Peak current to charge a capacitor

P

Peter

Guest
How do I calculate the peak current flow when charging a capacitor?

To be specific I want to connect a capacitor (among other things) to
the output of a 74HC595. There will be a diode between the IC and the
cap. What is the maximum size capacitor that I can use without blowing
up the chip?
 
On 2 Aug 2004 14:36:18 -0700, pmolsen@one.net.au (Peter) wrote:

How do I calculate the peak current flow when charging a capacitor?

To be specific I want to connect a capacitor (among other things) to
the output of a 74HC595. There will be a diode between the IC and the
cap. What is the maximum size capacitor that I can use without blowing
up the chip?
Click to expand...
No limit; you won't blow up the chip doing this.

John
 
Are you saying I could attach a 1 Farad capacitor to the chip and not
overload the output???
 
On 3 Aug 2004 13:35:57 -0700, pmolsen@one.net.au (Peter) wrote:

Are you saying I could attach a 1 Farad capacitor to the chip and not
overload the output???
Click to expand...
Yup. Or even a short to ground.

John
 
On 3 Aug 2004 13:35:57 -0700, pmolsen@one.net.au (Peter) wrote:

Are you saying I could attach a 1 Farad capacitor to the chip and not
overload the output???
Click to expand...
The HC outputs have an impedance that limits the current. I believe the limit
is something around 5-6mA, or so, with 5V. This means that for a 1F cap, you'd
be looking at a max rate of about 5mV/second rate of change. Slow.

Jon
 
On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 22:07:51 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan
<jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote:

On 3 Aug 2004 13:35:57 -0700, pmolsen@one.net.au (Peter) wrote:

Are you saying I could attach a 1 Farad capacitor to the chip and not
overload the output???

The HC outputs have an impedance that limits the current. I believe the limit
is something around 5-6mA, or so, with 5V. This means that for a 1F cap, you'd
be looking at a max rate of about 5mV/second rate of change. Slow.

Jon
Click to expand...
Most HCs will actually source a bunch of current, 50 mA into a short,
25 mA into +3 volts, roughly. But a single HC output won't be damaged
by driving flat-out in the pullup direction. If you shorted all the
outputs of a many-gate HC to ground, you could get it mighty hot.

The bus driver parts are even fiercer.

John
 
On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:37:38 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 22:07:51 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan
jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote:

On 3 Aug 2004 13:35:57 -0700, pmolsen@one.net.au (Peter) wrote:

Are you saying I could attach a 1 Farad capacitor to the chip and not
overload the output???

The HC outputs have an impedance that limits the current. I believe the limit
is something around 5-6mA, or so, with 5V. This means that for a 1F cap, you'd
be looking at a max rate of about 5mV/second rate of change. Slow.

Jon

Most HCs will actually source a bunch of current, 50 mA into a short,
25 mA into +3 volts, roughly. But a single HC output won't be damaged
by driving flat-out in the pullup direction. If you shorted all the
outputs of a many-gate HC to ground, you could get it mighty hot.
Click to expand...
Hmm. I suddenly got worried about my aging memory banks, so I just pulled down
the SN74HC595 datasheet from TI. It says +/-6mA output drive at 5V on the front
page! I think that's where I got my 5-6mA figure -- it stuck in my mind that
way.

It also gives an absolute package maximum of 70mA continuous and a continuous
output maximum of 35mA. But, as they also say, operating at these absolute
ratings is wrong-minded -- they are only to tell what maximum stress they can
tolerate before being damaged, not operate.

Did I miss something, then?

Jon
 
On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 02:27:24 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan
<jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote:

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:37:38 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 22:07:51 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan
jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote:

On 3 Aug 2004 13:35:57 -0700, pmolsen@one.net.au (Peter) wrote:

Are you saying I could attach a 1 Farad capacitor to the chip and not
overload the output???

The HC outputs have an impedance that limits the current. I believe the limit
is something around 5-6mA, or so, with 5V. This means that for a 1F cap, you'd
be looking at a max rate of about 5mV/second rate of change. Slow.

Jon

Most HCs will actually source a bunch of current, 50 mA into a short,
25 mA into +3 volts, roughly. But a single HC output won't be damaged
by driving flat-out in the pullup direction. If you shorted all the
outputs of a many-gate HC to ground, you could get it mighty hot.

Hmm. I suddenly got worried about my aging memory banks, so I just pulled down
the SN74HC595 datasheet from TI. It says +/-6mA output drive at 5V on the front
page! I think that's where I got my 5-6mA figure -- it stuck in my mind that
way.

It also gives an absolute package maximum of 70mA continuous and a continuous
output maximum of 35mA. But, as they also say, operating at these absolute
ratings is wrong-minded -- they are only to tell what maximum stress they can
tolerate before being damaged, not operate.

Did I miss something, then?

Jon
Click to expand...

My numbers were based on typical curves in the Motorola HC handbook,
confirmed by some measurements made some time back. The smaller
numbers you quote are probably guaranteed values for sustaining a
legal high or low level.

Hmmm (stands on table to reach dusty bookshelf) here's the TI 1988 HC
databook. Voh is typically 0.2 below Vcc at 6 mA load, which gives us
an output resistance of 33 ohms in the pullup direction. That would
extrapolate to 150 mA into ground, except it's nonlinear so you really
won't get that much.

One appnote in the back shows an HC04 dumping about 42 mA into ground,
20 mA into 3.8 volts.

Oh, cool, page 4-50 has the output curves. Standard HC has an initial
pullup slope (near Vcc) of 56 ohms, and short-circuit output of about
42 mA. The bus drivers are more like 26 ohms and 75 mA, typicals of
course.

So these parts theoretically exceed their own max current ratings when
shorted. I guess long-term damage is theoretically possible,
electromigration or something. Chargin a cap once in a while should be
no big deal. You could charge a farad in a minute roughly.

John
 
On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 20:10:46 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

snip
Oh, cool, page 4-50 has the output curves. Standard HC has an initial
pullup slope (near Vcc) of 56 ohms, and short-circuit output of about
42 mA. The bus drivers are more like 26 ohms and 75 mA, typicals of
course.
snip
Click to expand...
Ah, now this curve is what I couldn't find on the datasheet.

Thanks!

Jon
 
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