Positive Ground

[Ernie Werbel]

Hi all. I am a part-time college student majoring in Electrical Engineering
Technology. I have been trying to learn as much as I can on my own since I
was twelve; about ten years now. The earliest material I found was in books
and experience in taking things apart. I learned that electrons flowed out
of the negative terminal of the battery, through the circuit components, and
back into the positive terminal. Hence, I have always designed my projects
around a positive ground point. No problems there.
Well for the past year I have finally gotten into the hardcore
electronics-related classes at the college. Some material is familiar, but
most of it is new. I am doing well however I have difficulty with the fact
that the modern textbooks are showing the circuits using a negative ground.
This seems backwards. I know the circuit will still work the same way, but
it's hard to get myself to think in the negative-ground sense. If I look at
a positive-grounded circuit, I can envision the electrons and make
calculations without difficulty, but it's a different story with negative
ground for me.
What is anyone else's takes on this?
Ernie

 

[jasen]

On 2006-06-19, Ernie Werbel <etwjr@verizon.net> wrote:

Hi all. I am a part-time college student majoring in Electrical Engineering
Technology. I have been trying to learn as much as I can on my own since I
was twelve; about ten years now. The earliest material I found was in books
and experience in taking things apart. I learned that electrons flowed out
of the negative terminal of the battery, through the circuit components, and
back into the positive terminal. Hence, I have always designed my projects
around a positive ground point. No problems there.
Well for the past year I have finally gotten into the hardcore
electronics-related classes at the college. Some material is familiar, but
most of it is new. I am doing well however I have difficulty with the fact
that the modern textbooks are showing the circuits using a negative ground.
This seems backwards. I know the circuit will still work the same way, but
it's hard to get myself to think in the negative-ground sense. If I look at
a positive-grounded circuit, I can envision the electrons and make
calculations without difficulty, but it's a different story with negative
ground for me.
What is anyone else's takes on this?

I hear the US armed forces tecnician training programmes use electron flow
in their course material.

I guess you need to learn to read circuit diagrams upside-down

Bye.
Jasen

 

[default]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 03:42:29 GMT, "Ernie Werbel" <etwjr@verizon.net>
wrote:

Hi all. I am a part-time college student majoring in Electrical Engineering
Technology. I have been trying to learn as much as I can on my own since I
was twelve; about ten years now. The earliest material I found was in books
and experience in taking things apart. I learned that electrons flowed out
of the negative terminal of the battery, through the circuit components, and
back into the positive terminal. Hence, I have always designed my projects
around a positive ground point. No problems there.
Well for the past year I have finally gotten into the hardcore
electronics-related classes at the college. Some material is familiar, but
most of it is new. I am doing well however I have difficulty with the fact
that the modern textbooks are showing the circuits using a negative ground.
This seems backwards. I know the circuit will still work the same way, but
it's hard to get myself to think in the negative-ground sense. If I look at
a positive-grounded circuit, I can envision the electrons and make
calculations without difficulty, but it's a different story with negative
ground for me.
What is anyone else's takes on this?
Ernie

Can't you just assume they go from positive to negative, for the

purpose of reading the schematics easier? Frankly I don't see what
the difference is - I know the trons come from ground but that
information isn't relevant to designing stuff.


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[James T. White]

"Ernie Werbel" <etwjr@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:F2plg.250$ia6.94@trndny09

Ernie,

You, like all EE students that have gone before you, will just have to
accept the way +, - and the positve direction for current are defined.
Once you recognize that it is arbitrary and doesn't really matter so
long as you are consistent, it gets a good bit easier.

The definition of the positive and negative in an electrical circuit was
originally done by Ben Franklin long before the electron was discovered.
At that time he and others understood like charged objects were
repelled, unlike charged objects were attracted and something flowed
when they allowed unlike charged objects to touch. They also understood
that there was an excess of something on one of the objects that was
equalized when you allowed objects to touch. With a 50-50 shot at
getting it right, he just picked wrong when assigning the + and -. By
the time that electons were discovered and found to be the primary
current carrier in wires, it was far too late to re-define + and -.

Now, just wait until you start learning about semiconductor theory and
hole flow.

