds. CCA doesn't have a time component in the way that
A/h does (the "h" means "hour") so can be deduced very quickly.

Yes, CCA amps expected to last no more than half a minute or so.
That's pretty much all of the time component in it.

I meant to include this link in my last reply but was interrupted by a
visitor so finished it up quickly;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery#Terms_and_ratings
That gives you the accepted definition of CCA.
Click to expand...

Yep, I read that.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief
has a cozy little classification in the DSM."

What is the DSM?

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

DSMMD?!


The American Psychiatric Assosoation use the acronym 'DSM' and it's widely
known and used in the medical field.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. I haven't referred to that manual yet, and hoping I won't have to.
;-)

David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

No idea who the bloke is. He got no reviews.


He's just (?) some guy who used to post in rec.autos.formula.1 and who
said "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief
has a cozy little classification in the DSM." in an OT thread in that
newsgroup once. It happens to be something I agree with and so I asked him
if I could quote him.
Click to expand...

I agree with it as well, but that's not important, the quote will be true
regardless of my opinion about it.
It's already true according Prof Dawkins.

Not all quotes are by Winston Churchill or Nietzsche. '
Click to expand...

Nietzsche had said(wrote) lot of sensible things before he went crazy due to
illness.
I can't remember Churchill saying anything sensible, unless he borrowed it
from somewhere else.
One of those 'funny' characters revered for 'funny' political reasons,
thanks to the timing of WW2.

..>Ordinary' people also
> say quotable things sometimes.

Quotable things being said by elites are actually based on ordinary people,
sometimes borrowing the life experience of ordinary people.

--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
Click to expand...
 
"news13" <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:mb6hol$8vd$17@dont-email.me...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 03:54:53 +1100, Damian wrote:


How does a puny little battery analyzer measure the maximum available
amperage?

Estimate based on internal resistance?
If the internal resistance has grown to 1 ohm, then you can only get
12Amps max from a starter batter. Basic V=IR transformation calc.
Click to expand...

Yes, I thought that's what I was referring to. Internal resistance grows as
the battery ages, as the permanent sulfation occurs over time.
 
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mb6d7u$7o1$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mb4i5p$8de$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:maums1$nto$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"news13" <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:maskoe$q67$9@dont-email.me...
On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 18:41:53 +1100, Damian wrote:


Even with CCA reading, you need to punch in the claimed CCA
rating to get an accurate reading of the battery's current CCA
reading.

CCA is a short term reading, the battery can provide it or not.
So, having to enter the claimed AH rating isn't an issue, as
long as the detected current AH rating is accurate enough.to
assess the battery's current capacity.

With Amp/Ht, the capacitry varies with discharge rates.

Yes, I've been aware of that. 100 AH battery gives 20 hours if
5amp is drawn from it continuously.
But, doesn't give 10 hours if 10 amp is drawn from it, rather
it's more like 5 hours.
The more amps drawn from it, the hours reduce exponentially.

commonly
batteries are listed at the 20 hour discharge capacity C/20,
which inflates the value. If your rate is C/5, then you won't
get the same output.

My idea of having this analyzer is indeed to get an accurate
assessment of used batteries.

You be better reading V(voltage) & s Hg(? specific Gravity) and
consulting some of the various chart for that particular
brand/model looking for a multi point match on one of the
charts.

You can't do that with sealed type batteries, and most of the
batteries nowadays are like that.
You can't check the voltage cell by cell, you can't check
specific gravity of the electrolyte either.
That's where the conductance analyzer comes handy.
It's a device that's known to yield good, accurate readings.


The load tester isn't an accurate way of doing that.
That because higher AH batteries usually pass the typical load
tester test, even though in reality it can be half dead
already.

Most DD batteries give good Open Circuit voltage when they are
freshly charged, but allow them to sit for 24 hours and you
get a truer reading.

What is a DD battery?


One method is using a volt meter and an ammeter and just take
periodic readings as it discharges into a known load.

I agree. But, that's not practical when you purchase a battery,
brand new or used.


The other method is for when you can not sit there for hours,
is to rig up something like Voltage cut off that provides
power to a known load and timer. recharge at the end of each
voltage cut off. Not as
quick, but it has the benefit that it is doing a more thorough
test.

Yep, but not practical before purchasing the battery.


My 2c is that bottom line I want it to do something and the
easiest way is to set it to doing as close to that as I can and
just observe the result. I've never had much luck mixing
various used
batteries for heavy loads.

