PLL ICs with analog multiplier phase detectors ? Are they still around ?...

[boB]

Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:

Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:

Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

All the analog AM/FM radio chips are gone. You can still get the MC1496,
which is sort of a DIY version.

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

 

[bitrex]

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.

Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of like
this:

<https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en>

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:

<https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine>

 

[bitrex]

On 5/27/2023 9:01 PM, bitrex wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL  IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ?  Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use.  Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of like
this:

Er meant to say \"zero-crossing detectors\" there, rather.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of like
this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine

Yes, you can make a nice phase-frequency detector in an FPGA.

 

[boB]

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:10:34 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of like
this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine

Yes, you can make a nice phase-frequency detector in an FPGA.

Thanks for the suggestions.

We do already use the Silego Greenpak devices. Great parts !

This question was intended to find one like the old PLL chips that,
Like Phil Hobbs said, are all gone now. As fo the MC1496, we used to
actually use those many decades ago in an FM tuner we used to make.

The reason for the analog multiplier instead of digital comparator or
zero crossing detector is that this was going to be used for synching
to 60Hz (ish) AC grid or generator sine-waves that may very well be
distorted. Especially genny waveforms. Those do not ensure that zero
crossing is clean and detectble repeatably.

I had even looked to try and find an analog multiplier IC and those
are not availabe for cheap. Could make one out of log amps using
CD3046 transistor arrays but that is quite a few parts.

I think that the way to do this may actually be to use a cheap ARM
Cortex M0+ or similar micro with at least 2 A/D inputs and at least
some speed. 60 Hz area should work easily done with a 48 MHz
part I think. The whole PLL should be able to be done in one of these
actually. Digital filtering and all.

Thanks for all of the input.

boB

 

[bitrex]

On 5/28/2023 12:10 AM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of like
this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine

Yes, you can make a nice phase-frequency detector in an FPGA.

I think feature-rich mixed-signal FPGAs that are around the quad XOR
gate price point are pretty exciting!

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:52:07 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:10:34 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of like
this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine

Yes, you can make a nice phase-frequency detector in an FPGA.


Thanks for the suggestions.

We do already use the Silego Greenpak devices. Great parts !

This question was intended to find one like the old PLL chips that,
Like Phil Hobbs said, are all gone now. As fo the MC1496, we used to
actually use those many decades ago in an FM tuner we used to make.

The reason for the analog multiplier instead of digital comparator or
zero crossing detector is that this was going to be used for synching
to 60Hz (ish) AC grid or generator sine-waves that may very well be
distorted. Especially genny waveforms. Those do not ensure that zero
crossing is clean and detectble repeatably.

I had even looked to try and find an analog multiplier IC and those
are not availabe for cheap. Could make one out of log amps using
CD3046 transistor arrays but that is quite a few parts.

I think that the way to do this may actually be to use a cheap ARM
Cortex M0+ or similar micro with at least 2 A/D inputs and at least
some speed. 60 Hz area should work easily done with a 48 MHz
part I think. The whole PLL should be able to be done in one of these
actually. Digital filtering and all.

Thanks for all of the input.

boB

At 60 Hz you can do a nice all-software PLL. Lots of cheap ARM
processors include plenty-good-enough ADCs and nice timers.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 9:37:59 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <b...@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB
You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.

He wants an analog multiplier chip. so he can multiply by a local sine wave.. The XOR gate multiplies by a local square wave - cheaper, but not the same, Think about the higher odd harmonic content.

--
Bill sloman, Sydney

 

[bitrex]

On 5/28/2023 12:52 AM, boB wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:10:34 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of like
this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine

Yes, you can make a nice phase-frequency detector in an FPGA.


Thanks for the suggestions.

We do already use the Silego Greenpak devices. Great parts !

This question was intended to find one like the old PLL chips that,
Like Phil Hobbs said, are all gone now. As fo the MC1496, we used to
actually use those many decades ago in an FM tuner we used to make.

