Potential New Design...

[Rick C]

I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I\'m picking an FPGA. I don\'t have much in the way of requirments yet, but I\'d like to have at least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout friendly package. That means no BGAs and no CSPs. The board features are just too small with those.

This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to program them with. So a few critical functions might be done this way including a PID controller.

I\'m a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts. The various lines don\'t have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line. They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.

There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is available in a couple of different packages. But they are pricey at $10 and up..

Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle packages?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Michael Kellett]

On 22/08/2020 06:01, Rick C wrote:

I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I\'m picking an FPGA. I don\'t have much in the way of requirments yet, but I\'d like to have at least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout friendly package. That means no BGAs and no CSPs. The board features are just too small with those.

This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to program them with. So a few critical functions might be done this way including a PID controller.

I\'m a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts. The various lines don\'t have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line. They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.

There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is available in a couple of different packages. But they are pricey at $10 and up.

Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle packages?

I share your interest in more rational packages - they are few and far
between.

Mouser are listing stock of Gowin 4608 LE size parts in 100 pin LQFP and
88 pin QFN.
They have the 8k LUT part in 88 pin QFN.
Prices are not that keen - I\'d hoped for better.
Of course there is a very real danger that you\'ll swap one hassle for
another with Gowin.
The parts look remarkably like Lattice XP2.

I\'d be be really obliged if you had a go with these and published your
experiences !

If I get the time I might have a go myself but it\'s always so hard to
find a project that\'s worth doing but where you feel willing to take a
risk of a key part turning out 100% useless.

MK

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:15:55 AM UTC-4, Michael Kellett wrote:

On 22/08/2020 06:01, Rick C wrote:
I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I\'m picking an FPGA.. I don\'t have much in the way of requirments yet, but I\'d like to have at least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout friendly package. That means no BGAs and no CSPs. The board features are just too small with those.

This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to program them with. So a few critical functions might be done this way including a PID controller.

I\'m a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts. The various lines don\'t have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line. They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.

There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is available in a couple of different packages. But they are pricey at $10 and up.

Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle packages?

I share your interest in more rational packages - they are few and far
between.

Mouser are listing stock of Gowin 4608 LE size parts in 100 pin LQFP and
88 pin QFN.
They have the 8k LUT part in 88 pin QFN.
Prices are not that keen - I\'d hoped for better.
Of course there is a very real danger that you\'ll swap one hassle for
another with Gowin.
The parts look remarkably like Lattice XP2.

I\'d be be really obliged if you had a go with these and published your
experiences !

If I get the time I might have a go myself but it\'s always so hard to
find a project that\'s worth doing but where you feel willing to take a
risk of a key part turning out 100% useless.

MK

Yeah, Gowin might be a tough sell on this project. It\'s about being able to build a lot of devices quickly if needed. Maybe I should reach out to their sales guy. He was happy to discuss product with me before. They aren\'t just focusing on large volume customers like most of the Chinese companies... well, most of the FPGA vendors for that matter.

Have you checked Edge for pricing? They are a bit better than Mouser.

edgeelectronics.com

Looks like Digikey is carrying Efinix. The only non-BGA package is the monstrous QFP144. There\'s another potentially viable Chinese FPGA company, but I can\'t recall the name. Not available through distribution though. Yet another one has nearly zero presence that isn\'t in Chinese.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Jon Elson]

Rick C wrote:

I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I\'m picking an FPGA.
I don\'t have much in the way of requirments yet, but I\'d like to have at
least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout
friendly package. That means no BGAs and no CSPs. The board features are
just too small with those.

This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily
be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to
program them with. So a few critical functions might be done this way
including a PID controller.

I\'m a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts. The various lines
don\'t have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line.
They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5
kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.

There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is
available in a couple of different packages. But they are pricey at $10
and up.

Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle
packages?

Xilinx has the XC3S50A (Spartan 3) in 100 and 144-pin packages for $10,
and the Spartan 3AN with non-voltaile configuration memory for about $13
each. Digi-Key does not give volume discounts, I guess if you want a bunch
of them, you need to go direct to the manufacturer.

Most of the newer parts are moving to ball-grid and no lead packages.

Jon
Jon

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:43:30 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:

Rick C wrote:

I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I\'m picking an FPGA.
I don\'t have much in the way of requirments yet, but I\'d like to have at
least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout
friendly package. That means no BGAs and no CSPs. The board features are
just too small with those.

This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily
be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to
program them with. So a few critical functions might be done this way
including a PID controller.

I\'m a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts. The various lines
don\'t have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line.
They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5
kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.

There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is
available in a couple of different packages. But they are pricey at $10
and up.

Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle
packages?

Xilinx has the XC3S50A (Spartan 3) in 100 and 144-pin packages for $10,
and the Spartan 3AN with non-voltaile configuration memory for about $13
each. Digi-Key does not give volume discounts, I guess if you want a bunch
of them, you need to go direct to the manufacturer.

Most of the newer parts are moving to ball-grid and no lead packages.

Spartan 3\'s are almost as old as I am and I would never design them in. Like fine wine, as FPGAs mature their price increases. $10 is already a hard pill to swallow. I\'d hate to see how much it is going forward.

But thanks for the suggestion.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[HT-Lab]

On 22/08/2020 06:01, Rick C wrote:

I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I\'m picking an FPGA. I don\'t have much in the way of requirments yet, but I\'d like to have at least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout friendly package. That means no BGAs and no CSPs. The board features are just too small with those.

This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to program them with. So a few critical functions might be done this way including a PID controller.

I\'m a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts. The various lines don\'t have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line. They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.

There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is available in a couple of different packages. But they are pricey at $10 and up.

Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle packages?

As mentioned a few times in the past I would recommend you look at the
many FPGA modules available. These are small daughter boards with modern
FPGA\'s, oscillators, supply chips and sometimes memory on a small PCB
friendly board. Using one of these modules can not only simplify your
PCB but perhaps more importantly you don\'t have to compromise on the
FPGA or the development tools! I can\'t overstress the importance of
having access to good development tools, in most cases building the PCB
is just minor step in the whole development process.

For my projects I used the Enterpoint DIL40 modules which also included
5volt line drivers. Unfortunately they now ceased trading but there are
still plenty of others around, here are a few of my bookmarked links:

https://tinyfpga.com/
https://shop.trenz-electronic.de/en/TE0722-02-DIPFORTy1-Soft-Propeller-with-Xilinx-Zynq-7010-and-16-MByte-Flash
https://store.digilentinc.com/cmod-a7-breadboardable-artix-7-fpga-module/
https://alchitry.com/collections/all/products/alchitry-au-fpga-development-board
https://www2.hdl.co.jp/en/xilinx-series1/spartan-6/xcm-019y-ql.html
https://www.aloriumtech.com/sno-fpga-module/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz_Tsn6zM6gIVRe7tCh2jbgEmEAMYAyAAEgJrQ_D_BwE
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32942562665.html
https://numato.com/
https://www2.hdl.co.jp/en/plink/xp68-05.html

and many more...

Good luck,

Hans
www.ht-lab.com

 

[Michael Kellett]

On 23/08/2020 01:27, Rick C wrote:

On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:15:55 AM UTC-4, Michael Kellett wrote:
On 22/08/2020 06:01, Rick C wrote:
I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I\'m picking an FPGA. I don\'t have much in the way of requirments yet, but I\'d like to have at least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout friendly package. That means no BGAs and no CSPs. The board features are just too small with those.

This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to program them with. So a few critical functions might be done this way including a PID controller.

I\'m a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts. The various lines don\'t have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line. They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.

There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is available in a couple of different packages. But they are pricey at $10 and up.

Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle packages?

I share your interest in more rational packages - they are few and far
between.

Mouser are listing stock of Gowin 4608 LE size parts in 100 pin LQFP and
88 pin QFN.
They have the 8k LUT part in 88 pin QFN.
Prices are not that keen - I\'d hoped for better.
Of course there is a very real danger that you\'ll swap one hassle for
another with Gowin.
The parts look remarkably like Lattice XP2.

I\'d be be really obliged if you had a go with these and published your
experiences !

If I get the time I might have a go myself but it\'s always so hard to
find a project that\'s worth doing but where you feel willing to take a
risk of a key part turning out 100% useless.

MK

Yeah, Gowin might be a tough sell on this project. It\'s about being able to build a lot of devices quickly if needed. Maybe I should reach out to their sales guy. He was happy to discuss product with me before. They aren\'t just focusing on large volume customers like most of the Chinese companies... well, most of the FPGA vendors for that matter.

Have you checked Edge for pricing? They are a bit better than Mouser.

edgeelectronics.com

Looks like Digikey is carrying Efinix. The only non-BGA package is the monstrous QFP144. There\'s another potentially viable Chinese FPGA company, but I can\'t recall the name. Not available through distribution though. Yet another one has nearly zero presence that isn\'t in Chinese.

Are Edge any good ? Their website is very hard to navigate and they list
lots of parts with no stock but keen prices.
For example they list the GW1N-9 144 pin only at just over $5, Mouser
have stock of the 88 pin QFN part but want £16 for 1 or about £12 for 100.
At $5 the Gowin part is well worth considering (for me) - 8k LUTs and
8Mbyte on chip SDRAM in a package I can easily use. At £16 its not that
attractive.

