PIC or ZiLog

B

b.a. marcus

Guest
I've been wanting to learn digital circuits.
Which platform would be best for a beginner with limited programming
skills and intermediate electronic skills.
I can find lots of books and URL's on PIC but I have seen lots of
actual circuits with ZiLog chips (not too many books or URL's).
So which is more popular and Which do YOU prefer? PIC or ZiLog?
 
So which is more popular and Which do YOU prefer? PIC or ZiLog?
Click to expand...
Both are sold and used, so you can find protonents of each (and of a
*lot* of other chips).

I prefer PICs. Maybe read http://www.voti.nl/swp

But IMHO a beginner in programming should first acquire some basic
skills, preferably using a PC. Use the parallel port if you want to
interface to the outside world.



Wouter van Ooijen

-- ------------------------------------
http://www.voti.nl
PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting
 
In your position I'd recommend a PIC. There's plenty of information, they
sell a neat little starter kit, Microchip supports the small volume builder,
you can get PICs in little bitty packages, and you don't need nearly the
amount of support circuitry for a PIC as you do for a Zilinx part.

That having been said, if I were doing a project that required a little
8-bit microprocessor I'd use an Atmel AVR because it's like the PIC only
done right, but if you want to lean on books and articles and knowledgeable
fellow hobbyists you'll get more support with a PIC.

"b.a. marcus" <bruceam@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:921df43.0312291300.1c44e324@posting.google.com...
I've been wanting to learn digital circuits.
Which platform would be best for a beginner with limited programming
skills and intermediate electronic skills.
I can find lots of books and URL's on PIC but I have seen lots of
actual circuits with ZiLog chips (not too many books or URL's).
So which is more popular and Which do YOU prefer? PIC or ZiLog?
Click to expand...
 
b.a. marcus wrote:
I've been wanting to learn digital circuits.
Which platform would be best for a beginner with limited programming
skills and intermediate electronic skills.
I can find lots of books and URL's on PIC but I have seen lots of
actual circuits with ZiLog chips (not too many books or URL's).
So which is more popular and Which do YOU prefer? PIC or ZiLog?
Click to expand...
This is a religious issue. You'll find fanatics in both camps.
They play leapfrog. At any given time you can make an argument
for one or the other, but it all seems to average out.

I'd pick the tools first then the chip. You want FREE samples.
You want FREE high level language development tools. You want
an ALMOST FREE programmer. When you figger out which chip has
the cheapest tools and the most free samples, pick that one.
All else equal, pick something with a linear address space.
All that page switching is a pain.

mike

--
Return address is VALID.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
Honda CB-125S $800 in PDX
TEK Sampling Sweep Plugin and RM564
Tek 2465 $800, ham radio, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
 
Hmmm, I was thinking small scale and you suggested that there were
more. What other chips are there?

wouter@voti.nl (Wouter van Ooijen (www.voti.nl)) wrote in message news:<3ff09f35.1256400708@news.xs4all.nl>...
So which is more popular and Which do YOU prefer? PIC or ZiLog?

Both are sold and used, so you can find protonents of each (and of a
*lot* of other chips).

I prefer PICs. Maybe read http://www.voti.nl/swp

But IMHO a beginner in programming should first acquire some basic
skills, preferably using a PC. Use the parallel port if you want to
interface to the outside world.



Wouter van Ooijen

-- ------------------------------------
http://www.voti.nl
PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting
Click to expand...
 
"b.a. marcus" <bruceam@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:921df43.0312291831.df2b86f@posting.google.com...
Hmmm, I was thinking small scale and you suggested that there were
more. What other chips are there?
Click to expand...
Atmel AVR? :)
 
I'd pick the tools first then the chip. You want FREE samples.
You want FREE high level language development tools. You want
an ALMOST FREE programmer. When you figger out which chip has
the cheapest tools and the most free samples, pick that one.
All else equal, pick something with a linear address space.
All that page switching is a pain.
Click to expand...
IMHO Mike's 'checklist' is right, but he forgot the most important one
(or two) criteria:

- you will want help. check your neigbourhood, friends, local
electronic clubs etc. for what they use. this is the most important
criterium. PIC has a great mailing list (www.piclist.com), I have been
told that AVR has a good one too (avrfreaks?) but local help is
better.