--
James T. White

 

[Dleer]

Einre, Einre, Einre!!!

It's called conventional current flow, get used to it because nearly
eveything you do in EE will assume convention flow. Diodes, transistors,
SPICE models, etc are all oriented to convential flow...hey that's why they
call it conventional. Think a second, if electrons are flowing one
direction positve "holes" are flowing the other way otherwise a charge would
build up in the wire--can't happen mister.

Things actually get much easier to understand with conventional flow. e.g.
if you want to know how to turn a transistor on, you can try talking sexy
to it, or if you are serious, just look at the emitter arrow, flow
conventional "positve" current in the direction the arrow points and you'll
get lucky!!!

EE work often requires, upside down, backwards, sidewise, sometimes even
smoke and mirrors to figure things out. Don't get caught up in a limited
thinking pattern.

Now to really confuse you, who says electrons are negatively charged anyway?
or are protons positively charged? this is just a naming convention, all
you can really say is the particles are oppositely charged. We could have
said electrons are positve and protons negative, absolutely nothing would be
different in how the universe works.

Do you know about positive and negative logic, knowing both is the secret to
perfect, fast, and easy logic design....?

DR

"Ernie Werbel" <etwjr@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:F2plg.250$ia6.94@trndny09...

Hi all. I am a part-time college student majoring in Electrical
Engineering Technology. I have been trying to learn as much as I can on
my own since I was twelve; about ten years now. The earliest material I
found was in books and experience in taking things apart. I learned that
electrons flowed out of the negative terminal of the battery, through the
circuit components, and back into the positive terminal. Hence, I have
always designed my projects around a positive ground point. No problems
there.
Well for the past year I have finally gotten into the hardcore
electronics-related classes at the college. Some material is familiar,
but most of it is new. I am doing well however I have difficulty with the
fact that the modern textbooks are showing the circuits using a negative
ground. This seems backwards. I know the circuit will still work the same
way, but it's hard to get myself to think in the negative-ground sense.
If I look at a positive-grounded circuit, I can envision the electrons and
make calculations without difficulty, but it's a different story with
negative ground for me.
What is anyone else's takes on this?
Ernie

 

[Dan H]

Ernie Werbel wrote:

Hi all. I am a part-time college student majoring in Electrical Engineering
Technology. I have been trying to learn as much as I can on my own since I
was twelve; about ten years now. The earliest material I found was in books
and experience in taking things apart. I learned that electrons flowed out
of the negative terminal of the battery, through the circuit components, and
back into the positive terminal. Hence, I have always designed my projects
around a positive ground point. No problems there.
Well for the past year I have finally gotten into the hardcore
electronics-related classes at the college. Some material is familiar, but
most of it is new. I am doing well however I have difficulty with the fact
that the modern textbooks are showing the circuits using a negative ground.
This seems backwards. I know the circuit will still work the same way, but
it's hard to get myself to think in the negative-ground sense. If I look at
a positive-grounded circuit, I can envision the electrons and make
calculations without difficulty, but it's a different story with negative
ground for me.
What is anyone else's takes on this?
Ernie

The assumed current flow and ground are really 2 different issues. As
the others have stated, the direction of current flow is by standard
convention from + to -

Ground is a reference point for measuring other voltages and has
nothing to do with the direction of current flow. It is the zero
voltage point so the if a measurement is -12V it is 12 volts more
negative than ground. If it is +5V it is 5 volts more positive than
ground. there is no reference to current flow in these measurements

In the early days of transistor logic NPN transistors were used and it
was easier to design when the logic levels were 0 and -12V. With the
advent of integrated circuits it was more convenient to make the logic
levels 0 and +5V or now 0 and +3V

I had an engineer that worked for me and always drew his diodes
backwards because he had learned electron flow in the military and
never was able to completely switch his brain to conventional current
flow.

Dan

 

[Lost'n Found]

Forget the word ground, and use the word reference- referenced to zero
volts.
Electrons do flow from negative to positive. Current goes from positive to
negative. Why? Blame the man on the $100 bill!