The reason for the analog multiplier instead of digital comparator or
zero crossing detector is that this was going to be used for synching
to 60Hz (ish) AC grid or generator sine-waves that may very well be
distorted. Especially genny waveforms. Those do not ensure that zero
crossing is clean and detectble repeatably.

I had even looked to try and find an analog multiplier IC and those
are not availabe for cheap. Could make one out of log amps using
CD3046 transistor arrays but that is quite a few parts.

I think that the way to do this may actually be to use a cheap ARM
Cortex M0+ or similar micro with at least 2 A/D inputs and at least
some speed. 60 Hz area should work easily done with a 48 MHz
part I think. The whole PLL should be able to be done in one of these
actually. Digital filtering and all.

Thanks for all of the input.

boB

Just for reference here are a couple of inexpensive analog multipliers,
not high performance but kind of neat circuits:

<https://www.edn.com/easy-four-quadrant-multiplier-using-a-quad-op-amp/>

This one uses Cds cells so probably mostly historical interest:

<http://www.seekic.com/uploadfile/ic-circuit/201171714725226.jpg>

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 10:02:36 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:

boB <b...@K7IQ.com> wrote:


Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

All the analog AM/FM radio chips are gone. You can still get the MC1496, which is sort of a DIY version.

It\'s just Jim Thompson\'s crude analog multilpier, stripped of the linearity improving bits he put into the MC1495, which slowed it down a bit

https://www.onsemi.com/pdf/datasheet/mc1495-d.pdf
https://www.onsemi.com/download/data-sheet/pdf/mc1496-d.pdf
https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/AN531-D.PDF

He did rip off Barrie Gilbert\'s original idea, to produce a crude cheap mass market device.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 1:12:43 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 5/28/2023 12:10 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <b...@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of like
this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine

Yes, you can make a nice phase-frequency detector in an FPGA.

I think feature-rich mixed-signal FPGAs that are around the quad XOR
gate price point are pretty exciting!

FPGAs at TTL logic prices? Has TTL gone up sharply in the last year or so? Which FPGAs would this be?

Or was this sarcasm? Text medium often requires some explicit indication of sarcasm.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2023-05-28 00:52, boB wrote:> On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:10:34 -0700,
John Larkin

jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of
like
this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:


https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine

Yes, you can make a nice phase-frequency detector in an FPGA.


Thanks for the suggestions.

We do already use the Silego Greenpak devices. Great parts !

This question was intended to find one like the old PLL chips that,
Like Phil Hobbs said, are all gone now. As fo the MC1496, we used to
actually use those many decades ago in an FM tuner we used to make.

The reason for the analog multiplier instead of digital comparator or
zero crossing detector is that this was going to be used for synching
to 60Hz (ish) AC grid or generator sine-waves that may very well be
distorted. Especially genny waveforms. Those do not ensure that zero
crossing is clean and detectble repeatably.

I had even looked to try and find an analog multiplier IC and those
are not availabe for cheap. Could make one out of log amps using
CD3046 transistor arrays but that is quite a few parts.

I think that the way to do this may actually be to use a cheap ARM
Cortex M0+ or similar micro with at least 2 A/D inputs and at least
some speed. 60 Hz area should work easily done with a 48 MHz
part I think. The whole PLL should be able to be done in one of these
actually. Digital filtering and all.

If the waveform can be really gnarly, then what you want is a digital
lock-in, where you multiply samples of the input by samples of a
good-quality sine wave, and relying on the orthogonality of sines and
cosines in both the continuous-time and sampled domains.

There are various way of doing that, mostly depending on whether the
sampling clock is derived from a fixed-frequency oscillator or from one
locked to the input. There are advantages to both.

Using a fixed-frequency sampling clock is simpler, and all the nice
Fourier transform and DSP theorems hold exactly.

Using a phase-locked sampling clock helps keep all the sampling and
slewing transients fixed, so that non-ideal behavior of the sampling
system doesn\'t lead to phase modulation. (Frequency-domain applications
are absolutely brutal at showing up any non-ideal behavior of your
sampling system, which is why everybody seems to screw up their first
digital lock-in design.)