- you want a chip that you can buy easily. PIC and AVR are often
available, Motorola, Cygnall, Philips, etc are often more difficult


Wouter van Ooijen

-- ------------------------------------
http://www.voti.nl
PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting
 
The tools i choose are the ones that cost the least.
I would say that a good home-made programmer and a couple of ripped
off chips is the way i'm gonna go.

mike <spamme0@juno.com> wrote in message news:<3FF0D502.2070907@juno.com>...
b.a. marcus wrote:
I've been wanting to learn digital circuits.
Which platform would be best for a beginner with limited programming
skills and intermediate electronic skills.
I can find lots of books and URL's on PIC but I have seen lots of
actual circuits with ZiLog chips (not too many books or URL's).
So which is more popular and Which do YOU prefer? PIC or ZiLog?

This is a religious issue. You'll find fanatics in both camps.
They play leapfrog. At any given time you can make an argument
for one or the other, but it all seems to average out.

I'd pick the tools first then the chip. You want FREE samples.
You want FREE high level language development tools. You want
an ALMOST FREE programmer. When you figger out which chip has
the cheapest tools and the most free samples, pick that one.
All else equal, pick something with a linear address space.
All that page switching is a pain.

mike

--
Return address is VALID.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
Honda CB-125S $800 in PDX
TEK Sampling Sweep Plugin and RM564
Tek 2465 $800, ham radio, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
Click to expand...
 
"b.a. marcus" <bruceam@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:921df43.0312292324.7eead0ad@posting.google.com...
The tools i choose are the ones that cost the least.
I would say that a good home-made programmer and a couple of ripped
off chips is the way i'm gonna go.
Click to expand...
A good start on the AVR is with a 2343, and a BA1FB programmer.
You can get the chip and programmer together for <$10.
My BA1FB programmer cost about $5 in parts from Radio Shack.

Always have more than one chip though. :)
 
mike wrote:

b.a. marcus wrote:
I've been wanting to learn digital circuits.
Which platform would be best for a beginner with limited programming
skills and intermediate electronic skills.
I can find lots of books and URL's on PIC but I have seen lots of
actual circuits with ZiLog chips (not too many books or URL's).
So which is more popular and Which do YOU prefer? PIC or ZiLog?

This is a religious issue. You'll find fanatics in both camps.
They play leapfrog. At any given time you can make an argument
for one or the other, but it all seems to average out.
Click to expand...
And there is a whole bunch of us who would recommend the 8051 and its
derivatives.

Ian
 
"Ian Bell" <ian@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bst0fv$i3d$1@news.ukfsn.org...
mike wrote:

Ian
Click to expand...
Eww -- 8051 -- blech. Not that I have anything against the 8051. Some of
my best friends are 8051s. Personally I can see many uses for the 8051. If
I needed a shim and I had an 8051 I'd use it happily. But for programming?
 
Tim Wescott wrote:

"Ian Bell" <ian@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bst0fv$i3d$1@news.ukfsn.org...
mike wrote:

Ian


Eww -- 8051 -- blech. Not that I have anything against the 8051. Some of
my best friends are 8051s. Personally I can see many uses for the 8051.
If
I needed a shim and I had an 8051 I'd use it happily. But for
programming?
Click to expand...
Really? Well IMHO it is a lot more straightforward than the PIC, has a
decent sized stack, doesn't call memeory locations by strange names like
files, comes in at least as many variants as the PIC, has many more
powerful variants than the PIC and has excellent assemblers and C
compilers.

To you sir I say, Pic? -- blech.

Ian

--
UKFS
 
Eww -- 8051 -- blech. Not that I have anything against the 8051. Some of
my best friends are 8051s. Personally I can see many uses for the 8051. If
I needed a shim and I had an 8051 I'd use it happily. But for programming?
Click to expand...
But if you could only learn ONE architecture, 8051 would be the most
marketable (probably). Though I do cloudily foresee a future where
relative production costs between 8-bit and 32-bit cores are so tiny
that it's more cost-effective for mfrs to support just one 32-bit
core.

It really isn't very important which architecture the OP learns,
though. As a practical matter, he will need to learn multiple
architectures in an embedded career. At this stage of the game, he's
best to focus on something with cheap tools and lots of users he can
ask questions.
 
To you sir I say, Pic? -- blech.
Click to expand...
OK, 8051. Let's see how many variants my local supplier has in stock.
Right, zero. So it's back to PICs.