The way you did ur analysis before, instead of say having a battery of 12-0,
you have battery of 0- -12v, according to the universal convention. The
potential difference is still the same though.

solve some ciruits, you'll get used to it.


"Ernie Werbel" <etwjr@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:F2plg.250$ia6.94@trndny09...

Hi all. I am a part-time college student majoring in Electrical
Engineering Technology. I have been trying to learn as much as I can on
my own since I was twelve; about ten years now. The earliest material I
found was in books and experience in taking things apart. I learned that
electrons flowed out of the negative terminal of the battery, through the
circuit components, and back into the positive terminal. Hence, I have
always designed my projects around a positive ground point. No problems
there.
Well for the past year I have finally gotten into the hardcore
electronics-related classes at the college. Some material is familiar,
but most of it is new. I am doing well however I have difficulty with the
fact that the modern textbooks are showing the circuits using a negative
ground. This seems backwards. I know the circuit will still work the same
way, but it's hard to get myself to think in the negative-ground sense.
If I look at a positive-grounded circuit, I can envision the electrons and
make calculations without difficulty, but it's a different story with
negative ground for me.
What is anyone else's takes on this?
Ernie

 

[Geoff]

Ernie Werbel wrote:

Hi all. I am a part-time college student majoring in Electrical
Engineering Technology. I have been trying to learn as much as I can
on my own since I was twelve; about ten years now. The earliest
material I found was in books and experience in taking things apart. I
learned that electrons flowed out of the negative terminal of the
battery, through the circuit components, and back into the positive
terminal. Hence, I have always designed my projects around a
positive ground point. No problems there. Well for the past year I have
finally gotten into the hardcore
electronics-related classes at the college. Some material is
familiar, but most of it is new. I am doing well however I have
difficulty with the fact that the modern textbooks are showing the
circuits using a negative ground. This seems backwards. I know the
circuit will still work the same way, but it's hard to get myself to
think in the negative-ground sense. If I look at a positive-grounded
circuit, I can envision the electrons and make calculations without
difficulty, but it's a different story with negative ground for me.
What is anyone else's takes on this?
Ernie

There is no standard that says negative is ground. Circuits can be built
with either or no polarity grounded. There are reasons for one particular
grounding scheme in some circumstances to do with metal migration and
corrosion (telephone exchange/cables), but that is not relevant in general
electronics.

Current flow is positive to negative - that is the convention by which
directional components are described and illustrated. Electrons actually
travel from neg to pos, but that is irrelevant. This has nothing to do with
'ground'.

Just forget about electron flow direction, it will just distract you.

geoff

 

[Daniel]

Geoff wrote:

Ernie Werbel wrote:
Hi all. I am a part-time college student majoring in Electrical
Engineering Technology. I have been trying to learn as much as I can
on my own since I was twelve; about ten years now. The earliest
material I found was in books and experience in taking things apart. I
learned that electrons flowed out of the negative terminal of the
battery, through the circuit components, and back into the positive
terminal. Hence, I have always designed my projects around a
positive ground point. No problems there. Well for the past year I have
finally gotten into the hardcore
electronics-related classes at the college. Some material is
familiar, but most of it is new. I am doing well however I have
difficulty with the fact that the modern textbooks are showing the
circuits using a negative ground. This seems backwards. I know the
circuit will still work the same way, but it's hard to get myself to
think in the negative-ground sense. If I look at a positive-grounded
circuit, I can envision the electrons and make calculations without
difficulty, but it's a different story with negative ground for me.
What is anyone else's takes on this?
Ernie

There is no standard that says negative is ground. Circuits can be built
with either or no polarity grounded. There are reasons for one particular
grounding scheme in some circumstances to do with metal migration and
corrosion (telephone exchange/cables), but that is not relevant in general
electronics.

What you mean to say is "Conventional Current flow is positive to
negative...."

Current flow is positive to negative - that is the convention by which
directional components are described and illustrated.

When I did my basic electronics training, "Electron Current Flow" was
the method used, except for about two minute mention of Conventional
current flow!

Electrons actually

travel from neg to pos, but that is irrelevant. This has nothing to do with
'ground'.

Just forget about electron flow direction, it will just distract you.

