Porcelain thermally conductive insulators ?

[N_Cook]

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

(This is continuation of Ampeg BA600-115, can of worms.
I've got mains back on it and is in working order , now to try with high
power.)

This is my educated guess as to what happened at manufacture as absent but
distinctive 20mm long bolt not found around here. The 4 output devices
should be held to the heatsink via a cross-bar over all 4 of them and 2
bolts thru it into the heatsink. The insulators are ceramic and the 2
central ones, butted up together , do not clear the retaining bolts on their
outer edges. After graunching the thread the assembler decided to leave it
out and trust to luck one off-centre bolt would hold.
Coming to reassembly I found a 3mm screw for replacement but it would not
hold, as tapped thread is stripped, so I tapped that one hole out to 4mm.
Tried grinding a clearance notch on the side of one pad but got nowhere as
ceramic.
Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers while trying
to grind a slot , it was barely getting warm - good thermal insulator or
small grinding wheel not generating heat as not cutting into the material ?
So ,lateral thinking, decided to grind down the screw thread where it
interferes with the ceramic , on one bolt.
I wonder if this was a one off at manufacture or a whole batch like this,
all that was needed was shift a tapped hole 1mm, plenty of room there for
that. Or one ceramic pad 1 or 2 mm narrower.

ps
anyone use "chain mail glove" for small part in-hand grinding? At 80GBP and
upwards unlikely , firstly on cost, second need fingers for gripping items.
As an experiment wound some kevlar (ex fibre optic leads) around finger of
old glove and held in place with hot melt string. Simulated
grabbing/skittering of Dremmel and grinding disc into this on a piece of
dowel. It did not penetrate to the dowel, I expected the kevlar to snag and
stall the motor but cut clean through.

 

[Baron]

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

I would check that ! Its more likely that they are Beryllium_oxide !
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_oxide>

Tried grinding a clearance notch on the side of one
pad but got nowhere as ceramic.
Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers while
trying to grind a slot, it was barely getting warm - good thermal
insulator or small grinding wheel not generating heat as not cutting
into the material ?

The dust from grinding or abrading Beryllium_oxide is highly toxic !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Barry]

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:iohgfu$9e1$1@dont-email.me...

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

(This is continuation of Ampeg BA600-115, can of worms.
I've got mains back on it and is in working order , now
to try with high power.)

This is my educated guess as to what happened at manufacture as absent
but
distinctive 20mm long bolt not found around here. The 4 output devices
should be held to the heatsink via a cross-bar over all 4 of them and
2
bolts thru it into the heatsink. The insulators are ceramic and the 2
central ones, butted up together , do not clear the retaining bolts on
their
outer edges. After graunching the thread the assembler decided to leave
it
out and trust to luck one off-centre bolt would hold.
Coming to reassembly I found a 3mm screw for replacement but it would
not
hold, as tapped thread is stripped, so I tapped that one hole out to
4mm.

WARNING

Tried grinding a clearance notch on the side of one pad but got nowhere
as
ceramic.

WARNING

Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers while
trying
to grind a slot , it was barely getting warm - good thermal insulator
or
small grinding wheel not generating heat as not cutting into the
material ?
So ,lateral thinking, decided to grind down the screw thread where it
interferes with the ceramic , on one bolt.
{snip}

Those ceramic insulators are made from beryllia (berylium oxide), a
ceramic that has a higher heat conductivity than aluminum. You should
be _extremely_ careful in handling them. Quoting from the Wikipedia
article: "Like all berylium compounds, BeO is carcinogenic and may
cause chronic beryllium disease. Once fired into solid form, it is
safe to handle as long as it is not subjected to any machining that
generates dust." Likewise the American Beryllia site says: "Exposure
to fine, airborne beryllium oxide powder or dust in sufficiently
large concentrations, may cause a lung disease in a small number
of hypersensitive people."

Grinding a beryllia insulator is considered exceptionally dangerous.
Please read the MSDS at
http://www.AmericanBeryllia.com/lit/Beryllium_Oxide_MSDS.pdf.