(Don't take me wrong, I use PICs exclusively but I do know each uC
line has its strengths and weaknesses - the PIC has quite a few of the
latter).


Wouter van Ooijen

-- ------------------------------------
http://www.voti.nl
PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting
 
It really isn't very important which architecture the OP learns,
though. As a practical matter, he will need to learn multiple
architectures in an embedded career.
Click to expand...
Agreed for a career, but I did not get the impression that the OP
wanted a career, just something to start with at home.


Wouter van Ooijen

-- ------------------------------------
http://www.voti.nl
PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting
 
I'll vote for AVR, but first read, read, read. Check out AVR Freaks
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php Everything you need to know about AVR is
there.

Look at their program examples, download an assembler and a simulator. (both
free) Write a program in assembler, compile it, and run on the simulator.

Well actually write it, compile it, correct the errors and re-compile it,
re-correct the errors, re-re-compile it, run on the simulator,
re-re-re-correct the errors (I think you get the idea)

Jay
--
..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm pullin' for you; we're all in this together", Red Green
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"b.a. marcus" <bruceam@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:921df43.0312291300.1c44e324@posting.google.com...
I've been wanting to learn digital circuits.
Which platform would be best for a beginner with limited programming
skills and intermediate electronic skills.
I can find lots of books and URL's on PIC but I have seen lots of
actual circuits with ZiLog chips (not too many books or URL's).
So which is more popular and Which do YOU prefer? PIC or ZiLog?
Click to expand...
 
If you look at my _other_ post you'll see me recommending the Atmel AVR,
which has a mostly-orthogonal instruction set and a rational stack, which
the PIC and the 8051 both lack. I've used the 8051 and it takes many more
instructions than it needs to get the job done compared to an AVR or 6811 or
Z80 (or just about anything 16- or 32-bit).

Take a look at the assembly that those C compilers produce, and you'll see
them bending over backwards to create a data stack and to handle pointer
accessing. If they haven't changed they also have a section at the front of
the book where they recommend all of the tricks of excrutiatingly bad C
style to get the processor to run decently fast -- neither the 6811 or the
AVR has these problems.

So if _you_ need a shim and reach for a PIC, that's fine with me.

"Ian Bell" <ian@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bsvjb3$ap6$2@news.ukfsn.org...
Tim Wescott wrote:

"Ian Bell" <ian@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bst0fv$i3d$1@news.ukfsn.org...
mike wrote:

Ian


Eww -- 8051 -- blech. Not that I have anything against the 8051. Some
of
my best friends are 8051s. Personally I can see many uses for the 8051.
If
I needed a shim and I had an 8051 I'd use it happily. But for
programming?

Really? Well IMHO it is a lot more straightforward than the PIC, has a
decent sized stack, doesn't call memeory locations by strange names like
files, comes in at least as many variants as the PIC, has many more
powerful variants than the PIC and has excellent assemblers and C
compilers.

To you sir I say, Pic? -- blech.

Ian

--
UKFS
Click to expand...
 
wouter@voti.nl (Wouter van Ooijen (www.voti.nl)) wrote in message news:<3ff3c947.1463779633@news.xs4all.nl>...
It really isn't very important which architecture the OP learns,
though. As a practical matter, he will need to learn multiple
architectures in an embedded career.

Agreed for a career, but I did not get the impression that the OP
wanted a career, just something to start with at home.


Wouter van Ooijen

-- ------------------------------------
http://www.voti.nl
PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting
Click to expand...
Ive decided to try the AVR route. Thanx for the info Jay.
Jay was very persuasive but I think what sold me was AVR's other
chips. I like the idea of building an MP3 player for my old rusty
truck.

Most of all I was interested in a platform for building my cat5 cable
tester. But I'm not sure that even AVR can do what I wanted to do with
it though I need to do more research on the project.

I was also interested in a TCP/IP project. You guys have proabably
seen the Tiny Web Server project.

A career would be nice but it's my understanding that those companies
like to hire young colledge grads. I pitty those guys. No, this is
just a hobby for me. I hope it keeps my mind young and active. I may
not be as old as a lot of you but I need to do something with
retirement coming up in 10 or 15 years.

Thanx to all of you for your input. I appreciate it very much.
 
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