I notice that Trenz will sell me a board with the GW1N-9 on it for about
$30 (for one) and about $17 for 1k - which makes the $5 for the chip
look closer to the mark.

MK

 

[Theo]

HT-Lab <hans64@htminuslab.com> wrote:

As mentioned a few times in the past I would recommend you look at the
many FPGA modules available. These are small daughter boards with modern
FPGA\'s, oscillators, supply chips and sometimes memory on a small PCB
friendly board. Using one of these modules can not only simplify your
PCB but perhaps more importantly you don\'t have to compromise on the
FPGA or the development tools! I can\'t overstress the importance of
having access to good development tools, in most cases building the PCB
is just minor step in the whole development process.

Are those things actually available in volume? When I used one vendor, it
appeared they were essentially building them on demand. You buy the last
one in stock and suddenly the lead time goes up to 12 weeks (which slipped
to 16 weeks). And once they\'ve built them they don\'t have many before they
go out of stock again.

I can\'t imagine how it would go if I had an urgent need for 10,000.

Theo

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 4:25:15 AM UTC-4, HT-Lab wrote:

On 22/08/2020 06:01, Rick C wrote:
I might be working on a smallish design shortly and I\'m picking an FPGA.. I don\'t have much in the way of requirments yet, but I\'d like to have at least 2000 LUTs, 39 I/Os or more, but most importantly a board layout friendly package. That means no BGAs and no CSPs. The board features are just too small with those.

This design is offloading some functionality from an MCU that can easily be done, but it seems FPGAs are treated as hardware including the code to program them with. So a few critical functions might be done this way including a PID controller.

I\'m a fan of Lattice because of their smaller parts. The various lines don\'t have much in QFP or QFN packages though other than the iCE40 line. They have three Ultra parts from 1, 2 and 3.5 kLUTs and the Ultra Plus 5 kLUT part, all in a 48 pin QFP.

There is a 4.3 kLUT XO3D in a 72 pin QFN package and the XO2 device is available in a couple of different packages. But they are pricey at $10 and up.

Any devices from other makers that are similar to these in low hassle packages?

As mentioned a few times in the past I would recommend you look at the
many FPGA modules available. These are small daughter boards with modern
FPGA\'s, oscillators, supply chips and sometimes memory on a small PCB
friendly board. Using one of these modules can not only simplify your
PCB but perhaps more importantly you don\'t have to compromise on the
FPGA or the development tools! I can\'t overstress the importance of
having access to good development tools, in most cases building the PCB
is just minor step in the whole development process.

For my projects I used the Enterpoint DIL40 modules which also included
5volt line drivers. Unfortunately they now ceased trading but there are
still plenty of others around, here are a few of my bookmarked links:

https://tinyfpga.com/
https://shop.trenz-electronic.de/en/TE0722-02-DIPFORTy1-Soft-Propeller-with-Xilinx-Zynq-7010-and-16-MByte-Flash
https://store.digilentinc.com/cmod-a7-breadboardable-artix-7-fpga-module/
https://alchitry.com/collections/all/products/alchitry-au-fpga-development-board
https://www2.hdl.co.jp/en/xilinx-series1/spartan-6/xcm-019y-ql.html
https://www.aloriumtech.com/sno-fpga-module/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz_Tsn6zM6gIVRe7tCh2jbgEmEAMYAyAAEgJrQ_D_BwE
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32942562665.html
https://numato.com/
https://www2.hdl.co.jp/en/plink/xp68-05.html

and many more...

Good luck,

Hans
www.ht-lab.com

I appreciate the suggestion.

I don\'t recall recommendations for modules, but this is for a product that will be made in large quantities and supply is an issue. While the board design rules may not be an issue in production quantities (or it may depending on sources available at the time) but it is an issue for prototyping for sure.

The real issue is that this is not a severe limitation. I think I\'ve mentioned the several options available from Lattice Semi in QFN 32 to 84 or QFP100. The prices range from $2 for the small parts to $10 for the larger ones.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 11:52:26 AM UTC-4, Theo wrote:

HT-Lab <hans64@htminuslab.com> wrote:
As mentioned a few times in the past I would recommend you look at the
many FPGA modules available. These are small daughter boards with modern
FPGA\'s, oscillators, supply chips and sometimes memory on a small PCB
friendly board. Using one of these modules can not only simplify your
PCB but perhaps more importantly you don\'t have to compromise on the
FPGA or the development tools! I can\'t overstress the importance of
having access to good development tools, in most cases building the PCB
is just minor step in the whole development process.