Yes,. It's known to dramatically reduce the battery life. Even
though they are the same voltage, different capacity batteries
connected together is a bad idea, whether they are lead acid,
NiCd, LiIon or non-rechargeable.
I just tend to dig deep and buy new stuff for critical needs
like the camp fridge/freezer and use unknowns for lighting, or
powering the lap top or old incaandescent flood lights.

Good new batteries(deep cycle) aren't cheap. I'm trying the idea
of using a good(but cheaper) battery analyzer and get hold of
two to four equal capacity used batteries for those needs.
Since, I don't need brand new deep cycle or hybrid batteries
that need to last five+ years, getting cheaper, used batteris
in good condition is a good way for me to go for the time
being, until I can afford good quality brand new batteries.

The only way to measue A/h rating is to charge/discharge and
record current over time. No electronic gizmo is going to give
you an accurate (or even close to accurate) A/h reading if it
doesn't do that - which takes time.

I agree that's the best way, but not practical.
How do those electronic gimmos give accurate reading of CCA?
The battery analyzer doesn't exactly cold crank the battery to
find the current CCA of the battery, nevertheless claims to
produce accurate reading of CCA of any battery, charged or
partially charges/discharged.

It is actually much easier to measure (read; make a damn accurate
estimation of) "CCA" than to measure (or accurately estimate)
available A/h. For CCA all you need to measue is maximum available
ampage

How does a puny little battery analyzer measure the maximum
available amperage?
Apparently by inductance method by shooting pulses of certain
frequency. It measure the internal resistance of the cells and
deduce the CCA
accordingly(but not AH)

Yes, a fairly simple process.

Yet, still no way to accurately estimate the battery capacity(AH) by
finding the internal resistance of the cells.

No because the internal resitance of the cells changes depending on
the state of charge. Without discharging the battery down to 10.5v
(the end of it's capacity according to the widely accepted A/h
standard) and recording the internal resistance a various points
it's impossible to know it for any given battery. However if you're
going to do that then you might as well simply measure the A/h of
the battery rather than base a calculation on internal resistance.

As I've been saying there's no accurate way to reliably measure the
capacity of a lead acid battery in A/h without discharging it at an
estimated I/20 (perhaps adjusting the estimation of I/20 based on
voltage drop and internal resistance so that the process does take
20 hours to deplete the battery to 10.5v) for 20 hours and recording
the current. Any device that purports to give an A/h rating in minutes,
without
doing the above is merely estimating the A/h available and could
well be off by an order of magnitude - especially with used
batteries.
Nevertheless it gives some good idea about the CCA.
Unforunately for me, a good CCA reading doesn't necessarily mean a
good AH capacity.

As is to be expected as they're two different, only slightly related
things.

For a deep cycle, AH is all that matters. If the AH capacity is
good, it's almost a good indication CCAs are good as well, but not
the case vice versa. Apparently testers that can produce a good
estimation of the capacity(AH) are available, but not likely for the
price range
suitable for me.

Any tester that claims to measure A/h rating and doesn't take 20+
hours to do it is, as you say, estimating. If the estimation process
doesn't take at least an hour of heavy discharging and doesn't
involve checking the specifiic gravity (at minimum) of the
electrolyte several times over the process could be massively off in
it's estimation.

The problem is, even if I have time and access to the secondhand
battery(or new for that matter) to discharge it for 20 hours,
there's very little chance to measure spec gravity of the
electrolyte, 'cos most of the deep cycles these days are sealed.

Actually even doing those things it could still be off by quite a
lot but would give you a rough idea.

IOW buying second-hand deep-cycle lead acid batteries without doung
at least one charge / discharge cycle is a crap-shoot.

I would love to not to agree with that, but I'm afraid you're right
on that. Successfully crap-shooting is something I've been fairly
good at so far, statistically, producing around 85% economically
productive results. Dunno about the future though, I may crap it one day,
who knows!

You can improve your odds by using gizmos

Just wondering, I have a load tester( a standard one meant for 12V car
batteries).
Since any of the hi-tech gizmos won't give me a correct idea about
AH, but CCA, I'm just wondering whether the load tester's result is
overall gives a better
estimation of the 'capacity' of the battery than the 'soft' CCA
reading of the hi-tech gizmo!
In other words,
Am I wasting my money by purchasing a hundred dollar midium end gizmo
to find a CCA reading, when I can get a similar result(but not
actuall CCA reading) by
a load tester?
For example, if a battery is fully charged, a load tester can give
some good idea about whether the batteyr is going to die soon or not.
A gizmo on the other hand, can produce a good CCA rating of a
partially stuffed up battery if it fully charged(or can it)??!!
Click to expand...