I once needed some microwave windows made of beryllia. I was going
to order beryllia blanks, have the edges sputtered in gold, and braze
them into 316 stainless waveguide sections. I called the engineers
at National Beryllia (now American Beryllia) to discuss this application.
In short order, they convinced me that they should manufacture the
windows as there was a chance that the differential thermal expansion
between the beryllia and the stainless steel waveguide could potentially
shatter the ceramic and release beryllia powder. After learning the
cost, I went with sapphire windows instead.

Some people are hypersensitive to beryllium compounds. If you are
not in the hospital yet, consider yourself _very_ lucky. A small
percentage of the population is so hypersensitive that the small
amount of dust you created could be lethal.

Dr. Barry L. Ornitz WA4VZQ [my_ham_call at live.com]

 

[Jim Yanik]

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in news:iohgfu$9e1$1@dont-email.me:

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

(This is continuation of Ampeg BA600-115, can of worms.
I've got mains back on it and is in working order , now to try with
high power.)

This is my educated guess as to what happened at manufacture as absent
but distinctive 20mm long bolt not found around here. The 4 output
devices should be held to the heatsink via a cross-bar over all 4 of
them and 2 bolts thru it into the heatsink. The insulators are ceramic
and the 2 central ones, butted up together , do not clear the
retaining bolts on their outer edges. After graunching the thread the
assembler decided to leave it out and trust to luck one off-centre
bolt would hold. Coming to reassembly I found a 3mm screw for
replacement but it would not hold, as tapped thread is stripped, so I
tapped that one hole out to 4mm. Tried grinding a clearance notch on
the side of one pad but got nowhere as ceramic.
Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers while
trying to grind a slot , it was barely getting warm - good thermal
insulator or small grinding wheel not generating heat as not cutting
into the material ? So ,lateral thinking, decided to grind down the
screw thread where it interferes with the ceramic , on one bolt.
I wonder if this was a one off at manufacture or a whole batch like
this, all that was needed was shift a tapped hole 1mm, plenty of room
there for that. Or one ceramic pad 1 or 2 mm narrower.

ps
anyone use "chain mail glove" for small part in-hand grinding? At
80GBP and
upwards unlikely , firstly on cost, second need fingers for gripping
items. As an experiment wound some kevlar (ex fibre optic leads)
around finger of old glove and held in place with hot melt string.
Simulated grabbing/skittering of Dremmel and grinding disc into this
on a piece of dowel. It did not penetrate to the dowel, I expected the
kevlar to snag and stall the motor but cut clean through.

they may be -alumina- slabs,not porcelain;TEK used to use ~5/8" sq. alumina
slabs under the LVPS pass transistors on the 5000 series o'scope
mainframes.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

 

[whit3rd]

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

Insulating ceramics are not porcelain (vitrified kaolin clay)
but either alumina (white, very hard ceramic) or beryllia
(usually tinted pink or purple, and toxic if it's made to dust).

In neither case is it advisable to remachine the hole...

 

[N_Cook]

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote in message
news:iohp6k$bbn$1@dont-email.me...

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

I would check that ! Its more likely that they are Beryllium_oxide !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_oxide

Tried grinding a clearance notch on the side of one
pad but got nowhere as ceramic.
Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers while
trying to grind a slot, it was barely getting warm - good thermal
insulator or small grinding wheel not generating heat as not cutting
into the material ?

The dust from grinding or abrading Beryllium_oxide is highly toxic !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Unfortunately it would not grind. I assume it was not heating up because the
grinding disc was just running over the surface without even rubbing , let
alone grinding, so no dust, still the flat edge . Does BeO have that sort of
translucent appearance of porcelain? I've managed to grind small sections of
the ceramic used is high temperature "chock block" connectors, that has a
normal solid white appearance. But given its use here then presumably BeO.
It was the slightly milky/translucent porcelain-like appearance that
convinced me.

 

[Grant]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:25:39 +0100, "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote in message
news:iohp6k$bbn$1@dont-email.me...
N_Cook Inscribed thus:

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

I would check that ! Its more likely that they are Beryllium_oxide !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_oxide

Tried grinding a clearance notch on the side of one
pad but got nowhere as ceramic.
Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers while
trying to grind a slot, it was barely getting warm - good thermal
insulator or small grinding wheel not generating heat as not cutting
into the material ?