Big call, Geoff, to forget Electron Current flow.

geoff

Daniel

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Don Kelly]

"Daniel" <dxmm@nospam.albury.net.au> wrote in message
news:44a72fb1$0$9785$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

Geoff wrote:
Ernie Werbel wrote:
Hi all. I am a part-time college student majoring in Electrical
Engineering Technology. I have been trying to learn as much as I can
on my own since I was twelve; about ten years now. The earliest
material I found was in books and experience in taking things apart. I
learned that electrons flowed out of the negative terminal of the
battery, through the circuit components, and back into the positive
terminal. Hence, I have always designed my projects around a
positive ground point. No problems there. Well for the past year I have
finally gotten into the hardcore
electronics-related classes at the college. Some material is
familiar, but most of it is new. I am doing well however I have
difficulty with the fact that the modern textbooks are showing the
circuits using a negative ground. This seems backwards. I know the
circuit will still work the same way, but it's hard to get myself to
think in the negative-ground sense. If I look at a positive-grounded
circuit, I can envision the electrons and make calculations without
difficulty, but it's a different story with negative ground for me.
What is anyone else's takes on this?
Ernie

There is no standard that says negative is ground. Circuits can be built
with either or no polarity grounded. There are reasons for one particular
grounding scheme in some circumstances to do with metal migration and
corrosion (telephone exchange/cables), but that is not relevant in
general electronics.


What you mean to say is "Conventional Current flow is positive to
negative...."

Current flow is positive to negative - that is the convention by which
directional components are described and illustrated.

When I did my basic electronics training, "Electron Current Flow" was the
method used, except for about two minute mention of Conventional current
flow!

Electrons actually
travel from neg to pos, but that is irrelevant. This has nothing to do
with 'ground'.

Just forget about electron flow direction, it will just distract you.

Big call, Geoff, to forget Electron Current flow.


geoff

Daniel

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
--------
However, except in some grade schools and a few tech institutes ,

conventional flow is used. Definitely so at the university level in both
engineering and physics. Actually, it really doesn't matter for solution
purposes, which way the current flows. Sometimes you don't actually know
until the math is worked out and if wrong the sign will indicate it.
Consistency is the main thing and conventional current is more consistent
overall particularly mathematically. Don't sweat it.
--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------

 

[Geoff]

Daniel wrote:

What you mean to say is "Conventional Current flow is positive to
negative...."

Yes.

Current flow is positive to negative - that is the convention by
which directional components are described and illustrated.

When I did my basic electronics training, "Electron Current Flow" was
the method used, except for about two minute mention of Conventional
current flow!

So you were taught to mentally rotate all the arrows on transistors and
diodes ? Sounds like hard work to me.

Electrons actually
travel from neg to pos, but that is irrelevant. This has nothing to
do with 'ground'.

Just forget about electron flow direction, it will just distract you.

Big call, Geoff, to forget Electron Current flow.

No. Not unless you are designing semiconductors.

geoff

 

[Daniel]

Geoff wrote:

Daniel wrote:
What you mean to say is "Conventional Current flow is positive to
negative...."

Yes.

Current flow is positive to negative - that is the convention by
which directional components are described and illustrated.
When I did my basic electronics training, "Electron Current Flow" was
the method used, except for about two minute mention of Conventional
current flow!

So you were taught to mentally rotate all the arrows on transistors and
diodes ? Sounds like hard work to me.

Why would you want me to mentally rotate all the arrows? The arrows
always pointed to the N type material, so you knew how to set up your
supplies!

Perhaps the problem here is that I'm talking actual circuit operation
where as you seem to be talking circuit analysis, Thevans, Norton, that
type of stuff.

Electrons actually
travel from neg to pos, but that is irrelevant. This has nothing to
do with 'ground'.

Just forget about electron flow direction, it will just distract you.
Big call, Geoff, to forget Electron Current flow.

No. Not unless you are designing semiconductor circuits

geoff

Daniel

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Don Kelly]

----------------------------
"Daniel" <dxmm@nospam.albury.net.au> wrote in message
news:44b0cc6b$0$16032$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

Geoff wrote:
Daniel wrote:
What you mean to say is "Conventional Current flow is positive to
negative...."