I'm not au fait with the range of gizmos and load testers really. I'm of the
opinion that more information is always better but it also depends on the
cost of the information as a ratio of potential profit / savings.

I would say that a 'gizmo' can't give an accurate CCA rating if it doesn't
apply a significant load to the battery for ~15 seconds. I would say either
high end gizmo or just stick with your load tester - don't bother with a
mid-range gizmo.

Overall, my question is that whether these gizmos are worth any money?
Most battery sellers(brand new battery sellers for the most part) do
have hi-tech gizmos these days, obviously to show customers that the
new battery has the CCA rating it
claims to be.
But, are they necessary for us mere mortals?! We(I) only need a
gizmo to check the available CCA(or AH) of a secondhand battery,
and any gizmo doesn't seem to be giving me an accurate idea on CCA(or
AH), whether the secondhand battery is good or not.
What's your opinion on that?
Click to expand...

See above. A gizmo may give you an /estimated/ A/h rating (as we agree that
anything other than a full charge / discharge test is an estimation) but the
accuracy of that rating is likely to have a strong relationship with the
cost of the gizmo with diminishing returns - a flattening of the curve. And
it is *still* only an estimation and could be completely wrong.

I can't really say more than that with any authority. I've often reffered to
'Battery University' when learning about Li-Ion batteries but have never had
need to learn a lot about lead acid batteries. I don't know if you've read
this;
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/testing_deep_cycle_lead_acid_batteries ?
LOL, it probably disagrees with what I've said so far but is likely to be
more correct than I.

and hydrometers but it's still a gamble. Unless you're getting an
awesome bargain (and then you'd need to know /why/ it was...) IMO
you're better off buying new and having a warranty. Unless the
previous owner is the owner of a superyacht or similiar and the
batteries are being replaced on a time schedule and may be
essentially un-used most sellers are selling due to needing a new
one....

Hmmm, you've given me food for thought.
Click to expand...

:)

Such battery analyzers are almost certainly cost more than a deep
cycle battery at the moment, but that will change in the near
future, I hope. I'm hoping the claimed AH measurement of the MST A-600
analyzer is
true. It's a relatively cheaper battery analyzer, but no reviews on
the internet about it's accuracy.

and run it through a temperature compensator algorithm - done in a
couple of seconds. CCA doesn't have a time component in the way
that A/h does (the "h" means "hour") so can be deduced very
quickly.

Yes, CCA amps expected to last no more than half a minute or so.
That's pretty much all of the time component in it.

I meant to include this link in my last reply but was interrupted by
a visitor so finished it up quickly;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery#Terms_and_ratings
That gives you the accepted definition of CCA.

Yep, I read that.


"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious
belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM."

What is the DSM?

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

DSMMD?!


The American Psychiatric Assosoation use the acronym 'DSM' and it's
widely known and used in the medical field.

Hmmm. I haven't referred to that manual yet, and hoping I won't have
to. ;-)
Click to expand...

Indeed. All the best with that. ;)

David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

No idea who the bloke is. He got no reviews.


He's just (?) some guy who used to post in rec.autos.formula.1 and
who said "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious
belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." in an OT thread
in that newsgroup once. It happens to be something I agree with and
so I asked him if I could quote him.

I agree with it as well, but that's not important, the quote will be
true regardless of my opinion about it.
It's already true according Prof Dawkins.


Not all quotes are by Winston Churchill or Nietzsche. '

Nietzsche had said(wrote) lot of sensible things before he went crazy
due to illness.
Click to expand...

Nietzsche was a brilliant and insightful man. IMO any such person who
doesn't apply a powerful filter to this world is going to go crazy.
Nietzsche didn't develop and apply any such filter as he was studying
society - the consequences were almost inevitable.

I can't remember Churchill saying anything sensible, unless he
borrowed it from somewhere else.
Click to expand...

Churchill was a very clever man but was, more than anything else, very
quick-witted and seemed to retain his wits in almost any situation. He could
think on his feet and had the courage of his convictions. I admire both
Churchill and Nietzsche but for very different reasons.