The dust from grinding or abrading Beryllium_oxide is highly toxic !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.


Unfortunately it would not grind. I assume it was not heating up because the
grinding disc was just running over the surface without even rubbing , let
alone grinding, so no dust, still the flat edge . Does BeO have that sort of
translucent appearance of porcelain? I've managed to grind small sections of
the ceramic used is high temperature "chock block" connectors, that has a
normal solid white appearance. But given its use here then presumably BeO.
It was the slightly milky/translucent porcelain-like appearance that
convinced me.

Only BeO I've seen was pink, and I'd not try to grind it, toxic!

Safe if not shattered.

Grant.

 

[N_Cook]

Grant <omg@grrr.id.au> wrote in message
news:ah3rq614gcdlc0jv002bmkfqtg5458poh2@4ax.com...

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:25:39 +0100, "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote in message
news:iohp6k$bbn$1@dont-email.me...
N_Cook Inscribed thus:

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

I would check that ! Its more likely that they are Beryllium_oxide !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_oxide

Tried grinding a clearance notch on the side of one
pad but got nowhere as ceramic.
Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers while
trying to grind a slot, it was barely getting warm - good thermal
insulator or small grinding wheel not generating heat as not cutting
into the material ?

The dust from grinding or abrading Beryllium_oxide is highly toxic !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.


Unfortunately it would not grind. I assume it was not heating up because
the
grinding disc was just running over the surface without even rubbing ,
let
alone grinding, so no dust, still the flat edge . Does BeO have that sort
of
translucent appearance of porcelain? I've managed to grind small sections
of
the ceramic used is high temperature "chock block" connectors, that has
a
normal solid white appearance. But given its use here then presumably
BeO.
It was the slightly milky/translucent porcelain-like appearance that
convinced me.

Only BeO I've seen was pink, and I'd not try to grind it, toxic!

Safe if not shattered.

Grant.

I've seen pink TO3, presumably BeO, insulators before but they did not have
this transclucent like appearance.

 

[Baron]

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote in message
news:iohp6k$bbn$1@dont-email.me...
N_Cook Inscribed thus:

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

I would check that ! Its more likely that they are Beryllium_oxide !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_oxide

Tried grinding a clearance notch on the side of one
pad but got nowhere as ceramic.
Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers
while trying to grind a slot, it was barely getting warm - good
thermal insulator or small grinding wheel not generating heat as
not cutting into the material ?

The dust from grinding or abrading Beryllium_oxide is highly toxic !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.


Unfortunately it would not grind. I assume it was not heating up
because the grinding disc was just running over the surface without
even rubbing , let alone grinding, so no dust, still the flat edge.
Does BeO have that sort of translucent appearance of porcelain?

The surface tends to have the appearance of good quality photocopy
paper, very smooth with a barely visible grain. A bit like ferrite
beads.

I've managed to grind small sections of the ceramic used is high
temperature "chock block" connectors, that has a normal solid white
appearance. But given its use here then presumably BeO.
It was the slightly milky/translucent porcelain-like appearance that
convinced me.

Both Aluminum oxide and Beryllium oxide are extremely hard materials. I
belive that the pink dye was used later to specifically identify
Beryllium. So its a good chance that the white insulators that you
have are Aluminum oxide. Even so its not a good idea to try to grind
them.

Ceramics are also used to machine metals, including some that are so
tough that only ceramic cutters can be used on them.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Barry]

"Baron" <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote in message
news:iokrbf$ma5$1@dont-email.me...

Both Aluminum oxide and Beryllium oxide are extremely hard materials.
I
belive that the pink dye was used later to specifically identify
Beryllium. So its a good chance that the white insulators that you
have are Aluminum oxide. Even so its not a good idea to try to grind
them.