Are those things actually available in volume? When I used one vendor, it
appeared they were essentially building them on demand. You buy the last
one in stock and suddenly the lead time goes up to 12 weeks (which slipped
to 16 weeks). And once they\'ve built them they don\'t have many before they
go out of stock again.

I can\'t imagine how it would go if I had an urgent need for 10,000.

No one builds FPGAs to order. More likely is they have volume customers who order parts on a schedule in 1000\'s. If they don\'t, they won\'t be in business long. The distributor carries inventory they think they can sell to you and I. When they run out they have to wait for the next run and their order is tacked on.

It would be nice if the manufacturer carries inventory. TI does that a lot and it makes it easy to use your favorite distributor. I don\'t know what parts these new FPGA companies are doing in that regard.

You need to consider the possibility of these companies going under. If Lattice goes under they will certainly be bought and the products will still be available. If Gowin or Efinix go under, who\'s going to pick them up?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Theo]

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 11:52:26 AM UTC-4, Theo wrote:
HT-Lab <hans64@htminuslab.com> wrote:
As mentioned a few times in the past I would recommend you look at the
many FPGA modules available. These are small daughter boards with modern
FPGA\'s, oscillators, supply chips and sometimes memory on a small PCB
friendly board. Using one of these modules can not only simplify your
PCB but perhaps more importantly you don\'t have to compromise on the
FPGA or the development tools! I can\'t overstress the importance of
having access to good development tools, in most cases building the PCB
is just minor step in the whole development process.

Are those things actually available in volume? When I used one vendor, it
appeared they were essentially building them on demand. You buy the last
one in stock and suddenly the lead time goes up to 12 weeks (which slipped
to 16 weeks). And once they\'ve built them they don\'t have many before they
go out of stock again.

I can\'t imagine how it would go if I had an urgent need for 10,000.

No one builds FPGAs to order.

We are talking about modules, not FPGA chips. All the modules cited are
made by companies I\'ve never heard of. (with the exception of Digilent).

More likely is they have volume customers who order parts on a schedule in
1000\'s. If they don\'t, they won\'t be in business long. The distributor
carries inventory they think they can sell to you and I. When they run out
they have to wait for the next run and their order is tacked on.

Some of such modules are stocked at Digikey and friends, but many are sold
direct. Often the stock at Digikey isn\'t more than a few dozen.

If you think your product is going to massively scale in demand in future,
you better get on the phone to the module vendor to get their production
going, because they won\'t be keeping 10,000 in stock.

Theo

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 7:16:55 PM UTC-4, Theo wrote:

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 11:52:26 AM UTC-4, Theo wrote:
HT-Lab <hans64@htminuslab.com> wrote:
As mentioned a few times in the past I would recommend you look at the
many FPGA modules available. These are small daughter boards with modern
FPGA\'s, oscillators, supply chips and sometimes memory on a small PCB
friendly board. Using one of these modules can not only simplify your
PCB but perhaps more importantly you don\'t have to compromise on the
FPGA or the development tools! I can\'t overstress the importance of
having access to good development tools, in most cases building the PCB
is just minor step in the whole development process.

Are those things actually available in volume? When I used one vendor, it
appeared they were essentially building them on demand. You buy the last
one in stock and suddenly the lead time goes up to 12 weeks (which slipped
to 16 weeks). And once they\'ve built them they don\'t have many before they
go out of stock again.

I can\'t imagine how it would go if I had an urgent need for 10,000.

No one builds FPGAs to order.

We are talking about modules, not FPGA chips. All the modules cited are
made by companies I\'ve never heard of. (with the exception of Digilent).

Yeah, no, zero interest in modules. I would like to consider one of the Chinese FPGA companies, but the uncertain supply is an issue, also the unknown tools. Don\'t recall which one, but the tool is actually in Chinese. Someone managed to figure it out though and get a design working.

I think for $2 to $5, 1k to 4k LUTs I can use an iCE40 part. This circuit may need to be very low power in idle state, so the iCE40 part may be ideal.. With 39 I/Os in a QFN48 I think it will be good.

More likely is they have volume customers who order parts on a schedule in
1000\'s. If they don\'t, they won\'t be in business long. The distributor
carries inventory they think they can sell to you and I. When they run out
they have to wait for the next run and their order is tacked on.

Some of such modules are stocked at Digikey and friends, but many are sold
direct. Often the stock at Digikey isn\'t more than a few dozen.

If you think your product is going to massively scale in demand in future,
you better get on the phone to the module vendor to get their production
going, because they won\'t be keeping 10,000 in stock.

Another reason why I\'m not looking at modules.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209