We\'re obviously relying on the validity of the orthogonality relations
in both cases, so in the variable-clock case, the tuning range has to be
kept within reasonable bounds. (The math isn\'t difficult, but you do
have to take some care.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 28 May 2023 09:22:03 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-05-28 00:52, boB wrote:> On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:10:34 -0700,
John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of
like
this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:


https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine

Yes, you can make a nice phase-frequency detector in an FPGA.


Thanks for the suggestions.

We do already use the Silego Greenpak devices. Great parts !

This question was intended to find one like the old PLL chips that,
Like Phil Hobbs said, are all gone now. As fo the MC1496, we used to
actually use those many decades ago in an FM tuner we used to make.

The reason for the analog multiplier instead of digital comparator or
zero crossing detector is that this was going to be used for synching
to 60Hz (ish) AC grid or generator sine-waves that may very well be
distorted. Especially genny waveforms. Those do not ensure that zero
crossing is clean and detectble repeatably.

I had even looked to try and find an analog multiplier IC and those
are not availabe for cheap. Could make one out of log amps using
CD3046 transistor arrays but that is quite a few parts.

I think that the way to do this may actually be to use a cheap ARM
Cortex M0+ or similar micro with at least 2 A/D inputs and at least
some speed. 60 Hz area should work easily done with a 48 MHz
part I think. The whole PLL should be able to be done in one of these
actually. Digital filtering and all.

If the waveform can be really gnarly, then what you want is a digital
lock-in, where you multiply samples of the input by samples of a
good-quality sine wave, and relying on the orthogonality of sines and
cosines in both the continuous-time and sampled domains.

There are various way of doing that, mostly depending on whether the
sampling clock is derived from a fixed-frequency oscillator or from one
locked to the input. There are advantages to both.

Using a fixed-frequency sampling clock is simpler, and all the nice
Fourier transform and DSP theorems hold exactly.

Using a phase-locked sampling clock helps keep all the sampling and
slewing transients fixed, so that non-ideal behavior of the sampling
system doesn\'t lead to phase modulation. (Frequency-domain applications
are absolutely brutal at showing up any non-ideal behavior of your
sampling system, which is why everybody seems to screw up their first
digital lock-in design.)

We\'re obviously relying on the validity of the orthogonality relations
in both cases, so in the variable-clock case, the tuning range has to be
kept within reasonable bounds. (The math isn\'t difficult, but you do
have to take some care.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

The problem here is (as usual) poorly defined. I think Bob wants to
generate a sine that\'s sync\'d to the 60 Hz line, so the pull range
will be tiny.

One could software generate a DDS sine, conveniently available in
quadrature, and multiply the 90 degree guy against the acquired
reference sine to make the loop error, which servoes the DDS
frequency. Something like that.

Software DDS, filtering, PLLs, things like that are fun. One can Spice
and tune a whole analog system and then just code it in the most
barbaric way.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 12:52:26 AM UTC-4, boB wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:10:34 -0700, John Larkin
jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <b...@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of like
this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine

Yes, you can make a nice phase-frequency detector in an FPGA.
Thanks for the suggestions.

We do already use the Silego Greenpak devices. Great parts !

This question was intended to find one like the old PLL chips that,
Like Phil Hobbs said, are all gone now. As fo the MC1496, we used to
actually use those many decades ago in an FM tuner we used to make.

The reason for the analog multiplier instead of digital comparator or
zero crossing detector is that this was going to be used for synching
to 60Hz (ish) AC grid or generator sine-waves that may very well be
distorted. Especially genny waveforms. Those do not ensure that zero
crossing is clean and detectble repeatably.

I had even looked to try and find an analog multiplier IC and those
are not availabe for cheap. Could make one out of log amps using
CD3046 transistor arrays but that is quite a few parts.

I think that the way to do this may actually be to use a cheap ARM
Cortex M0+ or similar micro with at least 2 A/D inputs and at least
some speed. 60 Hz area should work easily done with a 48 MHz
part I think. The whole PLL should be able to be done in one of these
actually. Digital filtering and all.