One of those 'funny' characters revered for 'funny' political reasons,
thanks to the timing of WW2.

.>Ordinary' people also
say quotable things sometimes.

Quotable things being said by elites are actually based on ordinary
people, sometimes borrowing the life experience of ordinary people.
Click to expand...

Sometimes, depending of defintions of 'elites'.

Cheers.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
 
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mbgomh$o6h$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mb6d7u$7o1$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mb4i5p$8de$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:maums1$nto$1@dont-email.me...
Once upon a time on usenet Damian wrote:
"news13" <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:maskoe$q67$9@dont-email.me...
On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 18:41:53 +1100, Damian wrote:


Even with CCA reading, you need to punch in the claimed CCA
rating to get an accurate reading of the battery's current CCA
reading.

CCA is a short term reading, the battery can provide it or not.
So, having to enter the claimed AH rating isn't an issue, as
long as the detected current AH rating is accurate enough.to
assess the battery's current capacity.

With Amp/Ht, the capacitry varies with discharge rates.

Yes, I've been aware of that. 100 AH battery gives 20 hours if
5amp is drawn from it continuously.
But, doesn't give 10 hours if 10 amp is drawn from it, rather
it's more like 5 hours.
The more amps drawn from it, the hours reduce exponentially.

commonly
batteries are listed at the 20 hour discharge capacity C/20,
which inflates the value. If your rate is C/5, then you won't
get the same output.

My idea of having this analyzer is indeed to get an accurate
assessment of used batteries.

You be better reading V(voltage) & s Hg(? specific Gravity) and
consulting some of the various chart for that particular
brand/model looking for a multi point match on one of the
charts.

You can't do that with sealed type batteries, and most of the
batteries nowadays are like that.
You can't check the voltage cell by cell, you can't check
specific gravity of the electrolyte either.
That's where the conductance analyzer comes handy.
It's a device that's known to yield good, accurate readings.


The load tester isn't an accurate way of doing that.
That because higher AH batteries usually pass the typical load
tester test, even though in reality it can be half dead
already.

Most DD batteries give good Open Circuit voltage when they are
freshly charged, but allow them to sit for 24 hours and you
get a truer reading.

What is a DD battery?


One method is using a volt meter and an ammeter and just take
periodic readings as it discharges into a known load.

I agree. But, that's not practical when you purchase a battery,
brand new or used.


The other method is for when you can not sit there for hours,
is to rig up something like Voltage cut off that provides
power to a known load and timer. recharge at the end of each
voltage cut off. Not as
quick, but it has the benefit that it is doing a more thorough
test.

Yep, but not practical before purchasing the battery.


My 2c is that bottom line I want it to do something and the
easiest way is to set it to doing as close to that as I can and
just observe the result. I've never had much luck mixing
various used
batteries for heavy loads.

Yes,. It's known to dramatically reduce the battery life. Even
though they are the same voltage, different capacity batteries
connected together is a bad idea, whether they are lead acid,
NiCd, LiIon or non-rechargeable.
I just tend to dig deep and buy new stuff for critical needs
like the camp fridge/freezer and use unknowns for lighting, or
powering the lap top or old incaandescent flood lights.

Good new batteries(deep cycle) aren't cheap. I'm trying the idea
of using a good(but cheaper) battery analyzer and get hold of
two to four equal capacity used batteries for those needs.
Since, I don't need brand new deep cycle or hybrid batteries
that need to last five+ years, getting cheaper, used batteris
in good condition is a good way for me to go for the time
being, until I can afford good quality brand new batteries.

The only way to measue A/h rating is to charge/discharge and
record current over time. No electronic gizmo is going to give
you an accurate (or even close to accurate) A/h reading if it
doesn't do that - which takes time.

I agree that's the best way, but not practical.
How do those electronic gimmos give accurate reading of CCA?
The battery analyzer doesn't exactly cold crank the battery to
find the current CCA of the battery, nevertheless claims to
produce accurate reading of CCA of any battery, charged or
partially charges/discharged.

It is actually much easier to measure (read; make a damn accurate
estimation of) "CCA" than to measure (or accurately estimate)
available A/h. For CCA all you need to measue is maximum available
ampage

How does a puny little battery analyzer measure the maximum
available amperage?
Apparently by inductance method by shooting pulses of certain
frequency. It measure the internal resistance of the cells and
deduce the CCA
accordingly(but not AH)

Yes, a fairly simple process.