Yes.

Current flow is positive to negative - that is the convention by
which directional components are described and illustrated.
When I did my basic electronics training, "Electron Current Flow" was
the method used, except for about two minute mention of Conventional
current flow!

So you were taught to mentally rotate all the arrows on transistors and
diodes ? Sounds like hard work to me.


Why would you want me to mentally rotate all the arrows? The arrows always
pointed to the N type material, so you knew how to set up your supplies!

Perhaps the problem here is that I'm talking actual circuit operation
where as you seem to be talking circuit analysis, Thevans, Norton, that
type of stuff.

Electrons actually
travel from neg to pos, but that is irrelevant. This has nothing to
do with 'ground'.

Just forget about electron flow direction, it will just distract you.
Big call, Geoff, to forget Electron Current flow.

No. Not unless you are designing semiconductor circuits

geoff

Daniel

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Unimportant for actual circuit operation. One doesn't count electrons or
really care about what the charge carriers actually are except in terms of
the internal design of transistors,etc. Otherwise you measure voltages and
currents (and an ammeter is scaled and marked in terms of conventional
current). However, what is the electron flow for AC?-they just wiggle
about. Pick a convention and stick with it. Note that the conventional
current is used by far more people than "electron flow" and is the standard
in both physics and engineering use. You got stuck with a tech school of
the '40's definition where all electronic devices depended on electron flow
so somebody decided to reverse the "direction" of current (causing all kinds
of future and unnecessary problems). --

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer

>

 

[Ernie Werbel]

Ok so if I understand correctly all this it's not the way the electronic go
that's important it's the voltage potentials? So -12V to zero is the same
as zero to +12V?

But then why do you need ground? It's justa voltage reference, right? Or
does it serve some other purpose as a convenient connection point (less
wires if they go to the chassis)?

"Don Kelly" <dhky@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:d5jsg.145415$IK3.60362@pd7tw1no...

----------------------------
"Daniel" <dxmm@nospam.albury.net.au> wrote in message
news:44b0cc6b$0$16032$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
Geoff wrote:
Daniel wrote:
What you mean to say is "Conventional Current flow is positive to
negative...."

Yes.

Current flow is positive to negative - that is the convention by
which directional components are described and illustrated.
When I did my basic electronics training, "Electron Current Flow" was
the method used, except for about two minute mention of Conventional
current flow!

So you were taught to mentally rotate all the arrows on transistors and
diodes ? Sounds like hard work to me.


Why would you want me to mentally rotate all the arrows? The arrows
always pointed to the N type material, so you knew how to set up your
supplies!

Perhaps the problem here is that I'm talking actual circuit operation
where as you seem to be talking circuit analysis, Thevans, Norton, that
type of stuff.

Electrons actually
travel from neg to pos, but that is irrelevant. This has nothing to
do with 'ground'.

Just forget about electron flow direction, it will just distract you.
Big call, Geoff, to forget Electron Current flow.

No. Not unless you are designing semiconductor circuits

geoff

Daniel

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Unimportant for actual circuit operation. One doesn't count electrons or
really care about what the charge carriers actually are except in terms of
the internal design of transistors,etc. Otherwise you measure voltages
and currents (and an ammeter is scaled and marked in terms of
conventional current). However, what is the electron flow for AC?-they
just wiggle about. Pick a convention and stick with it. Note that the
conventional current is used by far more people than "electron flow" and
is the standard in both physics and engineering use. You got stuck with a
tech school of the '40's definition where all electronic devices depended
on electron flow so somebody decided to reverse the "direction" of
current (causing all kinds of future and unnecessary problems). --

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer

 

[jasen]

On 2006-07-14, Ernie Werbel <etwjr@verizon.net> wrote:

Ok so if I understand correctly all this it's not the way the electronic go
that's important it's the voltage potentials? So -12V to zero is the same
as zero to +12V?

same distance, same direction, only difference is the end points.

But then why do you need ground? It's justa voltage reference, right?

pretty much,

or does it serve some other purpose as a convenient connection point (less
wires if they go to the chassis)?

that too, especially in automobiles.

Bye.
Jasen