Beryllia is white, the same as alumina. There is no standard on coloring
beryllia insulators for use as heat transfer links. No dye is used as
the beryllia is sintered (fired) at very high temperatures. Instead a
colored inorganic metal oxide is added in small amounts. Beryllia has
about seven to ten times the thermal conductivity of alumina, so if the
links were used with high power parts, they are probably beryllia.
Beryllia has about one third better thermal conductivity than aluminum
nitride in the 25 to 300 C temperature range. Only diamond and cubic
boron nitride are better thermal conductors (but at an exceptionally high
cost).

Until you know for sure what these insulators are made of, treat them as
beryllia. I.e., do not grind or crush them.

73, Dr. Barry L. Ornitz WA4VZQ

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Baron wrote:

Both Aluminum oxide and Beryllium oxide are extremely hard materials. I
belive that the pink dye was used later to specifically identify
Beryllium.

The 4CX250 transmitter tubes I used had white BeO ceramic insulators.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

 

[N_Cook]

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote in message
news:iokrbf$ma5$1@dont-email.me...

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote in message
news:iohp6k$bbn$1@dont-email.me...
N_Cook Inscribed thus:

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

I would check that ! Its more likely that they are Beryllium_oxide !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_oxide

Tried grinding a clearance notch on the side of one
pad but got nowhere as ceramic.
Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers
while trying to grind a slot, it was barely getting warm - good
thermal insulator or small grinding wheel not generating heat as
not cutting into the material ?

The dust from grinding or abrading Beryllium_oxide is highly toxic !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.


Unfortunately it would not grind. I assume it was not heating up
because the grinding disc was just running over the surface without
even rubbing , let alone grinding, so no dust, still the flat edge.
Does BeO have that sort of translucent appearance of porcelain?

The surface tends to have the appearance of good quality photocopy
paper, very smooth with a barely visible grain. A bit like ferrite
beads.

I've managed to grind small sections of the ceramic used is high
temperature "chock block" connectors, that has a normal solid white
appearance. But given its use here then presumably BeO.
It was the slightly milky/translucent porcelain-like appearance that
convinced me.

Both Aluminum oxide and Beryllium oxide are extremely hard materials. I
belive that the pink dye was used later to specifically identify
Beryllium. So its a good chance that the white insulators that you
have are Aluminum oxide. Even so its not a good idea to try to grind
them.

Ceramics are also used to machine metals, including some that are so
tough that only ceramic cutters can be used on them.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

The next time I come across one I'll try passing a laser beam or bright
light through it to see if any light passes through. It was that
translucency appearance, like porcelain , that I noticed.

 

[N_Cook]

I had to get inside that amp again, yet another PbF problem from next to
zero insertion force speaker connector at the PA 4 removal & inserts by me
was enough , only 6 months old.
The slabs pass red laser pointer light, but then on checking but so does the
ceramic of high temp "choc block".
These slabs are more trnasmissive and scatter the light throughout the slab
not just the entry and exit area of the chock block.

 

[Baron]

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

I had to get inside that amp again, yet another PbF problem from next
to zero insertion force speaker connector at the PA 4 removal &
inserts by me was enough , only 6 months old.
The slabs pass red laser pointer light, but then on checking but so
does the ceramic of high temp "choc block".
These slabs are more trnasmissive and scatter the light throughout the
slab not just the entry and exit area of the chock block.

Mmm ! Interesting. I have a small quantity of boxed TO3 BeO
insulators. I'll have to get one out and see.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[josephkk]

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:36:42 +0100, Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote:

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

I would check that ! Its more likely that they are Beryllium_oxide !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_oxide

Tried grinding a clearance notch on the side of one
pad but got nowhere as ceramic.
Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers while
trying to grind a slot, it was barely getting warm - good thermal
insulator or small grinding wheel not generating heat as not cutting
into the material ?

The dust from grinding or abrading Beryllium_oxide is highly toxic !

BeO is very expensive. I would be very surprised to find any in such
application.

 

[N_Cook]

josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:e79vq6lnae2qp2p36p8dskjftl2bsmb4ad@4ax.com...
On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:36:42 +0100, Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote:

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

I would check that ! Its more likely that they are Beryllium_oxide !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_oxide

Tried grinding a clearance notch on the side of one
pad but got nowhere as ceramic.
Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers while
trying to grind a slot, it was barely getting warm - good thermal
insulator or small grinding wheel not generating heat as not cutting
into the material ?

The dust from grinding or abrading Beryllium_oxide is highly toxic !

BeO is very expensive. I would be very surprised to find any in such
application.


++++


These were not made for the job. They have a hole for either TO220 or TOP66
maybe size transistors . So too wide for this use and the hole is not used
.. The layout does not mean they have to be 1.8mm thick , any thickness from
mica up could have been accommodated. Normally you would go for the thinnest
of insulators.

 

[N_Cook]

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote in message
news:ioni74$fk3$1@dont-email.me...

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

I had to get inside that amp again, yet another PbF problem from next
to zero insertion force speaker connector at the PA 4 removal &
inserts by me was enough , only 6 months old.
The slabs pass red laser pointer light, but then on checking but so
does the ceramic of high temp "choc block".
These slabs are more trnasmissive and scatter the light throughout the
slab not just the entry and exit area of the chock block.

Mmm ! Interesting. I have a small quantity of boxed TO3 BeO
insulators. I'll have to get one out and see.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

It maybe a function of thickness, these being 1.8mm thick slabs rather than
wafers

 

[Baron]

josephkk Inscribed thus:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:36:42 +0100, Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net
wrote:

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

1.8mm slabs of porcelain under TO220 devices.

I would check that ! Its more likely that they are Beryllium_oxide !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_oxide

Tried grinding a clearance notch on the side of one
pad but got nowhere as ceramic.
Not only that but I had no trouble holding the slab in fingers while
trying to grind a slot, it was barely getting warm - good thermal
insulator or small grinding wheel not generating heat as not cutting
into the material ?

The dust from grinding or abrading Beryllium_oxide is highly toxic !

BeO is very expensive. I would be very surprised to find any in such
application.

I wonder how much 12 dozen TO3 BeO insulators would be worth ?

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Baron]

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote in message
news:ioni74$fk3$1@dont-email.me...
N_Cook Inscribed thus:

I had to get inside that amp again, yet another PbF problem from
next to zero insertion force speaker connector at the PA 4 removal
& inserts by me was enough , only 6 months old.
The slabs pass red laser pointer light, but then on checking but so
does the ceramic of high temp "choc block".
These slabs are more trnasmissive and scatter the light throughout
the slab not just the entry and exit area of the chock block.

Mmm ! Interesting. I have a small quantity of boxed TO3 BeO
insulators. I'll have to get one out and see.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.


It maybe a function of thickness, these being 1.8mm thick slabs rather
than wafers

I cracked open a box of TO3 BeO insulators this afternoon...
I was very surprised ! I tried shining a red laser pointer through one.
Its weird but they do seem to glow but no direct light through it.

Putting one against a small hole in a cardboard box and viewing the sun
shows nothing, no light, nothing. Most odd !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[N_Cook]

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote in message
news:ioq3l9$goa$1@dont-email.me...

N_Cook Inscribed thus:

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote in message
news:ioni74$fk3$1@dont-email.me...
N_Cook Inscribed thus:

I had to get inside that amp again, yet another PbF problem from
next to zero insertion force speaker connector at the PA 4 removal
& inserts by me was enough , only 6 months old.
The slabs pass red laser pointer light, but then on checking but so
does the ceramic of high temp "choc block".
These slabs are more trnasmissive and scatter the light throughout
the slab not just the entry and exit area of the chock block.

Mmm ! Interesting. I have a small quantity of boxed TO3 BeO
insulators. I'll have to get one out and see.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.


It maybe a function of thickness, these being 1.8mm thick slabs rather
than wafers

I cracked open a box of TO3 BeO insulators this afternoon...
I was very surprised ! I tried shining a red laser pointer through one.
Its weird but they do seem to glow but no direct light through it.

Putting one against a small hole in a cardboard box and viewing the sun
shows nothing, no light, nothing. Most odd !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Thast was the same here complete scarttering with no obvious bright spot
directly opposite the entry point. Chock block ceramic was just the
adjascent bright spot , much attenuated in comparison to the porcelain or
vitrified BeO slab