Yet, still no way to accurately estimate the battery capacity(AH) by
finding the internal resistance of the cells.

No because the internal resitance of the cells changes depending on
the state of charge. Without discharging the battery down to 10.5v
(the end of it's capacity according to the widely accepted A/h
standard) and recording the internal resistance a various points
it's impossible to know it for any given battery. However if you're
going to do that then you might as well simply measure the A/h of
the battery rather than base a calculation on internal resistance.

As I've been saying there's no accurate way to reliably measure the
capacity of a lead acid battery in A/h without discharging it at an
estimated I/20 (perhaps adjusting the estimation of I/20 based on
voltage drop and internal resistance so that the process does take
20 hours to deplete the battery to 10.5v) for 20 hours and recording
the current. Any device that purports to give an A/h rating in minutes,
without
doing the above is merely estimating the A/h available and could
well be off by an order of magnitude - especially with used
batteries.
Nevertheless it gives some good idea about the CCA.
Unforunately for me, a good CCA reading doesn't necessarily mean a
good AH capacity.

As is to be expected as they're two different, only slightly related
things.

For a deep cycle, AH is all that matters. If the AH capacity is
good, it's almost a good indication CCAs are good as well, but not
the case vice versa. Apparently testers that can produce a good
estimation of the capacity(AH) are available, but not likely for the
price range
suitable for me.

Any tester that claims to measure A/h rating and doesn't take 20+
hours to do it is, as you say, estimating. If the estimation process
doesn't take at least an hour of heavy discharging and doesn't
involve checking the specifiic gravity (at minimum) of the
electrolyte several times over the process could be massively off in
it's estimation.

The problem is, even if I have time and access to the secondhand
battery(or new for that matter) to discharge it for 20 hours,
there's very little chance to measure spec gravity of the
electrolyte, 'cos most of the deep cycles these days are sealed.

Actually even doing those things it could still be off by quite a
lot but would give you a rough idea.

IOW buying second-hand deep-cycle lead acid batteries without doung
at least one charge / discharge cycle is a crap-shoot.

I would love to not to agree with that, but I'm afraid you're right
on that. Successfully crap-shooting is something I've been fairly
good at so far, statistically, producing around 85% economically
productive results. Dunno about the future though, I may crap it one day,
who knows!

You can improve your odds by using gizmos

Just wondering, I have a load tester( a standard one meant for 12V car
batteries).
Since any of the hi-tech gizmos won't give me a correct idea about
AH, but CCA, I'm just wondering whether the load tester's result is
overall gives a better
estimation of the 'capacity' of the battery than the 'soft' CCA
reading of the hi-tech gizmo!
In other words,
Am I wasting my money by purchasing a hundred dollar midium end gizmo
to find a CCA reading, when I can get a similar result(but not
actuall CCA reading) by
a load tester?
For example, if a battery is fully charged, a load tester can give
some good idea about whether the batteyr is going to die soon or not.
A gizmo on the other hand, can produce a good CCA rating of a
partially stuffed up battery if it fully charged(or can it)??!!

I'm not au fait with the range of gizmos and load testers really. I'm of
the opinion that more information is always better but it also depends on
the cost of the information as a ratio of potential profit / savings.
Click to expand...

Load tester is around $30 on ebay. I already have a one.
Cheapest gizmos are usually around $70-100 mark, not too bad,
But, it bothers me that they can still produce a good CCA reading on a fully
charged, partially stuffed up battery.
Load tester usually won't do that, because it applies a real high amp load
to the partially stuffed battery, effectively showing some bad voltage drop
after few seconds.
eBay Australia sells a 'gizmo' that gives a CCA and battery health, lifespan
reading for around $70, and another one for around $120.
But, good high end ones are usually few hundred dollars more, the money
better off spending on a brand new battery with warranty, as you've advised
previously.

I would say that a 'gizmo' can't give an accurate CCA rating if it doesn't
apply a significant load to the battery for ~15 seconds. I would say
either high end gizmo or just stick with your load tester - don't bother
with a mid-range gizmo.
Click to expand...

Yep, I agree. I won't piss the money on those el cheapos.

Overall, my question is that whether these gizmos are worth any money?
Most battery sellers(brand new battery sellers for the most part) do
have hi-tech gizmos these days, obviously to show customers that the
new battery has the CCA rating it
claims to be.
But, are they necessary for us mere mortals?! We(I) only need a
gizmo to check the available CCA(or AH) of a secondhand battery,
and any gizmo doesn't seem to be giving me an accurate idea on CCA(or
AH), whether the secondhand battery is good or not.
What's your opinion on that?