The best way to do it is totally dependent on what you\'re using your line synchronized frequency for. There are competing requirements for harmonic and distortion rejection, precision, and reaction time. Depending on the application, conventional PLL techniques may be totally inadequate.

The grid is a mess. Not only do you have load induced non-linearities and phase shifts, but even the frequency can vary, however slightly, due to supply/ demand loading of the supplier, and that will be on a seconds timescale..

Thanks for all of the input.

boB

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 28 May 2023 01:44:12 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/28/2023 12:52 AM, boB wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:10:34 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of like
this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine

Yes, you can make a nice phase-frequency detector in an FPGA.


Thanks for the suggestions.

We do already use the Silego Greenpak devices. Great parts !

This question was intended to find one like the old PLL chips that,
Like Phil Hobbs said, are all gone now. As fo the MC1496, we used to
actually use those many decades ago in an FM tuner we used to make.

The reason for the analog multiplier instead of digital comparator or
zero crossing detector is that this was going to be used for synching
to 60Hz (ish) AC grid or generator sine-waves that may very well be
distorted. Especially genny waveforms. Those do not ensure that zero
crossing is clean and detectble repeatably.

I had even looked to try and find an analog multiplier IC and those
are not availabe for cheap. Could make one out of log amps using
CD3046 transistor arrays but that is quite a few parts.

I think that the way to do this may actually be to use a cheap ARM
Cortex M0+ or similar micro with at least 2 A/D inputs and at least
some speed. 60 Hz area should work easily done with a 48 MHz
part I think. The whole PLL should be able to be done in one of these
actually. Digital filtering and all.

Thanks for all of the input.

boB


Just for reference here are a couple of inexpensive analog multipliers,
not high performance but kind of neat circuits:

https://www.edn.com/easy-four-quadrant-multiplier-using-a-quad-op-amp/

This one uses Cds cells so probably mostly historical interest:

http://www.seekic.com/uploadfile/ic-circuit/201171714725226.jpg

Multipling a signal times a square wave is really easy. Just switch an
amp between gain +1 and -1.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 9:23:22 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2023-05-28 00:52, boB wrote:> On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:10:34 -0700,
John Larkin
jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <b...@K7IQ.com> wrote:



Is anybody making a PLL IC with multiplier input phase detector that
doesn\'t cost, like $50+ from Analog Devices ? Parts that are active
and still being manufactured ?

I used to use ones like the XR-215 and some others but have not seen
any for many years now.

The 74HC4046 is OK but not the phase detector I am looking for.

Not for microwave use. Much lower frequency than those kinds.

boB

You could make one. Use a dual comparator and an xor gate for the
multiplier.

Or a quad XOR gate to be really cheap.



Using the SLG46537 mixed-signal PLC or similar you can build a pair of
nice edge detectors with its four onboard comparators maybe sort of
like
this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0643484A1/en

And then with the 8 stage async state machine you can implement several
phase detector topologies, once you\'ve got edges for firing the
transitions.

I think 25 cents or so in small quantity:


https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/programmable-mixed-signal-asic-ip-products/greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-products/greenpak-asynchronous-state-machine/slg46537-greenpak-programmable-mixed-signal-matrix-asynchronous-state-machine

Yes, you can make a nice phase-frequency detector in an FPGA.


Thanks for the suggestions.

We do already use the Silego Greenpak devices. Great parts !

This question was intended to find one like the old PLL chips that,
Like Phil Hobbs said, are all gone now. As fo the MC1496, we used to
actually use those many decades ago in an FM tuner we used to make.

The reason for the analog multiplier instead of digital comparator or
zero crossing detector is that this was going to be used for synching
to 60Hz (ish) AC grid or generator sine-waves that may very well be
distorted. Especially genny waveforms. Those do not ensure that zero
crossing is clean and detectble repeatably.

I had even looked to try and find an analog multiplier IC and those
are not availabe for cheap. Could make one out of log amps using
CD3046 transistor arrays but that is quite a few parts.