See above. A gizmo may give you an /estimated/ A/h rating (as we agree
that anything other than a full charge / discharge test is an estimation)
but the accuracy of that rating is likely to have a strong relationship
with the cost of the gizmo with diminishing returns - a flattening of the
curve. And it is *still* only an estimation and could be completely wrong.

I can't really say more than that with any authority. I've often reffered
to 'Battery University' when learning about Li-Ion batteries but have
never had need to learn a lot about lead acid batteries. I don't know if
you've read this;
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/testing_deep_cycle_lead_acid_batteries ?
LOL, it probably disagrees with what I've said so far but is likely to be
more correct than I.
Click to expand...

Thanx. I've scanned it before, this time I read it.
Message is clear. "Don't piss money away on used batteries unless they are
dirt cheap or come with a decent warranty". :))

and hydrometers but it's still a gamble. Unless you're getting an
awesome bargain (and then you'd need to know /why/ it was...) IMO
you're better off buying new and having a warranty. Unless the
previous owner is the owner of a superyacht or similiar and the
batteries are being replaced on a time schedule and may be
essentially un-used most sellers are selling due to needing a new
one....

Hmmm, you've given me food for thought.


:)

Such battery analyzers are almost certainly cost more than a deep
cycle battery at the moment, but that will change in the near
future, I hope. I'm hoping the claimed AH measurement of the MST A-600
analyzer is
true. It's a relatively cheaper battery analyzer, but no reviews on
the internet about it's accuracy.

and run it through a temperature compensator algorithm - done in a
couple of seconds. CCA doesn't have a time component in the way
that A/h does (the "h" means "hour") so can be deduced very
quickly.

Yes, CCA amps expected to last no more than half a minute or so.
That's pretty much all of the time component in it.

I meant to include this link in my last reply but was interrupted by
a visitor so finished it up quickly;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery#Terms_and_ratings
That gives you the accepted definition of CCA.

Yep, I read that.


"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious
belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM."

What is the DSM?

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

DSMMD?!


The American Psychiatric Assosoation use the acronym 'DSM' and it's
widely known and used in the medical field.

Hmmm. I haven't referred to that manual yet, and hoping I won't have
to. ;-)


Indeed. All the best with that. ;)

David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

No idea who the bloke is. He got no reviews.


He's just (?) some guy who used to post in rec.autos.formula.1 and
who said "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious
belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." in an OT thread
in that newsgroup once. It happens to be something I agree with and
so I asked him if I could quote him.

I agree with it as well, but that's not important, the quote will be
true regardless of my opinion about it.
It's already true according Prof Dawkins.


Not all quotes are by Winston Churchill or Nietzsche. '

Nietzsche had said(wrote) lot of sensible things before he went crazy
due to illness.

Nietzsche was a brilliant and insightful man. IMO any such person who
doesn't apply a powerful filter to this world is going to go crazy.
Nietzsche didn't develop and apply any such filter as he was studying
society - the consequences were almost inevitable.
Click to expand...

I read that he went crazy due to tertiary effects of syphilis.
I can't imagine such an insightful man going crazy for reasons other than
that, but I can't be sure, I've never been a one.
Inisghtful artists do go crazy due to their heavy investment in the emotions
realm, yet insightful philosophers(most) do survive insanity.

I can't remember Churchill saying anything sensible, unless he
borrowed it from somewhere else.

Churchill was a very clever man but was
Click to expand...

Yes, his involvement in WW2 saga was notorious.

>, more than anything else, very quick-witted

Absolutely, but he had alcohol spirits to help him with that.
I, on the other hand, do get carried away under booze and manage to offend a
few, but who doesn't!
Churchill has some military training to fine tune his quick wits. I only
trained myself with beer when I was younger, unfortuntaely! :))

>and seemed to retain his wits in almost any situation.

His style was well suited for a situation like in WW2, and he used it pretty
well.

>He could think on his feet and had the courage of his convictions.

He was a quick thinker and a quick decision maker, but didn't have the
personality to think around all the consequences.
That was well suited for WW2 situation in Britain, when they were already
beginning to lose many of their prime colonies, while the regional threat
from Nazi Germany was as real as it could've been.
WW2 gave him opportunity to rise quickly, just as versailles treaty gave an
unexpected boost to Hitler's prominence.

>I admire both

I don't admire him, but do recognize his place in history. Like Hitler, he
was bound to come to prominence under the circumstances.
Either him or somebody who's a quick witted orator like him was a necessity
for British to survive the losing regional power.
Churchill having military background was better suited for the job than
ailing Chamberlain.
I know a cousin who's made his best and wackiest business decisions under
the influence of alcohol. So, with some luck, it's quite possible. :)

> Churchill and Nietzsche but for very different reasons.

Nietzsche indeed influenced the history in a far more humane & profound
way, but he suffered a lot to do that.

One of those 'funny' characters revered for 'funny' political reasons,
thanks to the timing of WW2.

.>Ordinary' people also
say quotable things sometimes.

Quotable things being said by elites are actually based on ordinary
people, sometimes borrowing the life experience of ordinary people.

Sometimes, depending of defintions of 'elites'.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there's a better word than that, but I can't get it off the top of my
head.
I'm bit language retarded due to sleep deprivation. :)

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Cool

--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
Click to expand...

I say screw the religions, especially the monotheistic ones. But, I know,
won't be getting that wish.
 
On Wednesday, February 19, 2003 at 10:15:32 PM UTC+11, pedro wrote:
No, your eyes are not deceiving you, that's what I said.. a Silcron
turntable! Remember them? Back in the days when there were only three
belt drive turntables in Australia.. the JH, which got the most
publicity because they spent more on advertising, the Silcron.. the
best, because it had a cast aluminium balanced platter- as opposed to
the JH pressed aluminium (JH used to claim that the wow and flutter was
absorbed/dissipated by the belt (huh!), and an import from Encel.. the
Connoisseur, which had a smaller but diecast platter. (Interesting
aspect of that one.. the motor lever on/off switch used to kick start
the platter with a 'flick'!)

What's the point of all this I hear you ask? (you mean apart from
causing you to delve into yesteryear? :) Well, believe it or not, I have
a Silcron turntable in as new condition. (sans arm, sans belt) It's
mounted on a chipboard base embellished with real teak wood veneer. I
made the base myself. It's been in the wardrobe for many years now, but
having moved house recently, had to be dislodged from it's resting
place. I have absolutely no use for it, and feel indisposed to throwing
it on the tip, and thought that someone might like to have possession of
it. Either as a useful item, or as a piece of audio history. There is a
belt for it, but it's broken, but could be mended with a suitable
adhesive. Well, it's here for the asking, if anyone wants it. I'm in the
Melbourne Western suburbs. You would need to call and pick it up of
course. Here is a photo..

http://home.iprimus.com.au/ptw/silcron.jpg

If interested send email to ptw at auslink dot org dot uk

I hope this has been interesting to someone.

--
rgds,

Pete.
-----
Click to expand...

Awesome sounding turntable. Underrated. Forgotten. And a lot of misinformation about them. People think they are just another JH but in fact sound about 100 times better.
 
<erinpowell77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ac774fb7-efae-4b54-94a2-d7dbb535dcfa@googlegroups.com...
> On Wednesday, February 19, 2003 at 10:15:32 PM UTC+11, pedro wrote:

<snip>

> Awesome sounding turntable. Underrated. Forgotten.

Much like the twelve-year-old post you replied to?

--
Bob Milutinovic
Cognicom
 
On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 23:15:06 +1100, "Bob Milutinovic"
<cognicom@gmail.com> wrote:

erinpowell77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ac774fb7-efae-4b54-94a2-d7dbb535dcfa@googlegroups.com...
On Wednesday, February 19, 2003 at 10:15:32 PM UTC+11, pedro wrote:

snip

Awesome sounding turntable. Underrated. Forgotten.

Much like the twelve-year-old post you replied to?
Click to expand...

As always, another google groups user... :)
 
On 16/02/15 4:30 AM, none@all.org wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 23:15:06 +1100, "Bob Milutinovic"
cognicom@gmail.com> wrote:

erinpowell77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ac774fb7-efae-4b54-94a2-d7dbb535dcfa@googlegroups.com...
On Wednesday, February 19, 2003 at 10:15:32 PM UTC+11, pedro wrote:

snip

Awesome sounding turntable. Underrated. Forgotten.

Much like the twelve-year-old post you replied to?

As always, another google groups user... :)

Must be quite nice being perfect??
Click to expand...
 
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