I think that the way to do this may actually be to use a cheap ARM
Cortex M0+ or similar micro with at least 2 A/D inputs and at least
some speed. 60 Hz area should work easily done with a 48 MHz
part I think. The whole PLL should be able to be done in one of these
actually. Digital filtering and all.
If the waveform can be really gnarly, then what you want is a digital
lock-in, where you multiply samples of the input by samples of a
good-quality sine wave, and relying on the orthogonality of sines and
cosines in both the continuous-time and sampled domains.

There are various way of doing that, mostly depending on whether the
sampling clock is derived from a fixed-frequency oscillator or from one
locked to the input. There are advantages to both.

Using a fixed-frequency sampling clock is simpler, and all the nice
Fourier transform and DSP theorems hold exactly.

Using a phase-locked sampling clock helps keep all the sampling and
slewing transients fixed, so that non-ideal behavior of the sampling
system doesn\'t lead to phase modulation. (Frequency-domain applications
are absolutely brutal at showing up any non-ideal behavior of your
sampling system, which is why everybody seems to screw up their first
digital lock-in design.)

We\'re obviously relying on the validity of the orthogonality relations
in both cases, so in the variable-clock case, the tuning range has to be
kept within reasonable bounds. (The math isn\'t difficult, but you do
have to take some care.)

That\'s why the switched synchronous detector is so often used in applications like lock-ins that take it to 20-bit resolution.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 11:23:22 PM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2023-05-28 00:52, boB wrote:> On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:10:34 -0700,
John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <b...@K7IQ.com> wrote:

<snip>

I think that the way to do this may actually be to use a cheap ARM Cortex M0+ or similar micro with at least 2 A/D inputs and at least some speed. 60 Hz area should work easily done with a 48 MHz part I think. The whole PLL should be able to be done in one of these actually. Digital filtering and all.

If the waveform can be really gnarly, then what you want is a digital lock-in, where you multiply samples of the input by samples of a good-quality sine wave, and relying on the orthogonality of sines and cosines in both the continuous-time and sampled domains.

An analog multiplier and and analog sine wave can work just as well.

> There are various way of doing that, mostly depending on whether the sampling clock is derived from a fixed-frequency oscillator or from one locked to the input. There are advantages to both.

Getting tunable clean sinewave oscillator for a phase-locked loop can be tricky. I\'ve worked out a couple of ways of doing it, but haven\'t put any of them into practice.

A well filtered Direct Digital Synthesis chip can come pretty close

Using a fixed-frequency sampling clock is simpler, and all the nice Fourier transform and DSP theorems hold exactly.

Using a phase-locked sampling clock helps keep all the sampling and slewing transients fixed, so that non-ideal behavior of the sampling system doesn\'t lead to phase modulation. (Frequency-domain applications are absolutely brutal at showing up any non-ideal behavior of your sampling system, which is why everybody seems to screw up their first digital lock-in design..)

There\'s also a lot of high frequency digital hash floating around the powers, and it takes careful design and layout to keep it out of the places where it creates problems.
Using ECL logic puts much less hash on the power rails, but that tends to be impractical.

> We\'re obviously relying on the validity of the orthogonality relations in both cases, so in the variable-clock case, the tuning range has to be kept within reasonable bounds. (The math isn\'t difficult, but you do have to take some care.)

Getting the layout and right and keeping the high frequency hash away from the sensitive bits takes no less care.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 12:22:21 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 28 May 2023 01:44:12 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
On 5/28/2023 12:52 AM, boB wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:10:34 -0700, John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:01:32 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
On 5/27/2023 7:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:48:28 -0700, boB <b...@K7IQ.com> wrote:

<snip>

> Multipling a signal times a square wave is really easy. Just switch an amp between gain +1 and -1.

Of course the square wave has all the odd harmonics up to the limit set by your switching speed, so that ease comes at a cost.

Sometime a \"modified sine wave\" which is to say a three level waveform which is high for 2/6 of the period, zero for 1/6th of the period, low for 2/6th of the period and zero again for the last 1/6th of the period, can be handy - it has no third harmonic content and the fifth and seventh harmonics are reduced.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney